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still be correct in saying that they would not be sufficient. Knowledge (XXG) naming conventions address the issues of self-identification and common use with a minimum of ambiguity. If you would review the case presented, you would see that you have an incorrect understanding of the "conventions of the wider
Anglophone world," and that in common usage "Catholic Church" is always understood to mean the "church whose polity headed by the Bishop of Rome." I would ask that you put aside your POV and support the application of Knowledge (XXG) policy to this issue.
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communion with one another. To distinguish between them, we indicate which rite they follow. Do they follow the Roman rite, the
Byzantine rite, the Syrian rite, the Russian rite? Thus, Roman Catholic Church, Russian Catholic Church, Syrian Catholic Church, etc. To erase the distinction is to insist, in effect, that the Roman rite is the only one to have a claim on being "the" Catholic church. I consider my own church to be catholic, but I am quite sure that it is not Roman Catholic.
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with, usage will dictate a clipping of "Roman
Catholic" to "Catholic," but the same would not be true in an encyclopedia. Again, when those encyclopedias change their entries, we can change ours. Otherwise, you are asking to correct a wrong -- the wrong of not being considered the only catholic church -- by waging the battle here. We will follow the readers.
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follow suit. However, as they all, like us, distinguish the various "catholic" churches, the status quo has the benefit of being most useful. Self identification is irrelevant in this regard, but, even if it were at play, you would be wrong in professing to speak for all priests, bishops, cardinals, and archbishops in seeking to drop the "Roman" designation.
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It's a POV fork, but the forking involves something a bit submerged. The name has big implications for Roman
Catholics of a particularly conservative sort, and it's very important for protestants (esp. Anglicans and Lutherans) that the name change not take place. Now me, I don't think that changing
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Geogre, in response to
Vaquero's invitation to visit the page describing the case for the proposed use of "Catholic Church", you have replied with a statement of what you call "theological and historical evidence." If it were indisputable that this evidence is as you state (and it is not), you would
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George,I read you think "Catholic Church" is nasty. George, you are clearly new to this debate and your
British and Anglican background suggest that you may be unfamiliar with the nomenclature of the Catholic Church as well as the thoroughly established use of "Catholic Church" in reference to those
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Those poor stupid
Americans have plenty of Syrian, Russian, and Greek Churches - more than the English, in fact. If you meant "encylcopedia" you should not have included dictionaries in your reference list. Dictionaries do describe usage. Knowledge (XXG) naming conventions refer to usage also. If
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Not dictionaries, encyclopedias. Look for the entry describing the Roman
Catholic Church in any print encyclopedia, and see whether it is lodged at "Catholic Church" or "Roman Catholic Church." Dictionaries describe usage. For Americans, who have few Syrian, Russian, or Greek churches to contend
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Even if all of that theological and historical evidence were not sufficient, though, we need to follow the conventions of the wider
Anglophone world, and that is "Roman Catholic" for the church whose polity headed by the Bishop of Rome, and not "Catholic," except in the most ignorant of usages.
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the place to redress what any of us regard as historical wrongs. When
Britanica, American Heritage, World Book, the Oxford, and the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church agree in dropping "Roman" and using only "catholic" to refer to one specific rite, then Knowledge (XXG) will be bound to
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No, indeed. I said that I thought that mounting the argument was nasty. The Nicene Creed says that all Christians believe in one catholic church, with "catholic" meaning orthodox and united, and we do all believe in one church. However, multiple schisms have brought the various rites out of
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I am sorry if you thought that I had referred to an old polemic or to any historical wrongs. I merely expressed support for applying published Knowledge (XXG) guidelines regarding the use of the name "Catholic Church." According to
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is one of the objective criteria for choosing a name. In determining self-identification, I would not presume to speak for all priests, bishops, etc., but do note the following usage by these national conferences:
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I have not been interested in rehashing an old polemic, one that has spilled blood and given no profit to the church or world. I remain so. Knowledge (XXG) follows the world in this regard, and, I repeat, it is
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Vaquero100 is a Catholic priest with degrees in philosophy, theology and sociology of religion. He has an interest in Catholic topics as well as American domestic architecture of the 19th Century.
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a name will change the fact that it's one church and not THE church, but if Knowledge (XXG) were to take the lead in reverting the name, we'd have some extremely angry readers/editors.
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How dull. It turned out to be somethign altogether less imaginitive - a plain old-fashioned POV fork. Reverted. With just a tiny application of
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I wonder which hoary old argument has just been revived? Could it perhaps be the perenial demand by the Papists to move their article from
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to the Church headed by the Bishop of Rome. Also contrary to your statement, self-identification is not only relevant, but according to
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I encourage you to reconsider your opposition to the consistent application of Knowledge (XXG) naming conventions regarding this.
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you would read and understand the naming conventions then you might start to follow readers instead of trying to lead them.
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in communion with Rome. Please see this page for a more thorough treatment of the subject matter:
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An Example of the Intellectual Vacuity and Moral Nihilism of some WP Administrators
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Again: true and false are not the issue when it comes to locating our lemmae.
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