User:Vaquero100/CC vs. RCC - Knowledge (XXG)

1025:, which only serves to demonstrate that "Roman" does not refer to the entire Catholic Church, but only the Western Catholic Church. There was not a single reference in the entire CCC where "Roman" was used to refer to the entire Church, East and West, contered on Rome. It is clear that the emphasis on the dignity of the Eastern Rites forces in Catholic use the term Roman to only refer to the Western Church and not the Catholic Church as a whole. As has been said before many times, "Roman" is not to be applied to the Eastern Catholic Churches whose tradition is centered on Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, but not Rome. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, "Roman" refers to the Western Church, and communion with Rome does not make a Church "Western" or "Roman." by 1083:

abstract concept which does not have the same potential for confusion. One could write articles on the Roman Catholic Church in one sense or another, but one could not really write an article on the "Catholic Church" in the Anglican sense without it becoming a listing of Churches with the claim to Catholicity. Such an article can only be about a series of Churches not a single entity because Catholic Church in the Anglican sense has not real content proper to it. It is just an idea without a real world referent.

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in certain specific contexts they might use the term "Anglican Communion" to refer to something greater than the group of Churches in communion with Canterbury, they could not really use this term in the general public because it would be confusing. So while they believe in the idealized "Anglican Communion" as distinct from the real-world entity "Anglican Communion," this term is of very limited usefulness and could not really become a part of everyday English.

38: 1348:. Since the mid 20th century, there have been numerous churches which have broken away from the Anglican Communion. Most of these churches still consider themselves to be Anglican and many of these churches believe that they are examples of true Anglicanism and that it is the Churches in communion with Canterbury which have strayed from the true Anglican tradition. These churches call themselves 405: 894:

of ambiguity; however, in the actual use of the English language this sense of the term is extremely rare, almost exclusively used by theologians, some church officials and in a quite indirect way in the creeds ("One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church"). These are quite specialized contexts as shown in the various searches above.

784:. In no instance was Catholic or Catholic Church used alone to refer to these Churches. None of their institutional names are ever listed as "Catholic Church" without some modifier. (Notice also that while the name "True Catholic Church" may be contoversial as many churches may claim to be either the actual or part of the actual " 702: 1386:

3. These groups of continuing Anglican Churches may be absolutely correct in knowing the mind of God with respect to the Anglican Communion, but they would not have the right to force it to change its name to suit their theological perspective. In the real world the Anglican Communion like all human

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Church on "Catholic Church" yielded on the first page of results: 33 references to "Catholic" or "Catholic Church." All instances referred to the Church in question; that is, there were no cases of Catholic or Catholic Church referring to anything but the Church in Question. Only in 4 instances were

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2. As all the continuing Anglican Churches have altered their proper names to such things as the "Anglican Church in America" etcetera, there is no such real entity with the name "Anglican Communion" although they believe themselves to be part of the idealized concept of "Anglican Communion." While

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that is, independent in their governance. The term Roman Catholic Church refers to the Western Church under Rome and does not include the Eastern Churches. However, the Eastern Catholic Churches are part of the one Catholic Church. This is in large part why the Catholic Church does not use "Roman"

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Knowledge (XXG) should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely

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page, WP has a general solution to the present difficulties with the CC/RCC page. It states clearly that when a title refers to more than one topic but one of those topics is significantly more common than the others, the most common topic gets the title and a disambiguation page is set up for the

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As most objections to "Catholic Church" appear to come from Anglican sources (with whome the argument historically began ), it may be useful to show instances of "Catholic Church" referring to the Church centered on the Pope. (Granted a majority of Anglican references include "Roman" but references

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There is one other rather specialized use of the term "Catholic Church," which some say would to ambiguity for readers. Anglicans and other Christians use the term "Catholic Church" to refer to an invisible entity or theological concept which includes all baptized Christians. This could be a source

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on "Catholic Church -wikipedia" yielded on the first page of results: 29 references to "Catholic" or "Catholic Church." All instances referred to the Church in question; that is, there were no cases of "Catholic" or "Catholic Church" referring to anything but the Church in Question. In 0 instances

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So, "Roman Catholic" is a problematic and ambiguous term, the ambiguity of which is far greater than any ambiguity attributed to "Catholic Church" in the Anglican sense. It is more ambiguous in that these terms refer to real entities in the world, whereas the Anglican use of the word refers to an

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3. Among Anglicans and some other Christians, "Roman Catholic" refers to the entire Catholic Church centered on the pope. This usage is virtually unknown in the Documents of the Catholic Church with the exception of several messages and communiqués written in diplomatic language and which bear no

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Conclusion: If the actual name of the institution were "Roman" Catholic Church, it is remarkable that in all its most formal public documents (including Council texts) of the past 56 years have neglected to mention it (including Pope John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI). That only 5

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If the Continuing Anglican Churches were to press the Anglican Communion to change its name and "Canterburian Anglican Communion" were to become to a degree a part of the English language, WP by its own policies would not force the use of the new name in its articles unless the Anglican Communion

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has the problem of like named churches as well as name which can be interpreted as theologically exclusivist. The solution found at that article was to name the article according the the Church's name for itself with a lengthy disambiguating paragraph refering readers to other churches with some

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on "Catholic Church" yielded on the first page of results: 12 references to "Catholic" or "Catholic Church." All instances referred to the Church in question; that is, there were no cases of "Catholic" or "Catholic Church" referring to anything but the Church in Question. Only in one instance was

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Conclusion: WP naming policy does not want to prefer one POV over another with regard to the naming of groups. Use of the name the group uses for itself is reporting no prefering. Applied to CC v. RCC, this clearly points to "Catholic Church" as the name for the institution centered on the

978:. They are in communion with Rome and they are fully Catholic Churches, but they are not "Roman Catholic" Churches. The Western or Latin or Roman Church is the one Western Church under the Pope as Primate of the West. While in communion with the Church of Rome, Eastern Catholic Churches are 921:

When reviewing these unqualified uses of "Catholic", you would have to drill down into the list past the 970th place to find the first use of "Catholic" to refer to anything other than "institution headed by the Bishop of Rome." Even there the entry refers to a group calling itself "United

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As diplomatic language is often couched in the language preferred by the addressee and is addressed to a very specific public, as a matter of gentility or courtesy, it is not helpful in determining the language which the author or speaker typically uses in other forms of communication.

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associations, peoples, tribes, cultures, sub-cultures etcetera have the right to name themselves. Furthermore, no such entity has the obligation to accommodate any other entity in its self naming, especially if the change is stimulated by the claims of a group of later establishment.

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1. Such a demand would be foolish because everyone knows what is meant by "Anglican Communion." To add "Canterburian" would be redundant and useless linguistically since all the other Churches calling themselves "Anglican" have added some other modifier to their name to clarify the

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To assess what readers would recognize "Catholic" to mean, we can see the ways it is used. Applying 'catholic -"roman catholic" -"orthodox catholic" -"old catholic" -"anglican catholic" -wikipedia' as the search term in Yahoo will return uses of the word "Catholic" without common

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In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would

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819: 913:... "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." And, 1178:

which refers to many cities of that name as well as the ancient civilization, the modern city of Rome is the predominant use of the term. The modern Italian city is under the title "Rome" with a disambiguation page for the other uses of the term.

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Furthermore, the Catholic Church is opposed to "Roman Catholic" as an official designation. The Church uses "Roman" in its name in no context save some instances of diplomatic courtesy, which texts have no doctrinal nor any other authority.

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This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.

131: 622:, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Knowledge (XXG)" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term. 1293:

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2. It violates the Catholic understanding of the relationship between the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not neutral on the term "Roman," but opposes it as an official designation on theological

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Conclusion: "Catholic Church" is not an ambiguous term in everyday usage. Even in articles on the Anglican website, use of Catholic Church with out "Roman" does not require any further explanation in most cases in order to be

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yielded these results on the first page: 17 occurances of "Catholic Church" and only 3 were preceded by the term "Roman." None of the references to the "Catholic Church" referred to any other Church but the one in question.

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Such addresses and communiques are not intended to be authoritative documents. Authoritative documents concern matters of faith and morals, are signed by the pope and adress to the world as binding always and everywhere.

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authority as official documents. They are communications written with a "greeting card" level of courtesy and are useless as sources of technical information such as the proper name of the Catholic Church.

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Conclusion: on the Vatican Website's document library, there is no evidence of the Holy See referring to the "Catholic Church" by any other term in its normal and even form public statements to the general

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Again, WP refrains from making judgements based on subjective criteria such as appropriateness or moral claims. WP considers naming of self-identifying entities as a matter of reporting objectively the

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1. In the West, particularly in Protestant England following the Reformation, "Roman" is a derivative of Anglican slurs intended to insult the pope: "Romish," "Romanist," "Papist," "Popery," etcetera."

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uses of the term have been employed in these highest ranking documents in the past 250+ years is indicative of just how distant a second place "Roman" takes in the self-identity of the Catholic Church.

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page become an actual disambiguation page rather than appear like another article. Another article called Catholic Church (theological concept) could include the present material found at

137: 181: 680:. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English. 151: 111: 284: 1239:

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a

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Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a

345: 1230:. It says in short that when two groups have opposing POV's with regard to the name of one of them, WP should use the name that the group uses for itself. Here is the example: 171: 1243:

sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a

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sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a

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When "-wikipedia" is included in the search criteria, "Roman" does not appear as a modifier of Catholic or Catholic Church until the last entry on the second page of results.

177: 459:. For full disclosure, this user argues for the use of "Catholic Church" over "Roman Catholic Church," as it is the name that this self-identifying entity uses for itself. 304: 161: 147: 107: 294: 280: 91: 341: 167: 734: 495:

WP does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.

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The references to the "Roman liturgy," the "Roman Church," and the "Roman Missal," most often occur in contradistinction to the liturgies and practices of the

300: 157: 926:, the article should be named "Catholic Church", as it would be a purely objective description of what the Catholics call themselves. ... (emphasis author's) 482:

If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

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Conclusion: 29 out of 29 times articles on Google's first page of results believed that "Roman" was unnecessary for its readers to understand what was meant.

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The document from a working joint committee of ecumenical dialogue, which is a use of diplomatic language and is not a document published by the Holy See.

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While NPOV is a policy and Naming Conventions are guidelines, apparent conflicts between these WP principles are addressed thoroughly in the section on

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When "-wikipedia" is left off of the the search criteria, it is the ONLY reference that incorporates "Roman" on the first page of Google search results.

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The parallels with the Catholic Church and the moniker "Roman" are obvious. I hope that this thought experiment was helpful to clarify the issues.

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to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g.

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A communiqué to or regarding a joint committe of ecumenical dialogue, which is diplomatic language (an extension of courtesy, not definitive).

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Catholic," which is not an unqualified use of the word "Catholic". This certainly appears to be a minimum of ambiguity! In accordance with

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Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)

376: 1323:. An article using the name of this Church does not espouse or reject the theological point of view of this Church but merely reports that 217: 205: 77: 54: 488:

Where there are more than one POV regarding appropriateness of a name, WP refrains from making a judgment based on subjective criteria

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Conclusion: 11 out of 12 times The Guardian believed that "Roman" was unnecessary for its readers to understand what was meant.

335: 213: 915:"Names of Knowledge (XXG) articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists". 910: 772:

On the second page of Google search results there were 3 sites referring to other Churches with "Catholic" in their name: The

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to summarize and apply WP naming principles to the naming of WP Articles and Categories concerning the Church centered on the

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A speech given to representatives of another church, which is diplomatic language (an extension of courtesy, not definitive).

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Principle 4: Names of WP articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

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Names of Knowledge (XXG) articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

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Conclusion: 29 out of 33 times the BBC believed that "Roman" was unnecessary for its readers to understand what was meant.

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itself had officially changed its name, because WP conventions call for the preferred name of a self-identifying entity.

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1. Within the lexicon of the Catholic Church (that is its own documents), in the West, "Roman" most often refers to the

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The above citation is confirmed by a search on "Roman" on an online "Catechism of the Catholic Church." The results are

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to describe itself in its authoritative documents. An example is the Melkite Greek Catholic Church which has an online

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with other uses of the term placed on a disambiguation page with additional qualifiers attached to distinguish them.

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Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)

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Principle 2: Does not apply (There is no conflict between the common and official name. Both are "Catholic Church"

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If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;

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Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:

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Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)

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Conclusion: CNN on 14 of 17 uses of "Catholic Church" did not think the term was ambiguous for its users.

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is for the Church centered on Rome. According to WP policy, this institution should be under the title

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Catholic Church were to be applied to the Anglican Communion, it would have to change its name to the

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can be used to identify which of a pair (or more) conflicting names is the most prevalent in English.

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Principle 1: The most common use of the name: "Catholic Church" or "Roman Catholic Church":

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is equally instructive. The precise term, "Roman Catholic Church" turned up just 8 times

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Anglican Communion. Of course, no one is making this demand for several good reasons:

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It has already been demonstrated that the overwhelmingly most common use of the term,

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2. Among the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church, "Roman" is usually a reference to

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while a search on the exact terms, "Roman Catholic Church" turned up only 5 results

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To determine the balance of these criteria, WP suggest a table like the following:

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A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:

1206: 1202: 628:. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the 984: 619: 404: 1213:

almost always refers to the CC/RCC could redirect to the CC page once renamed

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Objection: "Catholic Church" is POV because it is based on an exclusive claim

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subjective. It is not a question that Knowledge (XXG) can, or should, decide.

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The Roman Church (refering only to the diocese of Roma or the Western Church)

1001:. Every instance of the word Roman was a reference to one of the following: 577:

subjective. It is not a question that Knowledge (XXG) can, or should, decide.

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conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.

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The Catholic Church is both a Church in itself and a communion of 23

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conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.

788:." However, rightfully WP editors have titled the article as such.) 807: 1352:. If the logic behind changing the name of the Catholic Church to 1319:

of how the entity names itself. An example is the article on the

1175: 861:. Each of these 8 instances fall under one of three categories: 637: 633: 456: 935:

without "Roman" do not appear to be more "ambiguous." Examples:

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Does the name infringe on someone else's legal or moral rights?

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Application of WP naming principles using WP objective methods

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1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

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on the exact terms: "Catholic Church" turned up 193 results

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were "Catholic" or "Chatholic Church" preceded by "Roman."

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Following this WP policy, I would propose that the current

1033:"Roman" unacceptible for historical and theological reasons 654:

and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as

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approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.

974:. 22 of the 23 Churches within the Catholic Church are 655: 571:

approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.

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Objection: NPOV Policy v. Naming Conventions guidelines

737:"Catholic" or "Chatholic Church" preceded by "Roman." 659: 1014:

The Roman liturgy (includes only the Western Church)

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These five encyclicals and year of publication are:

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Does the subject have a legal right to use the name?

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Does the subject have a moral right to use the name?

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The Roman Missal (includes only the Western Church)

800:Principle 3: How does the subject identify itself? 721:Catholic or Chatholic Church preceded by "Roman." 966:"Roman Catholic Church" inacurate and problematic 552:Is the use of the name politically unacceptable? 24:User:Vaquero100/Catholic Church naming arguments 1340:Thought experiment using the Anglican Communion 521:The name of a subjects should not be ambiguous. 476:The most common use of a name takes precedence; 1336:form of claim to the name "Church of Christ." 1129:2. Current undisputed official name of entity 432: 8: 1171:Knowledge (XXG):Disambiguation#Primary_topic 759:Three additional notes on the Google search: 463:WP Naming Conventions as articulated on the 1140:3. Current self-identifying name of entity 1327:that this is how the Church names itself. 439: 425: 32: 451:This page has is being assembled by the 53: 1118:1. Most commonly used name in English 1055:"Roman Catholic" is an ambiguous term 7: 1344:Another interesting parallel is the 1174:other topics. Giving the example of 1062:Church of Rome (the diocese of Rome) 648:Major English-language media outlets 281:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) 1280:In other words, Wikipedians should 987:explaining the use of these terms. 909:"... To put this in the context of 591:In other words, Wikipedians should 911:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions 856:Vatican Website's online documents 31: 1199:Catholic Church (disambiguation) 1195:Catholic Church (disambiguation) 992:Catechism of the Catholic Church 506:. We cannot declare what a name 403: 301:Naming conventions (Catholicism) 61: 36: 924:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conflict 903:Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Name 291:Manual of Style/Catholic Church 1023:Eastern Rite Catholic Churches 976:Eastern Rite Catholic Churches 1: 1350:Continuing Anglican churches 839:Humani Generis, p. 27 (1950) 342:Names of the Catholic Church 1165:Proposal based on WP Policy 1097: 836:Rappresentanti Terra (1929) 626:International organisations 471:The SIX key principles are: 352:Catholic or Roman Catholic? 1411: 1037:The reasons are several: 930:18:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC) 410:Catholic Church portal 1217:Answering some objections 1150: 1110: 1105: 1100: 808:www.papalencyclicals.net 700:Google search of CNN.com 666:'s style guide says use 377:WikiProject Christianity 1282:describe, not prescribe 774:Liberal Catholic Church 593:describe, not prescribe 258:WikiProject Catholicism 225:Catholic Church sidebar 55:WikiProject Catholicism 932: 778:United Catholic Church 620:advanced search option 214:Catholic Church footer 907: 465:Naming Conflicts page 1321:True Catholic Church 786:True Catholic Church 782:True Catholic Church 275:Convention proposals 138:Canon law Task Force 972:Particular churches 833:In Hac Tanta (1919) 827:Magnae Nobis (1748) 387:Portal:Christianity 72:General information 1346:Anglican Communion 985:Information Center 901:from his entry on 715:Guardian Newspaper 603:Objective Methods: 128:Quality operations 1157: 1156: 1008:The Roman Pontiff 618:. Using Google's 510:be, only what it 449: 448: 312:User:Grabado/List 78:Main project page 22:(Redirected from 1402: 1333:Church of Christ 1228:Naming Conflicts 1098: 854:A search of the 441: 434: 427: 408: 407: 188:Project category 65: 40: 33: 27: 1410: 1409: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1342: 1331:Similarly, the 1330: 1312: 1306: 1233: 1224: 1219: 1211:Catholic Church 1188:Catholic Church 1184:Catholic Church 1167: 1161: 1089: 1057: 1035: 996: 968: 746:A Google search 690: 684: 678:Reference works 616:The Google test 556: 468: 453:User:Vaquero100 445: 402: 397: 396: 372: 364: 363: 325: 317: 316: 276: 268: 267: 208: 198: 197: 178:Articles alerts 73: 29: 28: 21: 20: 18:User:Vaquero100 12: 11: 5: 1408: 1406: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1378: 1371: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1341: 1338: 1325:objective fact 1311: 1308: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1288: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1275: 1274: 1273: 1272: 1261: 1260: 1259: 1258: 1251: 1250: 1249: 1248: 1223: 1220: 1218: 1215: 1166: 1163: 1159: 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