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short bit of quoted text above says pretty much what I think, and a small extra bit of text like that is all I'm looking for, not a large banner or a huge policy debate. Rejecting discussion and saying I have to take on much larger Navbox policies in general seems like a very indirect way of saying no a small incremental change that I believe is in keeping with existing principles and guidelines. If people think the suggestion is so bad then say so, or if think it is acceptable then say so. --
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1616:. Yet somehow we have this template which not only encourages editors to add even more unnecessary barely relevant Navboxes it makes it worse by hiding the linkdumpster under another layer of templates and ignores all the principles that seem to apply elsewhere. (The fact that mobile wikipedia doesn't bother with them at all is further evidence of how entirely non-essential they actually are.)
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using this Navbox subbox in particular. It is bizarre when an article has more content hidden in
Navboxes (and sub Navboxes) than it does in the article itself, and maybe there are exceptional articles that really do need more than 10 Navboxes but they should not be added indiscriminately then hidden away. --
2096:
Neither the hlist nor the column format are useful for what I am attempting, which is to incorporate a conventional wikitable into a Navbox, but all I get to show is a {, and no mention of someone doing the same anywhere has come up in searches - so, is there a workaround, or is there an alternative
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I'll need to give it more thought to come up with a specific wording. I thought people with an interest in this template might have insight about the particular cases and maybe respond and say why this template was actually good or necessary, or why it really was reasonable for articles to have more
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Even something as simple as improving the examples or suggesting that maybe it is a good idea to avoid deep sub sub layers, (great that it is possible, not such a good idea to actually do it) but as it stands now this article tacitly encourages the behavior. (Look for yourself, open the examples all
1825:
for directly addressing my suggestion. Knowledge (XXG) often changes small pieces at a time, and I dont think it is unreasonable to try urge a little caution against the worst cases of too many
Navboxes (sub sub Navboxes) and not be expected to take on the whole policies of Navboxes in general. The
1704:
This is a wiki. Documentation pages for templates are almost never protected. If you make an edit and nobody objects, your edit will remain. If you make an edit and someone objects to it and reverts it, you can discuss it further here. So far, what I see is a lot of words, but no concrete proposal
1619:
This template should come with a warning discouraging editors from using it, at least gently suggest to editors that maybe if they're hiding and subgrouping
Navboxes the answer might be less Navboxes. Please improve the documentation to encourage editors to show some small amount of restraint when
2270:
So I couldn't find it in this guide, so I was wondering what's the minimum amount of navigation boxes usually listed to use this template. I always used it after at least 3, but when I used it on a page with 4 it got reverted and the person questioned on where it says that amount is enough. So is
1073:
Thank You, and I do realize the need for general subtlety in the bg color; however, for a long time now, I've been thinking that the present bg color appears a little too faded and pale. So I thought I'd give it just a little more color. It's not a big deal, of course, as I've been thinking about
1179:
I'm just not sure what is needed beyond the comparison in the sandbox. The only reason I used the diff template was in case another editor were to edit the sandbox. The diff provides a permanent record of the comparison, and the comparison shows both the traditional navbox bg color and then my
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than ten
Navboxes or any number of Navboxes large enough that this kind of repeated subgrouping and hiding was a good idea. The indiscriminate proliferation of Navboxes seems very much in contrast to other cases where editors make efforts to be more selective, such as genres, categories,
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I didn't say it shouldn't exist (maybe it shouldn't) but that it should include documentation or warnings to editors to consider not including so many
Navboxes before using this template. I'm skeptical but I suspect there are some cases where this template might actually be necessary. --
1945:
I'm talking about making a small change to the documentation on this page, to include a short cautionary warning. If people can agree to a small change similar to what I am suggesting above, then I don't need (or particularly want) to get into larger general discussion at this time. --
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seems like it is of primary relevance.) I think I will need time to dig deeper and read more of the guidelines (and talk page archives), because if it was me reading the documentation and trying to decide what "relevant" means I would want the documentation link back to something like
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Maybe "warning" was too strong a word, that implies more than I intended, which I suppose you could call a minor edit to the documentation. To show exactly what I mean I decided the most practical thing was to make an edit, I don't think it is a bold change to suggest that editors
1207:
Oh. Sorry, that's my banner blindness. I skipped over the diff and stopped skipping at the first navbox I noticed, which is in the documentation. I'm watching this page due to having done a major refactor of the module and I hope some others will check the rationale for the color.
2053:
I've reverted your edit to the template doc; That something like that needs to be added is only your opinion, you have not established any consensus for it. In fact, I can't see that anyone has agreed with you yet. Please do not re-add it without a consensus, such behavior is
2230:
Hi! I have re-ordered the #if: check so that it now suppresses all output if there is no content. It shouldn't increase the code complexity since we already had this check before my change. You can find the list of the ca. 50 pages with empty navboxes in
2130:- was initially attempting to do both a colspan and a rowspan in the headers but that doesn't appear to have been implemented on the column naxbox - which also has the data entered in the least editor-friendly manner possible for future maintenance.
1497:, yes it's possible to modify this template to add V-T-E links to the wrapper template. However, since the content is in the other 3 templates, it's probably better to just have edit links to the other 3 templates. Also, it looks to me that
1966:
needs to be discussed elsewhere, not here. You first have to establish the need, which you have not done (you personal opinion not being relevant), and then get a broad consensus for it. You don;t get that here, you get that at VP.
1705:
for changing this template's documentation. If you want to propose a change, one good way to do it is in the form "I believe that we should insert the following text after the sentence that ends 'foo bar': 'Blah blah blah etc.'" –
1387:
Apologies if I broke with protocol, Ahecht; however, I just don't see in that quote where the proposal must wait until after discussion. Just didn't think it was that big a deal – an obvious error on my part. Happy
Holidays to
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markup use the pipe character heavily: in the markers to start and end the table, to indicate the start of a caption, new row, or data cell; and to separate a cell's value from its attributes. These must be entered as
1451:, at the moment, there is no option. Generally, this template is used directly in articles, so V-T-E links are not needed. If you want to use this as part of a template, there are usually better options. Thanks!
1024:
I would like to go to a slightly different default background color: #e8ddff (prev. #e8e8ff). Feel free to remark here in this discussion, or, if strongly against, to revert to the previous background.
2379:
was applying the -CSS class "nowraplinks", which caused the 9-column tables to spill out to the right of the article body on smaller screes such as my full-HD laptop. After my request for help at
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says "All articles within a template relate to a single, coherent subject." but some editors have a very expansive interpretation of words like "single subject" and "coherent" mean (example:
2235:. I was thinking we might add a "preview" message to warn the user that the code is not valid, much like we warn when there are invalid parameters. What does everyone else think? Thanks!
1608:
I'm serious, ordinary
Navboxes are junk and these Navboxes to contain other Navboxes are another layer of awful and should come with warnings against their usage. We have guidelines against
2097:
that I can convert the basic wikitable into without having all the data in the utterly impossible to follow (and therefore maintain) order mandated by the navbox with columns? Cheers.
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for general discussion about the subject matter, they are solely for discussing potential improvements in the template. FORUM-like discussion are subject to deletion at anytime, per
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and previewing. Then there are all the links at the bottom of the green documentation box which only work as expected if the sandbox and testcases are set up in the normal manner. --
1885:
that warn editors against deleting other peoples talk page comments, that I was so surprised to have my comments deleted. My complaints are about
Navboxes in general but also about
1807:
really was needed to organize and structure large numbers of
Navboxes into groups, and weren't just being used to hide excessive Navboxes, and sweep the mess under the rug. --
1582:
This template should come with a health warning because if you have so many
Navboxes that you need to subgroup and hide them that you almost certainly have too many Navboxes.
2356:}. These navboxes display their data as a table rather than as te usual horizontal list, because a list very poor way to describe a multi-seat parliamentary constituency.
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is a great way to analyze this "lack of bidirectionality" by showing places where the navbox is transcluded, but there is no link to that article in the navbox. Thanks!
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1477:, it could make sense to have separate V-T-E links since it is a standalone template that includes 3 other templates. In theory this should be possible to do, right? -
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Any chance of a page somewhere showing two navboxes, one traditional and one proposed? Your link shows a diff which would need quite a lot of confidence to interpret.
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Without even following the links, I can tell you what the problem is: pipes. A navbox is a template, and templates use pipes to separate parameters. In a line like
960:
Site CSS was updated a few hours ago. It no longer applies the light gray border to tables nested inside navboxes. Should be safe to revert the {{S-start}} fix.
1751:
Less is more. Before using this template to group navigation boxes together, consider carefully if a page needs to include more than a few Navboxes that are
41:. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
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This is not the right page to discuss whether this template should exist. If you would like to nominate it for deletion, please follow the instructions at
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with an inline style border. I've requested a fix to the site CSS, so with luck that'll go in soon and avoid similar problems in other templates.
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Navboxes seems to get away with being included indiscriminately, held to none of the standards we would require of a single link if it was in in
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That's a rough first pass. I'm not as optimistic about adding to articles and not expecting to be reverted if things haven't been discussed.
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the change and agree with Corky — it's too purple-ly. If anything, I think the navboxes should be less saturated (something like #EAECF0) --
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to the proposed version, it should not contain the current version as well. Side-by-side (or one-above-the-other) comparisons may be done at
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applies. Disagree with me, ignore me, but my comments are on topic and I don't think deleting was an appropriate reaction in line with the
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1473:(and I bet there are more) where it is used in a template to include multiple related templates with just one transclusion. In the case of
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Thank you for the explanation. I know it's a bit pale, but personally, I would prefer a more neutral color... like a light grayish color.
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the way, and tell me you really think having a sub sub layer about political "Alliances" is really a good way to arrange anything.) --
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which is an extremely pale grey (although the border might appear to be absent, it is in fact present). It seems that this CSS rule:
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I think that "rule of five" is about a minimum of articles for a navbox, not a minimum of navboxes to put in this template,
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proposed bg color just below the traditional one. The two navbars are also seen in the "Sandbox" section of "Test 1" on the
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is being overused, since in most cases only one of the three subtemplates is needed at the foot of the article. Thanks!
1469:, thanks for the response. I understand that usually this template is used directly in articles, but I know of at least
1359:
Changes that require at least some discussion, or at least several days passing with no one commenting on your proposal
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The new color is too purple-ly... Can you explain your reasoning behind the change? Right now I'm against the change.
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1268:. A benefit of this approach is that you can see what it looks like in articles by going to an article and altering
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Thanks! that fixed one problem, now to figure out the formatting, but that will be for tomorrow, much appreciated.
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.
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I was going to say that Liam Cosgrave would be pleased, but he was not a man to be pleased about anything.
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Stop deleting Talk page comments. I'm not merely expressing my opinion about Navboxes in general but in
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Thanks! I went ahead and reverted the workaround that I put in place on the succession box templates. --
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This mostly works very well, but there was in a glitch tables with higher numbers of columns, e.g. in
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or elsewhere to help make it clearer, make decisions easier, and disputes easier to avoid or resolve.
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making the problem worse because it implicitly encourages too many Navboxes, and hidding Navboxes. --
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discussing the improvement of this template, you are attempting to discuss how this template is
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instances of this tag, which are causing a "Stripped tag" (closing tag without an opening tag)
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has more than ten hidden at the end of the page, but only the one that isn't subgrouped using
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is template protected, and you used your template editor permissions to make this change. Per
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If you link to a sandbox page where you are trying to do this, we may be able to help you. –
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Any idea if there is a way to add the View/Talk/Edit links to the top left like a normal
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I think that a normal-sized-text red error message in preview would be appropriate. –
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as exemplifying and encouraging the worst cases of excessive Navboxes, I don't think
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to place the comparisons closer together and erased the /doc page. Hope that helps.
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the horizontal border separating the rows is clearly a kind of mid-grey (actually
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At this point it would also be instructive to see examples of articles where
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the Wikitext template parser sees this as two independent parameters:
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coming from there. I have made a better fix for your case by adding
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at some point. That'd be a good time to tighten up the selectors:
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If we are to provide some such warning, it ought to be shown at
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And please set up a demo showing navboxes with the two colors.
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page. Please explain in detail exactly what more you need.
1927:. That is not a matter for this talk page. Please go to
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I have built a series of navboxes using the metatemplate
1357:, "slightly tweaking something's color" is listed under "
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2559:. That has indeed fixed it, and more elegantly too.
1543:Does anyone here know why editors would have put a
932:I broke it, but I can't take credit for fixing it!
1855:Template talk pages, like article talk pages are
2447:doing this, when nowraplinks is already part of
2058:and can lead to being blocked from editing. See
1993:- is far better than this template talk page. --
893:Should stop nested tables from being affected.
182:Does anyone know how to fix the formatting at
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1989:. So a discussion in a central place - like
728:Yeah, that's it. The plan was to get rid of
2390:to remove "nowraplinks" from the output of
1735:So far what roughly what I would propose is
1539:Why is there a closing span tag in list1=Â ?
707:I am certain that this is a consequence of
2233:Category:Navboxes template with no content
1301:The change in the sandbox has been made.
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240:means that in the following two examples:
1673:Knowledge (XXG):Templates_for_discussion
61:Any contributor may edit the template's
39:heavily used or highly visible template
2183:See the Wikitext below the example at
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2415:Dublin County (Dáil constituency)/TDs
2364:Dublin County (Dáil constituency)/TDs
1755:to the primary topic of the article.
711:, and I have dropped a note there. --
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1895:Knowledge (XXG):Talk page guidelines
1887:usage of this template in particular
1883:Knowledge (XXG):Talk page guidelines
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1365:you made the change. Personally, I
558:is being overridden by this rule:
184:Template:Navboxes#Succession boxes
146:Succession boxes: incorrect border
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2351:Constituency Teachtaà Dála navbox
2369:, where are there a 9 columns.
1553:Victoria's Secret#External links
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2297:, there is a "rule of five". --
2271:there a commonly used minimum?
1355:Knowledge (XXG):Template editor
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375:Minister for Tourism and Trade
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1931:and open a discussion there.
1881:It is exactly because of the
1777:Teen Titans Go! To the Movies
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1222:No worries, I've altered the
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2381:WP:Village pump (technical)
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1654:this template in particular
1262:Template:Navboxes/testcases
1074:this for a few years now.
176:to reactivate your request.
164:has been answered. Set the
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2037:keep the Navboxes relevant
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2467:'s behavior be disabled?
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1132:Thank You for asking
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37:because it is a
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1252:Paine Ellsworth
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1753:most relevant
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709:this proposal
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344:Mervyn Taylor
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52:documentation
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36:
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28:
25:
18:
17:
2520:to override
2436:
2402:
2358:
2345:
2331:GoldRingChip
2326:
2269:
2237:Plastikspork
2229:
2095:
1962:
1961:
1923:
1922:
1917:
1916:
1899:WP:GOODFAITH
1891:WP:NOTAFORUM
1886:
1857:WP:NOTAFIRUM
1851:
1850:
1752:
1730:MOS:DONTHIDE
1653:
1651:
1614:MOS:DONTHIDE
1584:
1581:
1561:Linter error
1555:? There are
1542:
1521:Plastikspork
1515:By the way,
1503:Plastikspork
1467:Plastikspork
1453:Plastikspork
1419:
1416:V·T·E links?
1393:
1392:
1389:
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1303:
1302:
1266:WP:TESTCASES
1230:
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772:navbox-inner
739:navbox-inner
368:Succeeded by
359:
341:Succeeded by
332:
293:Succeeded by
284:
266:Succeeded by
257:
238:Neve-selbert
217:
207:
181:
173:
162:edit request
106:
68:
62:
60:
50:
35:from editing
31:permanently
30:
2557:PrimeHunter
2543:PrimeHunter
2529:nowraplinks
2522:nowraplinks
2514:nowraplinks
2385:PrimeHunter
2321:IAmNMFlores
2289:IAmNMFlores
2273:IAmNMFlores
1471:one example
934:User:Ahecht
351:Preceded by
324:Preceded by
276:Preceded by
249:Preceded by
2568:HairedGirl
2473:HairedGirl
2430:, e.g, on
2410:that when
2405:Spleodrach
2403:However, @
2128:it is here
1728:. (Oh and
1722:WP:SEEALSO
1587:WP:SEEALSO
1264:; more at
1183:test cases
868:border-top
682:border-top
338:1992–1993
263:1992–1993
166:|answered=
70:test cases
57:categories
2317:Redrose64
2252:Jonesey95
2114:Jonesey95
1987:WP:NAVBOX
1985:and also
1823:Jonesey95
1792:WP:NAVBOX
1773:WP:NAVBOX
1707:Jonesey95
1677:Jonesey95
1565:Jonesey95
1517:this tool
914:Thank you
488:wikitable
458:wikitable
434:wikitable
410:wikitable
208:Not done:
121:Archive 1
43:consensus
33:protected
2577:contribs
2536:Navboxes
2503:Navboxes
2482:contribs
2462:navboxes
2442:navboxes
2425:navboxes
2327:Navboxes
2295:WP:NENAN
2206:- NiD.29
2152:|list1={
2132:- NiD.29
2126:Thanks,
2099:- NiD.29
1915:You are
1852:Warning:
1802:Navboxes
1784:Navboxes
1551:, as in
1495:Psantora
1449:Psantora
1348:Navboxes
1272:Navboxes
1210:Johnuniq
1167:Johnuniq
1128:Johnuniq
1110:Johnuniq
107:Archives
2437:Why is
2407:spotted
2174:|list1=
1821:Thanks
1578:Warning
1549:|list1=
1225:sandbox
1140:sandbox
1126:editor
1067:editor
941:S-start
925:selbert
883:#fdfdfd
697:#fdfdfd
533:padding
527:#a2a9b1
398:#fdfdfd
394:#a2a9b1
194:selbert
64:sandbox
2573:(talk)
2478:(talk)
2452:navbox
2395:navbox
2374:navbox
2302:rose64
2192:rose64
2060:WP:BRD
1998:rose64
1991:WP:VPR
1983:WP:NAV
1861:WP:TPO
1425:navbox
1371:Ahecht
1367:oppose
1363:before
1289:rose64
976:Ahecht
936:fixed
716:rose64
601:navbox
571:navbox
512:border
233:Ahecht
212:Ahecht
2566:Brown
2471:Brown
2039:. --
1963:still
1960:That
1929:WP:VP
1901:. --
1726:WP:EL
1724:, or
1591:WP:EL
1097:Corky
1069:Corky
1056:Corky
880:solid
859:: -->
847:: -->
844:tbody
841:: -->
826:: -->
814:: -->
811:tbody
808:: -->
793:: -->
781:: -->
778:tbody
775:: -->
760:: -->
748:: -->
745:tbody
742:: -->
694:solid
673:: -->
643:: -->
613:: -->
583:: -->
524:solid
503:: -->
497:: -->
491:: -->
482:table
473:: -->
467:: -->
461:: -->
452:table
443:: -->
437:: -->
428:table
419:: -->
413:: -->
404:table
365:1993
290:1993
170:|ans=
160:This
2547:talk
2319:and
2306:talk
2304:🌹 (
2293:See
2277:talk
2256:talk
2210:talk
2196:talk
2194:🌹 (
2187:. --
2154:and
2136:talk
2118:talk
2103:talk
2068:talk
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