Template talk:Infobox ice hockey biography/Archive 2

2956:

infobox is just a summary of the most important information. Personally I would rather see both options gone and have nothing relating to nationality in the infobox than to have the clusterfuck that has been the nationality field for the last few years, but national teams was a compromise and a good one I think as there is absolutely no question if a player played on a national senior team or not. This is no different than our decision to leave off junior teams on the infobox which for some hockey fans would be just as important or more important than the nationality of someone who never played for their national team. Lines have to be drawn somewhere since the infobox is only a summary and the vast majority of information is supposed to be found in the article. Also there is only 3 people who expressed concern that I notice and one of which seems to be ok with it now that the flag is showing. -

2809:

they have played for or would play for if they haven't played for one yet, whereas people kept putting in every country they had citizenship in which is almost impossible to source and was never really the intention of the field (not even getting into the argument that citizenship does not equal nationality). Players who play in another country from that of their birth are not playing "internationally" they are just playing in other countries, playing internationally implies playing for a national team in an international tournament. This is in no way ignoring players, its just removing the POV editing that goes on surrounding players nationalities and replaces it with concrete fact, they either played for a national team or they did not. -

2864:

flag in the asian team page. How do you know that other than assuming it was the last citizenship he got? Did you find an article saying he renounced his other two citizenships and identifies as German? It wasn't just 7-8 people in the hockey project that made a project wide decision. The decision came about because we had multiple non-wp:hockey editors coming to us upset that we did things the way we did. So I would say we are in the 20's or 30's atleast of people who have wanted us to make this change over time. Especially the getting rid of flags. -

492: 1990:

unretired two years later, however in his retirement he marries a Canadian and therefore acquires Canadian citizenship while still living in Los Angeles. When he unretires he plays for the New York Rangers. Does he qualify for a Canadian flag as he played in a Canadian league under this proposal? Let's say he is traded by Portland to the Saskatoon Blades and then is drafted, does he then qualify for a Canadian flag? My problem would be that yes he is technically eligible for Team Canada as a result of his marriage, but would he use it?

2882:

sheet listed him as german if he has triple citizenship. Since the trade sheet is very recent, I went with german. You've already pointed out that IAR supersedes MOS, so people coming here wanting the flags removed don't really have any bearing on the changing of the field from nationality to national teams. For the actually discussion on changing that, I can see the !vote above, it was 6 people who expressed an opinion, later 2 people objected to it, and I'm now objecting to it as well.--

1756:. I think this would be too tricky to implement. Do we go solely by IIHF major tournaments? Any international representation? Lots of Canadians play for say, U17 or Team Ontario...would this make them eligibile? Do all US NTDP players become eligible automatically? Do all Soviet-born players get 2-3 fields? (USSR, CIS, new country...and if they switch it's 4!). I think this should be hammered out before potentially causing problems with flag removal/additions. -- 31: 2003:, the soccer people addressed this by only using the player's international experience. To illustrate their take, let's say Knowledge existed in the early 1990s, Petr Nedved would have a Czechoslovakian flag until 1994 when he appeared for Canada. He would then carry a Canadian flag until 1998 when he appeared for the Czech Republic, at which point it would show a Czech flag. This is probably the easiest way to address this. 2013:

arise in future. Since place of birth is listed on the template, all players who do not play internationally can be assumed to be of whatever nationality. If a player considers himself a different nationality, it can be addressed in the body of the article. The international experience infobox can be added to show where he plays internationally and voila the problems that have arisen between users will disappear.

2911:

the field. Anyone who is born in one country and goes to other countries to play in various leagues, is an international player and will have people in multiple countries interested in him. I would suggest that a player who only plays for the national team would probably have fewer international readers interested in him, unless he's playing for a national team in a country he wasn't born in.--

3188:

example of how a professional career is assumed by the infobox; just making "pro career" optional isn't sufficient due to the complicated logic of the infobox. Complicated logic can be a good thing but only if it takes into account all reasonable possibilities. It seems like the infobox was coded by someone who only planned to use it for NHL players.)

2255:

that the nationality is not important enough for the infobox and can be incorporated into the prose of the article, but the same could be said in regards to the national teams. So really, my biggest problem is that it seems to ignore the vast majority of NHL players who never played for their national team, something I don't think we should be doing.

2639: 97: 2599:

every player who has played as its their playing height and weight. You just need to go to a site like hockeydb.com to find it. There are many sources for this information. On the rare case that its not available for a player there are other options we could take, but I have yet to encounter a player that we didn't have the information for. -

1653:

obviously), and use it only with players who have actually played internationally. And yes, for players who have switched nationalities, multiple entries would be required. Such a change would necessitate a whole lot of work, however, as the field would have to be removed from hundreds, if not thousands, of articles.

2926:

himself as one and not the others that is the issue, unless a paper quotes him as saying he considers himself German or Russian etc and no longer any of the others there isn't much to go on and such reliable sources for most players are hard to come by as its not something your average paper would report on. -

2985:

It was you who mentioned important, so I was comparing with something else that was important to some people. What I am saying is that nationality is not defining of a player who hasn't played for their country. Whereas which way someone shoots is very defining of the type of player they are which is

2940:

That's fine, we can take that on a case by case basis. Trying to ignore the questions and issues with national team vs nationality won't make go away. 4 of the 9 users who have weighed in on it have raised objections. I find it POV to assume only players who have played for their national team should

2863:

It might be important to their playing in context to the team/league but it doesn't bare on them as much and as mentioned it can be covered in the prose where those sorts of impacts can be explained. The POV comes from people guessing which citizenship he identifies as. ie you selected Germany as his

2012:

Another option would be to eliminate this field and merge the separate international experience infobox (or at least info) into this one or simply leave the international experience infobox as a separate infobox. Otherwise, I fear that no matter what form we choose, this will cause some discussion to

1989:

This makes sense to me, except for a few cases. Let's say player X was born in Finland and is drafted in the CHL Import Draft by the Portland Winterhawks. He plays his few years in the WHL and is drafted by the LA Kings. He plays 10 years in the NHL and decides to retire. He pulls a "Brett Favre" and

1343:

I think he means that the nationality field in this infobox is supposed to be used to indicate the player's national team. The guideline recommends so, but the infobox instructions are unclear on this. There is also a separate birth_place field with country (the guideline is supposed to be moved from

1109:

As mentioned earlier in the dicussion microformating can be achieved with a hidden name parameter, so showing the name does not affect this template being microformat compatible. As Krm500 mentioned above, if we are labeling the table so as not to be confused about its purpose, then we should name it

3086:

I would say that since NHL players (albeit very few) have played at that level, it can be considered to pass. I'd say a senior appearance in an IIHF sanctioned tournament would qualify someone. I'll have to double check, but I think the soccer people (who I figure are most adept at the international

2910:

Uhm no, we have many reliable sources. I was unaware that if a newspaper article, for example, reported his citizenship it would be unreliable. I can't imagine the AL picked a citizenship out of thin air without this guy or his agent doing some paperwork. Regardless, it doesn't change the issue with

2881:

I only found out about the other citizenships after I googled him and found the elite prospects page which notes he has triple citizenships. Which I linked to in the first post of this thread. There was no guessing. My only guess was trying to figure out why eliteprospects and the asian league trade

2848:

Not an overwhelming one, and 7 or 8 people commenting on it is hardly enough to consider it a project wide consensus. That affects a lot of articles. In the asian league citizenship is important because each team is limited to a certain number of import players and occasionally they get players from

2823:

That depends on your definition of "international". Mikhail Nemirovsky has played in russian leagues, german leagues, western leagues and now the asian league. I don't think he needs to play for Team Russia, Germany or Canada to be considered an "international" player. There is nothing point of view

2501:

Oh and one problem with this is you can only do senior teams. However, based on the comments by Resolute above about the other discussion, I think it was decided to only use senior teams? Or am I mistaken. If someone else can think of a way to code it to allow both then by all means let me know. But

2254:

My only concern is what about players who have not played for their national team. I would prefer to see them still have their nationality included in the infobox, as it is rather defining of the player, and the place of birth is not always the best way to determine such a case. While some have said

3034:

The template seems skewed toward professional players, although that may be primarily an artifact of the documentation not being clear on how to treat amateurs. To that end, I'm not sure I'm using it right for non-professional players; the dependencies and conditionals caused by the interaction of

2955:

But we aren't saying others aren't worthy of having it noted, we are saying that for the vast majority of them it is already noted in their place of birth elsewhere in the infobox and for the few players that have multiple ones that it is also listed in the lead sentence already (or should be). The

2808:

Right, but the infobox isn't meant to list every single piece of information about a player. That is what the prose is for. The infobox is only meant to list key aspects. You illustrated the exact reason the change was proposed. The nationality field was only supposed to represent the National team

1521:

Because it links to the national team of said country, which this field does not always signify that they played for the national team. While it is true that if a player played for the Canadian national team they will obviously have a Canadian flag. But not all people with a Canadian flag will have

1245:

Just a note for the future, but if you are going to invite people to a discussion you need to do so in a neutral manner otherwise you are violating WP:CANVASS. This message is clearly not neutral. It also has misinformation, in that I have said no such thing. Please do not misrepresent me in such a

1085:

If you want other opinions, I'll add mine as well. Like Andrewsc said above, there is no point in adding the name to the infobox when the article has the name right there in the title and (in nearly every biography article, if not all) as the first words of the article itself. Regardless of whether

752:

Other infoboxes do this because the W3C suggests that tables are given a clear caption to indicate the purpose of the table. And if there's project-wide consensus to title infoboxes, which there is, then individual WikiProjects aren't really in a position to opt out of it because they happen not to

2468:

Yes the flags are now in and the links are shorter. Just type in the country name in the field and the ih template will take care of the link and the flag. As for the field name I am not sure I could change it to Ntl Team. Int can be confusing to some people as can be seen in the discussion below.

2400:

Well I am going to run AWB through it to change those that are obvious fixes. There isn't much to fix persay as the old nationality fields will no longer show up just like many other fields we have deprecated in the past so there will be no actual mistakes, just missing information. They will just

2598:

I am not sure why you don't like it. Pro Clubs is an accurate description of the pro clubs (aka pro teams. remember clubs is the term most common around the world to describe a team. its not just north american readers here) they played for in their career. Height and Weight is available for most

1438:

While I am abivalent on the use of flagicons - they can stay or they can go - the fact that other sport projects do things a certain way holds no value to me as an argument, because frankly, many of the other sporting projects have standards that I find completely ridiculous. And, fwiw, I see no

1263:

I'm sorry what part of that is not neutral. I did not state my position. I merely stated that you were proposing a change to guideline. I followed WP:CANVASS to the letter and stated exactly what you are proposing, you wish to change the guideline to say that names are required in infoboxes. What

3174:

It means that the player is a prospect in the italicized team's organization, while he is playing for the non-italicized team. As far as the pro-amateur thing, perhaps we could make the "pro career" field optional, then add another optional function called "playing career" for non-pro players.

2838:

No, but there seems to be a consensus that it's not important enough information to be included in the infobox. If a player has played for an national team (that is, an official nation-authorized team that competes in international tournaments), that's highly relevant information. The player's

2793:

I don't agree with the change, there are plenty of players who play internationally who weren't part of their home country's national teams. They've gone to other countries to play. I agree with Kaiser and Twas that this completely ignores those players. Not only in the NHL but many of the other

2970:

Twas now also seemed concerned about what to do with players who don't play for a national team. The only response given was to "ignore it", which doesn't seem like much of a solution. I've noticed several times people throw around the terms "many" or "99%", has anyone actually checked if it is

3187:

OK, here's the problem. If I fill in just the "team" and "league" fields, the team is italicized in the infobox. If I fill in just the "prospect_team" and "prospect_league" fields, no team shows up in the infobox at all. How do I get just one team to show up, unitalicized? (This is another

2925:

Being that the AL is notoriously bad for having incorrect information, yes I do expect that they probably just listed Germany because that was the last place he played. Papers reporting him as having a certain citizenship was never my point, those are reliable. Its whether or not he identifies

1652:

While I remain neutral on the existence of the flagicons, I do recognize that they are redundant, since the birthplace field lists the same country 99% of the time. Perhaps we could rename the Nationality field to something along the lines of "International representation" (something shorter,

1702:

I personally don't like the flags. Nerdy/geeky/nationalistic/needless eye candy, especially if all it represents nationality. And if I had been born in the USSR, I would probably not want the hammer and sickle next to my name. But I can see it looks appropriate on an international play entry.

2778:

Since the change hadn't been implemented yet to make it clear that we are no longer using nationality, I have updated the template with the proposed version. The ntl_team field is now in effect and all the nationality fields will no longer appear and are subject to a bot/awb removing them.

2516:

I thought we had decided that Junior was ok, so long as it was at an IIHF tournament (U18, U20 for men, U22 for women, but not U17, Viking Cup etc.). That's why I added those fields as such to the respective player pages. But if we are only going Senior are we still sticking with IIHF only

1315:

It is a guideline and not a policy, so if it were to be removed it shall be up for discussion. But in this case I don't see any need since this infobox adhere to the guideline; Nationality is used to inform readers of which country the player represent, or would represent, in international

2306:

Ignore the field. For an overwhelming majority of the players, their birth country and nationality will be the same, so there is no need to duplicate information. For the few that aren't, I am of the group that feels noting this in the lead is sufficient. Ultimately, I don't find

1021:

But there has been no one actually supporting you. You can only claim lack of objection when there are no objections. But there have been some. It doesn't matter if this is the only box that doesn't or does use them. There is no requirement that every infobox have a name in them.

3045:

I guess this depends on what you consider an amateur player? Other than being an NHL draft pick or winning a major award in the NCAA or Canadian Hockey League, hasn't the hockey project basically decreed that the rest are non-notable at least on that basis alone?

317:

To be clear, I don't disagree with your proposal, just since its such a highly used template that I thought maybe it should be mentioned there. If you feel its necessary then go ahead, though I too think its pretty pointless, except perhaps for the microformat.

2171:

to automatically link to the player's national team and the appropriate flag if we so choose. I've also moved some of the fields around, since it seems to me that personal data (birth, death, height, weight) and hockey info (teams, draft) should be grouped.

1774:

I think you might be making it more confusing than necessary. We would count anyone who played on any level of international competition for a national team. And I don't think there are that many players who would have more than one flag that it is an issue.

304:

While I find adding a name parameter to be pointless in general, as it is obvious who the infobox is referring to by the name of the article, if the hCard microformat is viewed as a useful feature, and this is required, then I have no issue with adding it.

3087:

sporting guidelines as its intricately weaved into that sport.) allow for anyone who "caps" for their nation in World Cup Qualifying or UEFA Cup qualifiying count. So this would be no different than a soccer player from the Faroe Islands getting a page.

916:

Well you have only made a bunch of statements without backing them up, while I have been referring to the MOS. And there is nothing confusing with consensus, we have a consensus regarding names which comply with the MOS so there shouldn't be a problem.

1344:

birth_date field), which suggests that the nationality field does not indicate place of birth. However, there is two fields for nationality. That might be a topic for discussion, since the guideline recommends the "most apt" country is to be used. --

3220:

Seems like it could stand to be re-done. If I feel adventurous I may take a stab (in a sandbox, of course) at re-jiggering it to be clear in all applicable cases, though that will likely involve adding new fields and repurposing some old ones.

1133:

Right but all I am saying is that they are not restricted from doing so. ie there is no standard saying that they can't do so, and on few sites about microformats I just searched on google they actually explain how and why you would do so.

3035:

the various team and league fields are far from clear to me, even after several attempts. Maybe if the documentation was cleared up, it would be easier to figure out how to list players who do not have a professional team affiliation.

1632:

For me, the flagicons should go. Djsasso's point about linking is a good one. Further, some players who have never played international hockey will be eligible for more than one country - how do we assign a sporting nationality to them?

3107:

On the few currently playing notable male amateur players we tend to just put TBA in their pro-career start. For female amateur and pre-professional hockey players I know I and some other people just use a general bio infobox for them.

1907:

There is consensus to change the name of the field. I hesitate to say there is a consensus to remove the flag, but there is no consensus to keep it. Perhaps the flag discussion should start again on the basis of the new meaning of the

3230:(ec)As well prospect team and prospect league are meant to be for players who have already been drafted and are for the teams they are currently playing on while you still need the team and league for the NHL team they belong to. - 2971:

really that many players? In terms of what is important, nationality is important for a lot of people, frankly it could be considered more important than which way someone shoots if you want to start ranking info by importance.--

2986:

a direct impact on their notability. The fact they hold a german passport has not defined their notability in most cases unless they have used it in some way to achieve something notable like play for their national team. -

1167:

Right and most of the people objecting have said that there is no added convenience for our users since the name of the subject is in bold on the very first line of the article if not already the title of the article.

1358:

I will have to find the link, but this has been discussed at length and came down to the fact that flags will continue to be used in hockey infobox. I forget on where the hockey flag preferences page is on WP:HOCKEY

1952:

I think this would level out any other flag issues we have under the current "nationality" field, and in turn works for all other WP lists that use the nationality field. In the case of listings, use only flag 2.

3206:

Yes I believe that is the case. And as for only being intended for pro's yes I believe this template was originally just an NHL player infobox and people just started using it on every hockey player. -

2239:

Since this would deprecate the Nationality field, and require that editors add the Intl_team parameter to hundreds of articles over time, I've asked for more input at WT:Hockey before implementing.

2311:

to be all that defining for a player who doesn't play internationally. Certainly not any more defining than their ancestry. But, this is why I wanted wider input before deciding on the change.

1086:

other infoboxes use this method, there is no benefit to adding the name to the page for a third time, and it will just create extra work when there is much more productive work that can be done.

694:

Or indeed any other infobox on the encyclopedia. I'd prefer it were an HTML caption, but baby steps here. I've made some further tweaks to the sandbox code but I'm not ready to propose them yet.

1666:

This could probably be rigged up in AWB if there is consesus to do this, might want to link from the main wp:hockey talk page to this discussion though as it will affect thousands of articles. -

1100:

I dunno, I like the clean design of the current template, but Andy has a point. Unlabeled tables of information can be confusing, and the microformatting argument is likewise compelling.

2763:

THe nationality field has been changed if you see above to only be teams they played internationally for. There are no players as far as I know who have played for 3 national teams. -

1065:

Agree with the design of the current template. No compelling reason to add a redundant name field in large bold font at the top of the box, when the article name is already there. —

3064:, who is still in college, undrafted, and far from assured of a pro career, NHL or otherwise. Yet he's played for a national hockey team, thus meeting the requirements set forth in 2417:"National Teams" takes up two lines, is there something shorter we could use to make the infobox be more uniform? Also, is there an article that "national team" could be linked to?-- 2435:

One more thing, but should we be using such long links? Or could we make it so that "CANsr" automatically puts the correct field into the box? Also, what's the stance on flags?--

81: 76: 71: 59: 2849:

other countries who may have been born in Korea, Japan or China, but now have foreign citizenship which changes their status on the team. Its important in various contexts.--

2576:

please be edited to say either "Pro teams" or simply "Played for" instead of "Pro clubs"? Right now, anyone who has retired has "clubs" in their infobox, which is ridiculous!

2377:

I think it was decided but as usual the change never made so I have gone ahead and made the change. This will stop all the guessing that goes behind the nationality field. -

982:

I hate to say it but I think you are seeing that there isn't any consensus. Because no one said yeah we definitely need it. People have pretty much said no, or I guess so. -

1949:

born in canada, citizen, played in and for canada. Has american dual citizenship now but there is nothing hockey related to it so only CAN applies. (same goes for Yzerman)

2896:

But the trade sheet is what someone else considers him. The only reliable source when it comes to nationality is their mouth. This is why we have such a problem with it. -

1578:

The field is about their nationality which is determined by which team they have played for internationally or would play for internationally should they make the team. -

2125:

It seems Wiki-wide, all instances of the template have 2 closing square brackets displaying directly underneath the image of the player. Is there a reason for this?

3131:

I agree. We should probably just make the pro career start field non-manditory. I am not sure how to make a field non-mandatory though. I will see what I can see. -

1226:

Andy has proposed changing the guideline that says we do not need to use a name at the top of the infobox to say that all infoboxes must have the name at top

2363:

Out of curiosity, did we ever reach a consensus on this? I noticed that the fervor over this has died off, but I'm curious whether we decided anything yet?

2401:

slowly be removed over time. As well any less obvious additions of the national teams will be added as articles are edited as is normally done over time. -

1439:

reason to IAR a guideline anyway. There seems to be no consensus to change at this point, so I would suggest that policy overrules the MOSFLAG guideline.

727:

I just don't get it, the infobox sits right next to the lead and under the page title, where you clearly can see the header and bolded name. Just because

169:, please see those pages; but, in brief, it tells computers (such as individual users' and search spiders) what the information in that infobox is about. 3197:

After reviewing several NHLers' articles, I can't find a single one in which his NHL team isn't italicized. Maybe that line is just always italicized?

1227: 886:

The MOS state that it can be done your way, and other wikiprojects can use it as far as I'm concerned, but the consensus here is that we choose not to. —

47: 17: 1931:

Should we not go through with this, and keep the flags as they are, I propose the qualifier to avoid "dual citizenship" disputes or other problems is:

842:. This does not need to match the article's Knowledge title. It should not contain a link. Avoid {{PAGENAME}} as pages may be moved for disambiguation. 568:

The addition of a name at the top of the box has not been agreed to. And if I recall that is all this code is doing? However, I will make the change. -

2579:

Could the "height" and "weight" fields please be made optional? This data is not available for every notable player, particularly those who are dead!

209:

OK, if there are no current objections (in which case let's debate them) I propose to add a name parameter, as used in most biographical infoboxes.

135:

I think the name parameter has been rejected in the past. Not really sure what the other thing you mentioned would do when it comes to infoboxes. -

1789:

Perhaps...still, 3-4 fields would be needed for those who ran the USSR/CIS/United Team/Russia gauntlet. It's not a lot of players, thankfully.--

856: 848: 2351:

is also considering limiting the field to just senior team to avoid confusions and controversies with non-national national junior squads.

1317: 1255: 1191: 1159: 1049: 1013: 973: 947: 908: 878: 813: 787: 682: 622: 540: 482: 409: 358: 296: 260: 218: 2164: 2160: 423:{| class="db-aW5mb2JveCB2Yw" cellpadding="2" |- ! class="db-Zm4" colspan="2" {{!}} {{{name|{{PAGENAME}}}}}  153:

Because it was not wanted in the past doesn't mean that consensus can't change now ;-) Do you know why it was not considered necessary?

2839:

current nationality is also important information, but not as important to his hockey career and thus is not needed in the infobox.

1536:

Krm500 and Bamsefar75 wrote above that the nationality field indicates the player's national team eligibility. Is that incorrect?--

1406:

which is only a guideline. And not having flags gets in the way of making a better encyclopedia, so its clearly an IAR situation. -

778:

There is also project-wide consensus to deploy the hCard microformat in biographical infoboxes; and that requires a name property.

1329:

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by " But in this case I don't see any need since this infobox adhere to the guideline". --

3122:

That seems an odd "solution". The general bio infobox doesn't contain hockey-specific fields like "shoots" and national teams.

2502:

I think only listing senior teams is consistent with the fact we only list pro teams in the infobox and leave out junior teams. -

400:

I see that someone has already reverted the template, so I can't see the effects; but can anybody suggest what's wrong, please?

2292: 2824:

in listing a players citizenship if he has more than one and routinely plays in countries which aren't his birth country.--

2347:

Can do with both changes. I pluralized it for consistency with the "Professional teams" heading, but a side discussion at

834:(outdent) This new feature even disregard the MOS for infoboxes so I don't know where you are getting your statements from. 2338: 1913: 1690: 1597: 1569: 1541: 1512: 1483: 1462: 1306: 1076: 838:

The top text line should be bold and contain the full (official) name of the article's subject; for people common name is

433:

The problem was that you put the two cells in the same row. I also corrected several other mistakes—some old, some new. (

1000:

months were on the grounds of fixable aesthetics and an MOS clause which was changed some time ago. AFAICT, this is the

728: 2039:. Perhaps we can adapt that medal table to allow for finishes that are not top 3 and then it fixes all these problems. 769:? And a name does not equal a "clear caption to indicate the purpose of the table", Summary/Short info would do that. — 2661:

There is a boo-boo, when I just previewed it, there is an extra set of }} showing up after the third nationality. See

1842:: What implications will this have on all the other charts/listings we have with nationality? Rosters, drafts, etc.?-- 1381:? In that case, the former policy should be adhered with regards to flag icons. B/c other sport wikiprojects follow 669:

There is no reason why it can't be styled, if desired. Have a look at other biographical infoboxes, such as that on

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FYI, as of this time, the automatic flag icon is part of the nationality and nationality2 fields in the template.

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never played in south africa; never had canadian citizenship so only germany applies. Brett Hull situation -: -->

1550:

Correct. But the point is that it would give the impression they were on the team if we linked directly to it. -

1212:(outdent)That is exactly what I wrote above. Adding the name to the infobox contributes nothing to the article. 3092: 3051: 2526: 2368: 2211: 2130: 2044: 2018: 2334: 1909: 1686: 1593: 1565: 1537: 1508: 1479: 1458: 3150:

On a related note, what does it mean when the first listed team in a hockey player's infobox is italicized?

2035:

Turns out there is no such thing as the international experience infobox. It is the medals table as shown on

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We wouldn't need multiple fields for multiple teams. Just use linebreaks as we do with professional teams.

1251: 1217: 1187: 1155: 1091: 1045: 1009: 969: 943: 904: 899:" is an interesting concept; but even so, I do not believe that you are correct, from the discussion above. 874: 809: 783: 678: 618: 536: 503: 478: 405: 380: 354: 292: 256: 214: 174: 126: 108: 114:), I think that this template should include a "name" parameter. It could also then be upgraded to emit an 467: 343: 245: 2705: 2348: 927: 758: 699: 270: 1807:

Yeah I don't think it would be a problem to add a couple more. They only show up if needed anyways :) -

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It seems to me that that part of the MoS is not reflecting current consensus, nor current practise.

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Using the flag in addition to the country's name is redundant. I think the flagicons should go.--

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Could someone toss in an extra nationality field so that I can fill out his info box properly?--

606:

Thank you. I think this has been agreed; and the change doesn't just add the name, but also an

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Do not like. Can we use "Int" instead and use flags, ignore all rules, WP:HOCKEY are rebels! —

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Not one of them has said that; and had they done, they would have done so without foundation.

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I don't think anyone noticed your comment in the midst of the below. I can easily fix this. -

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It clearly also state that pagename should not be used, so we don't get horror examples like

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born in canada, played in canada. Canada flag. Played for USA, USA is flag 2. Gretzky -: -->

1493:

That template links to a different article and would not always be correct for this usage. -

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None, this is just the infobox template talk page, so it would just be for this template. -

498:

please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Consider using a template sandbox.

424:|- {{#if:{{{image|}}}| {{!}} colspan="2" {{!}} ] {{#if:{{{image_caption<includeonly: --> 3338: 3310: 3296: 3281: 2941:

be worthy of having it noted, regardless of how many countries and leagues they play in.--

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The consensus actually appears to be to leave the flag and change the name of the field. -

1737:. The flagicon should not be automatic, It can be decided on a article per article basis. 1386: 1345: 670: 438: 1606:

No, it would be incorrect since the player may never have played for his national team. —

273:

first since they have a big stake and not alot of people probably watch this talk page. -

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This isn't just about emitting a microformat; but also about convenience for our users.

230:{{#if:{{{image|}}}| {{!}} colspan="2" {{!}} ] {{#if:{{{image_caption<includeonly: --> 3265: 2584: 2277:

The majority of players will never play for a national team; what do we do for them? —

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biographical infobox, throughout Knowledge, which does not display the subject's name.

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Oh I didn't say it couldn't change. I think it just had to do with being redundant. -

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The endash used to separate the career_start and career_end shouldn't be spaced per

1110:

Summary or something like that, not just put the name of the subject as the label. -

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Does Division II World Championship equal highest amateur level of a sport...? —

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is unnecessary. Also the field should be called Ntl_team instead of Intl_team.--

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is having issues with it on individual articles, (see these talk page sections:

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Template code is screwed up now, infoboxes with images become twice as wide... —

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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I have a player article I'm creating and the individual has triple citizenship.

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played for the national team. Basically it creates an incorrect association. -

2206:

That seems to solve the issue that the two were having. Let's go with this.

1124:

Yes, but as Andy pointed out, microformats should not use hidden fields.

938:

months. And your claims of "consensus here" are not backed up by the MoS.

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Agree with SaskatchewanSenator - 'National team' seems the way to go. --

229:{| class="db-aW5mb2JveA" cellpadding="2"  926:

No; I've referred to the complete absence of objection, here and at

441:, not a parameter, and "toccolours" is a class name, not a color). — 607: 163: 115: 104:

In common with the vast majority of biographical infoboxes (e.g.

1592:

So we agree that the link to the national team is appropriate?--

1286:

Can someone remove the flagicon from the nationality field, per

731:

display the subjects name at the top doesn't mean we need too. —

2391:

So who's going to go through and fix all of the articles? =)

1564:

If the field is about the national team it should link to it.--

795:

Can be implemented, but the name does not have to be visible. —

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I knew that because the trade sheet identified him as German.

1685:

I like reducing the redundancy. "National team" would work.--

1474:

If the flag icons are kept this template should be using the

1878:

I have removed the automatic flag per the above discussion.

2708:, who played for Czechoslovakia, Canada, and Slovakia. -- 2163:

Per the above discussion, I've created a test example at

2075:) and I have suggested he come back here to resolve them. 287:

Done; though I do think my posts here give fair warning.

713:

I actually think the example looks horrible as well... -

2704:

I don't understand how to use this. I'm trying to edit

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if they decide to play for another country nationally.

2722:

I fixed his page. Take a look to see how it works. -

241:Can someone please check my code, before I make an 3305:A reply would be the minimum courtesy expected. -- 3268:. Currently the infobox is showing something like 2167:. I've left the flag off, but we could integrate 2483:I also added a ntl_team_2 field for players like 2165:Template talk:Infobox Ice Hockey Player/Alternate 2161:Template talk:Infobox Ice Hockey Player/Alternate 3333:I thought that was probably the case. Thanks, -- 3160:It's the team they are playing for I believe. - 836: 2156:Replacing nationality field with national team 2487:who have been on two national senior teams. - 8: 269:Personally I would take the suggestion to 18:Template talk:Infobox ice hockey biography 2517:tournaments or does tournaments like the 804:Microformats should not use hidden data. 2794:professional leagues around the world.-- 930:, from August 2008, until yours. That's 2140:Yup typo on my part in the above fix. - 1288:MOS:FLAG#Use_of_flags_for_sportspeople 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2329:I like it, but I think the plural on 964:Does anyone else wish to contribute? 7: 1935:first country they played hockey in 996:Far from it; the only objections in 531:has provided corrected code, above. 3291:Any chance this could be fixed? -- 2121:Stray square brackets in template? 24: 2093:same character at my neck again, 417:I believe this version will work: 2637: 490: 95: 29: 1946:Result: Kolzig situation -: --> 3240:15:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3226:15:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3216:15:40, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3202:15:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3193:15:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3183:14:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3170:14:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3155:00:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3141:21:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3127:19:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3118:12:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3097:04:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3082:03:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 3073:19:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3056:05:14, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 3040:02:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2996:03:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 2981:01:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 2966:12:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 2951:05:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 2936:03:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 2921:00:18, 29 September 2009 (UTC) 2906:12:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2892:03:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2874:12:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2859:09:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2844:02:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2834:01:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2819:16:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2804:15:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2789:12:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2773:12:42, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2700:09:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2686:07:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2675:03:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2657:02:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2632:23:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC) 2609:13:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC) 2593:12:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC) 2545:12:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2535:I would say stick with IIHF. - 2531:04:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 2512:13:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2497:13:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2479:13:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2464:10:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 2449:21:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2431:21:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2411:14:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2396:13:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2387:13:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 2373:01:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC) 1507:Why would it not be correct?-- 755:Chris Cunningham (not at work) 696:Chris Cunningham (not at work) 463:Thank you. I've added another 339:No comments, so I've added an 222:23:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC) 1: 3286:13:40, 30 November 2009 (UTC) 1476:ice hockey flag icon template 1316:competitions governed by the 849:Manual of Style for infoboxes 2746:01:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC) 2732:00:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC) 2718:00:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC) 1264:part of that is incorrect? - 508:11:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC) 486:17:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC) 451:17:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC) 427:''{{{image_caption}}}''}}}} 413:16:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC) 395:16:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC) 385:10:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC) 362:20:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC) 233:''{{{image_caption}}}''}}}} 2359:20:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 2343:20:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 2319:03:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 2302:02:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 2265:23:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 2247:22:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 2230:22:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 2216:04:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC) 2198:22:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 2183:17:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 2111:00:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC) 2049:08:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 2023:08:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 1829:17:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC) 1274:23:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 1259:22:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 1240:22:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 1222:00:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 1195:20:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1178:20:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1163:19:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1144:14:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1129:14:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1120:13:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1105:12:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 1096:22:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 1081:21:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 1053:21:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 1032:03:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 1017:21:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 992:01:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 977:18:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC) 328:20:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC) 313:20:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC) 300:19:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC) 283:16:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC) 264:11:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC) 226:My proposal is to replace: 200:17:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 178:10:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 145:15:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC) 130:11:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC) 3365: 3301:07:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC) 2665:after the Canadian flag.-- 1985:20:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 1970:20:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 1870:20:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 1856:20:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC) 1747:00:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC) 1676:12:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC) 1661:03:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC) 1643:03:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC) 1611:00:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC) 1602:20:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1588:19:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1574:18:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1560:18:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1546:18:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1532:12:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1517:11:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1503:11:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1488:11:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC) 1467:19:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 1447:14:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 1416:12:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 1395:03:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC) 1369:13:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC) 1354:06:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC) 1339:22:28, 20 March 2009 (UTC) 1325:21:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC) 93: 2220:I've no problem with it. 2150:20:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 2135:19:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 2087:20:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 1918:21:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC) 1903:19:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC) 1888:19:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC) 1817:22:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 1803:21:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC) 1785:17:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 1770:17:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC) 1730:21:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 1713:21:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 1695:06:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC) 951:23:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 922:23:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 912:13:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 891:13:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 882:13:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 864:02:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 817:13:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 800:13:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 791:13:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 774:02:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 762:01:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC) 736:22:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 723:20:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 703:20:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 686:19:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 663:18:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 648:17:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 626:19:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 578:14:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC) 544:21:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC) 3343:19:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC) 3329:19:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC) 3315:19:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC) 3060:The specific example is 1309:) 22:35, March 20, 2009 121:. Would anyone object? 1250:(User:Pigsonthewing); 1186:(User:Pigsonthewing); 1154:(User:Pigsonthewing); 1044:(User:Pigsonthewing); 1008:(User:Pigsonthewing); 968:(User:Pigsonthewing); 942:(User:Pigsonthewing); 903:(User:Pigsonthewing); 873:(User:Pigsonthewing); 853: 808:(User:Pigsonthewing); 782:(User:Pigsonthewing); 677:(User:Pigsonthewing); 617:(User:Pigsonthewing); 535:(User:Pigsonthewing); 477:(User:Pigsonthewing); 425:|</includeonly: --> 404:(User:Pigsonthewing); 353:(User:Pigsonthewing); 291:(User:Pigsonthewing); 255:(User:Pigsonthewing); 231:|</includeonly: --> 213:(User:Pigsonthewing); 42:of past discussions. 1975:Makes sense to me. - 175:Talk to Andy Mabbett 127:Talk to Andy Mabbett 3272:where it should be 2335:SaskatchewanSenator 1910:SaskatchewanSenator 1687:SaskatchewanSenator 1594:SaskatchewanSenator 1566:SaskatchewanSenator 1538:SaskatchewanSenator 1509:SaskatchewanSenator 1480:SaskatchewanSenator 1459:SaskatchewanSenator 2663:Mikhail_Nemirovsky 2615:triple nationality 2572:Can the parameter 2188:I like the idea. - 1999:As I mentioned in 1246:dishonest manner. 847:Fourth paragraph, 2447: 2429: 2300: 2109: 2085: 1968: 1854: 1801: 1768: 1311: 1297:comment added by 1282:Remove flagicons? 426:}}}|<br /: --> 232:}}}|<br /: --> 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3356: 3275: 3271: 2683: 2679:Think I got it. 2644: 2641: 2640: 2575: 2567:Teams, not clubs 2519:Euro Hockey Tour 2441: 2423: 2286: 2103: 2076: 1962: 1939:were a citizen, 1848: 1795: 1762: 1310: 1291: 851: 643:Looks awful... — 494: 493: 472: 466: 436: 375: 369: 348: 342: 250: 244: 162:For more on the 113: 107: 99: 98: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3364: 3363: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3355: 3354: 3353: 3273: 3269: 3258: 3032: 3030:Amateur players 2681: 2642: 2638: 2617: 2573: 2569: 2158: 2123: 1929: 1650: 1292: 1284: 852: 846: 753:be used to it. 729:other infoboxes 673:, for example. 671:Tim Berners-Lee 491: 470: 464: 434: 428: 373: 367: 346: 340: 248: 242: 234: 111: 105: 102: 101: 96: 92: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 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2118: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2113: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2052: 2051: 2041:Shootmaster 44 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2015:Shootmaster 44 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 1994: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1928: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1837: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1819: 1750: 1749: 1732: 1715: 1697: 1679: 1678: 1649: 1646: 1630: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1615: 1614: 1613: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1455: 1454: 1453: 1452: 1451: 1450: 1449: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1420: 1419: 1418: 1356: 1283: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1210: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1058: 1057: 1056: 1055: 962: 961: 960: 959: 958: 957: 956: 955: 954: 953: 934:objections in 844: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 823: 822: 821: 820: 819: 776: 743: 742: 741: 740: 739: 738: 708: 707: 706: 705: 689: 688: 666: 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3076: 3075: 3074: 3071: 3067: 3063: 3062:Daniel Spivak 3059: 3058: 3057: 3053: 3049: 3044: 3043: 3042: 3041: 3038: 3029: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2984: 2983: 2982: 2978: 2974: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2963: 2959: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2948: 2944: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2933: 2929: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2918: 2914: 2909: 2908: 2907: 2903: 2899: 2895: 2894: 2893: 2889: 2885: 2880: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2871: 2867: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2856: 2852: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2842: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2831: 2827: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2801: 2797: 2792: 2791: 2790: 2786: 2782: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2770: 2766: 2747: 2743: 2739: 2736:Thank You. -- 2735: 2734: 2733: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2715: 2711: 2707: 2706:Peter Šťastný 2703: 2702: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2690:Looks good!-- 2689: 2688: 2687: 2684: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2672: 2668: 2664: 2660: 2659: 2658: 2654: 2650: 2647: 2636: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2629: 2625: 2621: 2614: 2610: 2606: 2602: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2594: 2590: 2586: 2578: 2571: 2570: 2566: 2546: 2542: 2538: 2534: 2533: 2532: 2528: 2524: 2520: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2509: 2505: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2494: 2490: 2486: 2482: 2480: 2476: 2472: 2467: 2466: 2465: 2462: 2458: 2450: 2445: 2440: 2439: 2434: 2432: 2427: 2422: 2421: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2408: 2404: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2394: 2390: 2389: 2388: 2384: 2380: 2376: 2375: 2374: 2370: 2366: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2357: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2340: 2336: 2332: 2331:National team 2328: 2320: 2317: 2314: 2310: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2298: 2294: 2290: 2285: 2284: 2283: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2266: 2262: 2258: 2257:Kaiser matias 2253: 2252: 2251: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2245: 2242: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2219: 2218: 2217: 2213: 2209: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2199: 2195: 2191: 2187: 2186: 2185: 2184: 2181: 2178: 2173: 2170: 2166: 2162: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2120: 2112: 2107: 2102: 2101: 2096: 2092: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2084: 2080: 2074: 2070: 2066: 2062: 2058: 2057: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2024: 2020: 2016: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2002: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1982: 1978: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1966: 1961: 1960: 1954: 1950: 1944: 1942: 1938: 1934: 1927:Alt. Proposal 1926: 1919: 1915: 1911: 1906: 1905: 1904: 1900: 1896: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1885: 1881: 1871: 1867: 1863: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1852: 1847: 1846: 1841: 1838: 1830: 1827: 1824: 1820: 1818: 1814: 1810: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1799: 1794: 1793: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1766: 1761: 1760: 1755: 1752: 1751: 1748: 1744: 1740: 1736: 1733: 1731: 1727: 1723: 1719: 1716: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1701: 1698: 1696: 1692: 1688: 1684: 1681: 1680: 1677: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1664: 1663: 1662: 1659: 1656: 1647: 1645: 1644: 1640: 1636: 1612: 1609: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1599: 1595: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1585: 1581: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1571: 1567: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1557: 1553: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1529: 1525: 1520: 1519: 1518: 1514: 1510: 1506: 1505: 1504: 1500: 1496: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1489: 1485: 1481: 1477: 1468: 1464: 1460: 1456: 1448: 1445: 1442: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1428: 1417: 1413: 1409: 1405: 1401: 1398: 1397: 1396: 1392: 1388: 1384: 1380: 1376: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1366: 1362: 1357: 1355: 1351: 1347: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1336: 1332: 1328: 1327: 1326: 1323: 1319: 1314: 1313: 1312: 1308: 1304: 1300: 1296: 1289: 1281: 1275: 1271: 1267: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1257: 1253: 1249: 1244: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1237: 1233: 1229: 1224: 1223: 1219: 1215: 1214:Kaiser matias 1196: 1193: 1189: 1185: 1181: 1180: 1179: 1175: 1171: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1161: 1157: 1153: 1149: 1145: 1141: 1137: 1132: 1131: 1130: 1127: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1117: 1113: 1108: 1107: 1106: 1103: 1099: 1098: 1097: 1093: 1089: 1088:Kaiser matias 1084: 1083: 1082: 1078: 1075: 1072: 1068: 1064: 1063: 1054: 1051: 1047: 1043: 1039: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1020: 1019: 1018: 1015: 1011: 1007: 1003: 999: 995: 994: 993: 989: 985: 981: 980: 979: 978: 975: 971: 967: 952: 949: 945: 941: 937: 933: 929: 925: 924: 923: 920: 915: 914: 913: 910: 906: 902: 898: 894: 893: 892: 889: 885: 884: 883: 880: 876: 872: 868: 867: 866: 865: 862: 858: 850: 843: 841: 835: 818: 815: 811: 807: 803: 802: 801: 798: 794: 793: 792: 789: 785: 781: 777: 775: 772: 768: 765: 764: 763: 760: 756: 751: 750: 749: 748: 747: 746: 745: 744: 737: 734: 730: 726: 725: 724: 720: 716: 712: 711: 710: 709: 704: 701: 697: 693: 692: 691: 690: 687: 684: 680: 676: 672: 668: 667: 664: 660: 656: 652: 651: 650: 649: 646: 627: 624: 620: 616: 612: 609: 605: 604: 603: 602: 601: 600: 599: 598: 597: 596: 595: 594: 593: 592: 579: 575: 571: 567: 566: 565: 564: 563: 562: 561: 560: 559: 558: 557: 556: 545: 542: 538: 534: 530: 527: 526: 525: 524: 523: 522: 521: 520: 519: 518: 509: 505: 501: 497: 489: 488: 487: 484: 480: 476: 469: 468:editprotected 462: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 452: 448: 444: 440: 432: 431: 430: 429: 416: 415: 414: 411: 407: 403: 399: 398: 397: 396: 393: 386: 382: 378: 372: 366: 365: 364: 363: 360: 356: 352: 345: 344:editprotected 329: 325: 321: 316: 315: 314: 311: 308: 303: 302: 301: 298: 294: 290: 286: 285: 284: 280: 276: 272: 268: 267: 266: 265: 262: 258: 254: 247: 246:editprotected 239: 237: 227: 224: 223: 220: 216: 212: 201: 197: 193: 189: 188: 187: 186: 185: 184: 179: 176: 172: 168: 165: 161: 160: 159: 158: 152: 151: 150: 149: 146: 142: 138: 134: 133: 132: 131: 128: 124: 120: 117: 110: 89: 83: 80: 78: 75: 73: 70: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3259: 3149: 3033: 2762: 2645: 2618: 2582: 2436: 2418: 2330: 2308: 2281: 2279: 2238: 2174: 2159: 2124: 2098: 2061:User:Lvivske 1957: 1955: 1951: 1945: 1940: 1936: 1932: 1930: 1877: 1843: 1839: 1790: 1757: 1753: 1734: 1717: 1699: 1682: 1651: 1631: 1473: 1385:to a tee. -- 1285: 1256:Andy's edits 1248:Andy Mabbett 1225: 1211: 1192:Andy's edits 1184:Andy Mabbett 1160:Andy's edits 1152:Andy Mabbett 1073: 1050:Andy's edits 1042:Andy Mabbett 1037: 1014:Andy's edits 1006:Andy Mabbett 1001: 997: 974:Andy's edits 966:Andy Mabbett 963: 948:Andy's edits 940:Andy Mabbett 935: 931: 909:Andy's edits 901:Andy Mabbett 896: 879:Andy's edits 871:Andy Mabbett 854: 839: 837: 833: 814:Andy's edits 806:Andy Mabbett 788:Andy's edits 780:Andy Mabbett 683:Andy's edits 675:Andy Mabbett 642: 623:Andy's edits 615:Andy Mabbett 541:Andy's edits 533:Andy Mabbett 495: 483:Andy's edits 475:Andy Mabbett 435:{{PAGENAME}} 410:Andy's edits 402:Andy Mabbett 389: 359:Andy's edits 351:Andy Mabbett 338: 297:Andy's edits 289:Andy Mabbett 261:Andy's edits 253:Andy Mabbett 240: 238: 235: 225: 219:Andy's edits 211:Andy Mabbett 208: 171:Andy Mabbett 123:Andy Mabbett 103: 65: 43: 37: 3270:1981 – 1990 2485:Petr Nedved 2309:nationality 1956:Thoughts?-- 1402:supersedes 1293:—Preceding 1252:Andy's talk 1188:Andy's talk 1156:Andy's talk 1046:Andy's talk 1040:, in fact. 1036:Straw man. 1010:Andy's talk 970:Andy's talk 944:Andy's talk 905:Andy's talk 895:"Consensus 875:Andy's talk 810:Andy's talk 784:Andy's talk 679:Andy's talk 619:Andy's talk 611:microformat 537:Andy's talk 479:Andy's talk 406:Andy's talk 355:Andy's talk 293:Andy's talk 257:Andy's talk 215:Andy's talk 167:microformat 119:microformat 36:This is an 3262:MOS:ENDASH 3256:Pro career 3066:WP:ATHLETE 2682:Skomorokh 2574:played_for 2175:Thoughts? 2079:MrDolomite 2037:Ryan Smyth 1404:WP:MOSFLAG 1387:Madchester 1383:WP:MOSFLAG 1377:supersede 1346:Bamsefar75 653:I agree. - 439:magic word 3274:1981–1990 2585:Skittleys 2438:Львівське 2420:Львівське 2349:WT:HOCKEY 2100:Львівське 2001:WP:HOCKEY 1959:Львівське 1880:Rettetast 1845:Львівське 1792:Львівське 1759:Львівське 1739:Rettetast 1379:WP:HOCKEY 928:WT:HOCKEY 767:Oh really 496:Not done: 473:request. 349:request. 271:WT:HOCKEY 251:request? 82:Archive 5 77:Archive 4 72:Archive 3 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 2293:contribs 1908:field.-- 1840:Question 1705:Alaney2k 1648:Proposal 1373:Doesn't 1307:contribs 1295:unsigned 1077:contribs 857:this one 840:optional 100:Resolved 3321:DJSasso 3266:WP:YEAR 3232:DJSasso 3208:DJSasso 3162:DJSasso 3133:DJSasso 3110:DJSasso 2988:DJSasso 2973:Crossmr 2958:DJSasso 2943:Crossmr 2928:DJSasso 2913:Crossmr 2898:DJSasso 2884:Crossmr 2866:DJSasso 2851:Crossmr 2826:Crossmr 2811:DJSasso 2796:Crossmr 2781:DJSasso 2765:DJSasso 2724:DJSasso 2692:Crossmr 2667:Crossmr 2624:Crossmr 2601:DJSasso 2537:DJSasso 2521:count? 2504:DJSasso 2489:DJSasso 2471:DJSasso 2403:DJSasso 2379:DJSasso 2222:GoodDay 2190:DJSasso 2142:Djsasso 1977:Djsasso 1941:flag 2) 1933:flag 1) 1895:Djsasso 1862:Djsasso 1809:Djsasso 1777:Djsasso 1735:Support 1722:hippo43 1718:Support 1700:Support 1683:Support 1668:Djsasso 1635:hippo43 1580:Djsasso 1552:Djsasso 1524:Djsasso 1495:Djsasso 1408:Djsasso 1361:Djsasso 1331:hippo43 1299:Hippo43 1266:DJSasso 1232:DJSasso 1170:DJSasso 1136:DJSasso 1112:DJSasso 1067:Andrwsc 1024:DJSasso 984:DJSasso 715:Djsasso 655:Djsasso 570:Djsasso 320:Djsasso 275:Djsasso 192:Djsasso 137:Djsasso 39:archive 3223:Powers 3199:Powers 3190:Powers 3152:Powers 3124:Powers 3079:Krm500 3070:Powers 3037:Powers 2841:Powers 2738:Pgp688 2710:Pgp688 2649:JPG-GR 2461:Krm500 2393:Powers 2297:e-mail 2169:{{Ih}} 1754:Oppose 1608:Krm500 1400:WP:IAR 1375:WP:MOS 1322:Krm500 1126:Powers 1102:Powers 998:eleven 936:eleven 919:Krm500 888:Krm500 861:Krm500 797:Krm500 771:Krm500 733:Krm500 645:Krm500 529:Ms2ger 500:Stifle 443:Ms2ger 392:Krm500 377:Stifle 236:with: 3335:JD554 3307:JD554 3293:JD554 3278:JD554 2280:Twas 2073:there 608:hCard 437:is a 164:hCard 116:hCard 16:< 3339:talk 3325:talk 3311:talk 3297:talk 3282:talk 3276:. -- 3264:and 3236:talk 3212:talk 3180:lute 3177:Reso 3166:talk 3137:talk 3114:talk 3093:talk 3052:talk 2992:talk 2977:talk 2962:talk 2947:talk 2932:talk 2917:talk 2902:talk 2888:talk 2870:talk 2855:talk 2830:talk 2815:talk 2800:talk 2785:talk 2769:talk 2742:talk 2728:talk 2714:talk 2696:talk 2671:talk 2653:talk 2646:Done 2628:talk 2605:talk 2589:talk 2541:talk 2527:talk 2508:talk 2493:talk 2475:talk 2444:talk 2426:talk 2407:talk 2383:talk 2369:talk 2356:lute 2353:Reso 2339:talk 2316:lute 2313:Reso 2289:talk 2261:talk 2244:lute 2241:Reso 2226:talk 2212:talk 2194:talk 2180:lute 2177:Reso 2146:talk 2131:talk 2106:talk 2097:. -- 2095:here 2083:Talk 2071:and 2069:here 2065:here 2045:talk 2019:talk 1981:talk 1965:talk 1937:AND 1914:talk 1899:talk 1884:talk 1866:talk 1851:talk 1826:lute 1823:Reso 1813:talk 1798:talk 1781:talk 1765:talk 1743:talk 1726:talk 1709:talk 1691:talk 1672:talk 1658:lute 1655:Reso 1639:talk 1598:talk 1584:talk 1570:talk 1556:talk 1542:talk 1528:talk 1513:talk 1499:talk 1484:talk 1463:talk 1444:lute 1441:Reso 1412:talk 1391:talk 1365:talk 1350:talk 1335:talk 1318:IIHF 1303:talk 1270:talk 1236:talk 1228:here 1218:talk 1174:talk 1140:talk 1116:talk 1092:talk 1071:talk 1028:talk 1002:only 988:talk 932:zero 897:here 759:talk 719:talk 700:talk 659:talk 574:talk 504:talk 447:talk 381:talk 324:talk 310:lute 307:Reso 279:talk 196:talk 141:talk 90:Name 3068:. 2282:Now 1478:.-- 1320:. — 1038:Men 859:. — 3341:) 3327:) 3313:) 3299:) 3284:) 3238:) 3214:) 3168:) 3139:) 3116:) 3095:) 3054:) 2994:) 2979:) 2964:) 2949:) 2934:) 2919:) 2904:) 2890:) 2872:) 2857:) 2832:) 2817:) 2802:) 2787:) 2771:) 2744:) 2730:) 2716:) 2698:) 2673:) 2655:) 2630:) 2607:) 2591:) 2583:— 2543:) 2529:) 2510:) 2495:) 2477:) 2409:) 2385:) 2371:) 2341:) 2295:• 2291:• 2287:( 2263:) 2228:) 2214:) 2196:) 2148:) 2133:) 2081:• 2077:— 2067:, 2047:) 2021:) 1983:) 1916:) 1901:) 1886:) 1868:) 1815:) 1783:) 1745:) 1728:) 1711:) 1693:) 1674:) 1641:) 1633:-- 1600:) 1586:) 1572:) 1558:) 1544:) 1530:) 1515:) 1501:) 1486:) 1465:) 1414:) 1393:) 1367:) 1352:) 1337:) 1305:• 1290:? 1272:) 1254:; 1238:) 1220:) 1190:; 1176:) 1158:; 1142:) 1118:) 1094:) 1079:) 1048:; 1030:) 1012:; 990:) 972:; 946:; 907:; 877:; 845:— 812:; 786:; 757:- 721:) 698:- 681:; 661:) 621:; 613:. 576:) 539:; 506:) 481:; 471:}} 465:{{ 449:) 408:; 383:) 374:}} 371:EP 368:{{ 357:; 347:}} 341:{{ 326:) 295:; 281:) 259:; 249:}} 243:{{ 217:; 198:) 173:| 143:) 125:| 112:}} 106:{{ 3337:( 3323:( 3309:( 3295:( 3280:( 3234:( 3210:( 3164:( 3135:( 3112:( 3108:- 3091:( 3050:( 2990:( 2975:( 2960:( 2945:( 2930:( 2915:( 2900:( 2886:( 2868:( 2853:( 2828:( 2813:( 2798:( 2783:( 2779:- 2767:( 2740:( 2726:( 2712:( 2694:( 2669:( 2651:( 2643:Y 2626:( 2603:( 2587:( 2539:( 2525:( 2506:( 2491:( 2473:( 2469:- 2446:) 2442:( 2428:) 2424:( 2405:( 2381:( 2367:( 2337:( 2299:) 2259:( 2224:( 2210:( 2192:( 2144:( 2129:( 2108:) 2104:( 2043:( 2017:( 1979:( 1967:) 1963:( 1912:( 1897:( 1882:( 1864:( 1853:) 1849:( 1811:( 1800:) 1796:( 1779:( 1775:- 1767:) 1763:( 1741:( 1724:( 1707:( 1689:( 1670:( 1637:( 1596:( 1582:( 1568:( 1554:( 1540:( 1526:( 1511:( 1497:( 1482:( 1461:( 1410:( 1389:( 1363:( 1359:- 1348:( 1333:( 1301:( 1268:( 1234:( 1230:- 1216:( 1172:( 1168:- 1138:( 1134:- 1114:( 1090:( 1074:· 1069:( 1026:( 1022:- 986:( 917:— 717:( 657:( 572:( 502:( 445:( 379:( 322:( 318:- 277:( 194:( 139:( 50:.

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