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including physical systems. Open systems is the study of living systems. It is a serious error to assume systems theory is just a complex kind of organization theory as if that would explain everything systems theory is about. Technically, systems theory is not a theory but a different way of looking at the
Universe and all within it. C. Systems theory as an accepted science is usually attributed to the formation of the society for general systems studies. Macy Conference may be relevant but it was not the spark that lit the fire. The relativistic notions undrelying the philosophy of systemics, go back very far in our history. D. Modern scientific advances refuted classical mechanistic assumptions, beginning with Planck's black body radiation experiments, and in particular those assumptions that objects can be studied in isolation. Perhaps the most sigtnificant difference between conventional science ans systems thinking is the realization that there are properties of the whole which cannot be found in the parts alone. The wetness of water cannot be found in the constituent gases. E. The correct spelling is Laszlo
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there is an attempt to ignore the writings of the primary authors, and replace it with the writings of the editor. That would work if they both said the same thing. This article does not capture the essence of systems theory as it is known among those who practice it. Systems theory is not organzational theory, it is interactional theory. Objects organize, dynamics interact. We respect the languange of our luminaries and realize the significance of properly framed metaphors and models. We do not see any value in using complicated language to describe a complex subject. Can anyone do better than this paragraph by Senge below? This is how good writng reads. It is not an improvement to muddle the language, miss the point, mislead the reader and fail to impart critical information. The article as it reads now is extremely harmful in that it reduces a science to nonsense
463:" Mechanistic assumptions were particularly critiqued, especially the industrial-age mechanistic metaphor of the mind from interpretations of Newtonian mechanics by Enlightenment philosophers and later psychologists that laid the foundations of modern organizational theory and management by the late 19th century (Bailey 1994; Flood 1997; Checkland 1999; La(s)zlo 1972). Newton evidently did not become obsolete with the work of Max Plank in quantum physics and the general advances in scientific thought, but questions arose over foundational assumptions that historically influenced the general organization of social, political and cultural life."
472:,"The research project that resulted influenced major applied and theoretical areas from sociology to organizational theory. The systems view was based on several fundamental ideas. First, all phenomena can be viewed as a web of relationships among elements, or a system. Second, all systems, whether electrical, biological, or social, have common patterns, behaviors, and properties that can be understood and used to develop greater insight into the behavior of complex phenomena and to move closer toward a unity of science. System philosophy, methodology and application are complementary to this science "
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progress. My apologies, that, with the talking the talk on the talk page without walking the walk to actually contribute to the page, with the confusion over user IPs, and the mixing of commenator's names to comments, I am not entirely focused to working on the page. Your commentary is evidenlty helpful if I would ever choose to return to work on the page. It is unfortunate that previous talk for the page has not more effectively brought users together to improve the article. The page is still there for other users to change, including yourself. Thank you for your time. --
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physical and social sciences, engineering, and management. ...During the last thirty years, these tools have been applied to understand a wide range of corporate, urban, regional, economic, political, ecological, and even psychological systems. And systems thinking is a sensibility—for the subtle interconnectedness that gives living systems their unique character. Peter Senge "The Fifth
Discipline"
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Systems theory is metatheory, that is, it applies to theory in general. It considers observations that were not observed before in orthodox theory. Because the basis f system theory is a new way of looking, it can be argued that it did not evolve from a lower science. Remember almost all science is specific, systems theory is general. G. The article says
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Systems thinking is a discipline for seeing wholes. It is a framework for seeing interrelationships rather than things, for seeing patterns of change rather than static “snapshots.” It is a set of general principles—distilled over the course of the twentieth century, spanning fields as diverse as the
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what is "an evolved ideation from orthodox theories."? I never heard the word "system theorist" before, and I never heard the word "alternative" in the sense above, I don't know what ideation means, and I am not sure what orthodox theories are either. Alternative and evolved do not fit together here.
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hmmmmm this needs a lot of work. Do you mean to say "old ideas were used in the new science" N. Fritjof Capra is not a system theorist per se. I wish he was. On the other hand, I guess it is the "theorist" part that I don't grasp. Theory is only a part of systems theory, so it would be hard to
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Special case is not being used properly. All instances are special cases. All atomic and molecular systems are closed systems. V. Things like cultural systems, international system, economic system, belong is "system" article not systems theory article. W,X,Y & Z I just now realize that
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does not give me any uiseful information whatsoever. What are the mechanistic assumptions? The mechanistic metaphor? What did the
Enlightenment philosophers really say? What are the foundations of modern organizational theory? How can a person (Newton) become obsolete? What worl of Planck? What
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I am sorry that it had to come to this. I am banned from editing at wikipedia for unknown/unstated reasons and my request for appeal has been ignored. I have no desire to work where to do the good thing is doing the wrong thing. We might have made a good team Ken, you demonstrated how a good
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Tom, I see that you have done much to offer review and points of consideration for the article. Many of the issues are topics that were on my mind for correction, and points which I specifically noted on the talk page that I would make aims to correct. The work on the page has been much in
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A. Systems Theory is a "transdisciplinary" field of inquiry. It does not seek to integrate disclipines, rather it seeks to transcend them with common principles,(see definition below)All system theory websites acknowledge this fact. B. In its broadest sense it is the study of the
Universe,
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Oh, I am very sorry to hear that. I might have been more willing to touch base with your comments had not there been so much confusion, debate and banter on the talk page. Maybe possibilities will come again at another time. You can always contact me if you like. Take care.
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Actually it was the founders who sought to create a science for the benefit of mankind, and Bela, a life long teacher of systemics, maintained that systems science should be for the benefit of humankind. And Bela did not argue, but was stating a fact. H. The article reads
443:,"The shift was from absolute and universal authoritative principles and knowledge to relative and general conceptual and perceptual knowledge (Bailey 1994: 3-8), still in the tradition of theorists that sought to provide means in organizing human life. "
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find a systemist who studies only theory. O. Is
Richard Swanson G,A, Swanson? There are tens of thousands systemists, I guess I don't know them all, P. Debora Hammond has just begun her career, her book is her dissertation.
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should be "The theorists developed system models using holistic methodology to integrate different areas. Almost every sentence does not say anything useful, but rather is a movie critic kind of writing. J. The article reads;
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Bela states it better, that the whole has properties which are not found in the parts. This point is probably our number one insight, yet it was removed and replaced with "...knowing concepts both in parts and as a whole. "
394:" Bela H. Banathy, who argued - along with the founders of the systems society - that “the benefit of humankind” is the purpose of science, has made significant and far-reaching contributions to the area of systems theory."
439:|} We have BOTH closed and open systems. We do not think of one competing with the other, Most of our concepts are complementary, meaning that both sides are equally considered as the case may be. L The article reads
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fails to mention that the web of relationships forms a whole which has properties not to be found in any analysis of the parts. Common properties? Common behavoirs? common patterns of what?
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The idea is that there are properties of the whole which cannot be found in the parts. Try and figure out what these words mean by studying the black ink or white paper.
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Very confusing writing. Banathy writes about a dozen of these shifts. Again, organizing life is a special case of the more general system theory. M The article reads:
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