1139:, introduced (in 2020): "Bob Mann was an American football player in the late 1940s and early 1950s. He was a star end (wide receiver in today's terminology) for the University of Michigan, where he teamed up with future Hall of Famer Len Ford to form a dynamic pass-catching duo. He entered the NFL with the Detroit Lions, where he played for two seasons. After a salary dispute, he was released and signed with the New York Yanks (not to be confused with the baseball team), although he never played for the team in the regular season. After being released by the Yanks, he claimed NFL owners blackballed him by all agreeing to not sign him. After a few months, the Green Bay Packers signed Mann, where he would play parts of five seasons until a knee injury ended his career. Mann would go on to become a lawyer in the Detroit area until he died in 2006. The quick overview above would make it seem like Mann was just another college football star who played in the NFL for a few seasons before professional football became what it is today. However, Mann's legacy goes far and above his statistics and physical abilities. Mann was a black player in football during a time of great racial prejudices. He broke the color barrier for both the Lions and Packers, he was cut by the Lions for not taking a pay cut (and possibly for supporting a boycott by the black community of a beer that he was a spokesperson for), even though he led the NFL in receiving yards the prior season. He was (arguably) blackballed by the NFL for his race and for not agreeing to take the pay cut from the Lions. Then he played for Green Bay, a town at the time that had only a handful of black residents. He has been called a pioneer for the dignified way he handled himself is such difficult situations."! --
2139:, so it appears that was not renewed. Neither was the Star Tribune (they do say that no newspaper issues from before 1945 outside of New York City were ever renewed). A single copyright notice on the periodical can cover any contained work (other than advertisements), so a claim of no-notice should really have more evidence supplied that no notice existed in the issue as a whole. Images which were widely supplied can be more problematic, since lack of notice on a relative few copies would not lose copyright, so if something was given out to hundreds of newspapers, the lack of notice in one particular newspaper may not mean anything. But, odds are there was a copyright notice, so unless you can see the entire issue, and can't find a copyright notice (usually with the publication and subscription information), that tag should not be there. If the photo was owned by the periodical, the lack of renewal would usually do it. If the photo came from elsewhere, i.e. had a different copyright owner, you may need to search with that other name in other record types. The
2068:. Very few states have statutes on their books which designate content created by their employees as part of their official duties as being within the public domain. So, at the very least, it should be assumed that the photo is copyrighted and then work backwards from there. Individual photos (e.g. PR photos) distributed separately from a print publication during that time did require individual notices, but there needs to be some way of veriying that's what happened here. Did you see the same photo used in other papers? Was the photo attributed to a source other than the paper if you did? For example, "Photo courtesy of XXX". "XXX wire photo" or something similar. If, however, it's attributed as something like "Staff photo", then that makes the paper the copyright holder and indicate the paper is the original source. --
2147:. These photos seem to be for local-interest stories, and likely not from a large photo service, but probably supplied to the newspaper (one for an obituary, and one I'm guessing for a local athlete playing for a professional team). Those photos could have been renewed explicitly, though that was exceedingly rare. I would remove the no-notice tags given the lack of evidence for them. But, the not-renewed tags seem likely to be correct. The periodical was not renewed (if they even had rights to renew in the first place) so you'd likely have to find a renewal in the specific photographic renewals. It's usually good to document the names searched for. Disproving it is also straightforward -- find a renewal for it.
1984:(e.g. they got it from a wire service) citing the paper as the source implies that's where it was first published. Do you know why this photo appeared in that particular paper? My guess is that it was part of an obituary, which means there's a good chance the paper got the photo from somewhere else. If the same photo appeared in other papers around roughly the same time then perhaps one of them mentions where it got the photo. Where, by the way, did you get the photo? Do you have
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1908:) individual photos appearing in a newspapers or other print publications (excluding those which were part of an advertisement) were not required to have individual copyright notices under US copyright law at the time; they were considered covered the copyright notice for the publication as a whole. In other words, not having a copyright notice wouldn't make the photo
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couple of your non-free images of old football players orphans with new images. I'm starting to build a pretty good archive of old football magazines and programs and am figuring out how to navigate the straits with respect co copyright... So if there is anything I can do for you down the road to help illustrate a football bio with a portrait, drop me a line.
2424:. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Knowledge (XXG). If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Knowledge (XXG) (see
1255:. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Knowledge (XXG). If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Knowledge (XXG) (see
982:. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Knowledge (XXG). If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Knowledge (XXG) (see
730:. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Knowledge (XXG). If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Knowledge (XXG) (see
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692:(98,000). While many early NFL players were previously notable as college stars, many others were not. Indeed, many were simply local residents or factory workers who played for love of the game, pride in their community, and a little extra money on autumn weekends. In the end, each case has to be assessed, honestly and fairly, on its merits.
370:, you provided some citations. I had already searched fairly hard and failed to turn up those, so I'm trying to learn how you did it. First of all, do we have a free way to use Newspapers.com or do you have a personal subscription? Second, do you remember how you found the Press & Guide article? Thank you for any hints.
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to these two files but there's no need to do so if the file is "PD-ineligible-no notice". Similarly, there's no need to have a "PD-ineligible-no notice" template if the file is "PD-ineligible-not renewed". Trying to cover all bases by adding more templates isn't really a good approach to follow here.
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Hi there! I tell ya, I just did an exploration of the edit history to figure out who put rudimentary schedule tables on all the old Oregon State
University team articles and you are fast becoming my new favorite Wikipedian. I should barn star you again, dammit! Anyway, I also see that I've rendered a
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Good
Evening Cbl62, I was researching some article I was about to write and came across this basketball coach. I found that the coach and the NFL player are the same? I am not sure. If so the article needs some update. Also I think this is a father son duo that bove were football players that became
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There is no note attributing this photo to a
Pantagraph staff photographer (or to anyone). By way of comparison, I looked through other pages of the same newspaper and found numerous photographs that are marked as "Pantagraph Photo". E.g., pp. 7, 9, 10, 12, 27, 32 of the same issue. The absence of
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issue you're citing as the source? Did you find it online (maybe via a site like newspapers.com)? Is it an old clipping that you had or someone gave to you? These could help sort out itself copyright status. If this image is truly PD, there's no reason for it to remain hosted locally on (English)
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The
Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members were invited to submit their applications for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please
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I will add that programs are the key to life... They frequently include portraits of entire teams and almost invariably were published with no notice of copyright in first publication, which makes them fair game through 1977. Old football mags are 25 year terms and invariably those were never
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We agree on more than we disagree. I don't question the importance of the early NFL as an important phase in the history of
America's most popular sport. For this reason, every early NFL team and season is notable and warrants a stand-alone article (including its roster of players). What I do
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Files licensed as such are, in principle, really better off hosted on
Commons because it makes them much easier to use by other WMF projects. Files uploaded to Knowledge (XXG) are local files in the sense they can only be used on English Knowledge (XXG); in other words, they will need to be
2143:(archive link since the main one seems to be down at the moment) has links for every year -- renewals would be either 27, 28, or (rarely if received at the end of the year) 29 years after publication. For items published 1951 and later, the renewals can be searched in the 1978+ records at
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until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
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Yes, I searched the
Stanford copyright renewals database and found no renewals for any photographs of Michael Seyfrit (or, for that matter, anyone named Seyfrit. It's my understanding that the Stanford database is the most complete database available.
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and hosted there. Commons is a global project and its content can be more easily used by all the various WMF projects. Local content uploaded to
Knowledge (XXG) can only be used on Knowledge (XXG), and that's really only necessary if the content is
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It is interesting how both Fretyr's and Roesgo's first edits were to contact an admin about a page protection. They both also created blank user pages. Heck when I started
Knowledge (XXG), I didn't know what an admin, user or talk pages were, just
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has
1928:, that could be possible but it would need to be shown that the copyright holder didn't renew its copyright. Did you find this photo somewhere online? Did you scan it from sort of print publication? Did you try checking a site like
1796:), which may be an effort to deflect suspicion. Even so, 3 months after account creation, there are still no efforts by Fretyr to create any rivalry articles in main space. If it is a sock, it's not doing any real harm so far.
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Thanks for clarifying; however, if this photo appeared in a print publication, then it's the copyright renewal of the print publication, not the photo itself, that matters. Unless this photo originated somewhere other than
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A couple of notes -- the
Stanford database is good, but is only for books, not any other type of copyright registrations / renewals (i.e. no photographs, or periodicals, or artwork, etc.). However the UPenn list of
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The photograph appeared as part of the obituary of a public official (he was the Illinois director of public safety). The photograph is likely his official portrait, but it's not 100% clear. I clipped it from
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and include a link for the null result of your search in the upload link. No problems that way, plus you won't have to gut out the resolution to meet WP's weak fair use file policy. Hope this helps. —tim ///
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In accordance with our policy that Knowledge (XXG) is not for the indefinite hosting of material, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can
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for US works, such as Canada (50 pma), Mainland China (50 pma, not Hong Kong or Macao), Germany (70 pma), Mexico (100 pma), Switzerland (70 pma), and other countries with individual treaties. See
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I'm not sure if I've barnstarred you before for your excellent work on Early NFL biographies, but I'll do it again even if I have because excellent work is excellent. Keep it up!
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after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the
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and have a goal of getting it to GA and eventually FA. Looking ahead to the latter, I am trying to get some good public domain pictures for the article, and found
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in the United States because it was published in the United States between 1929 and 1963, and although there may or may not have been a copyright notice, the
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Sorry to bug you, but Newspapers.com is down for Knowledge (XXG) Library users, so would you be willing to clip a few articles for me? I would like clipped
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Portraits of public officials at the state,country or municipal level aren't typically within the public domain just for that reason alone as explained in
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This is a reminder that the voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) ends on May 9, 2024. Read the information on the
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downloaded and re-uploaded for someone to use them on another project (e.g. another language Knowledge (XXG)). I think you should tag these files with
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Multiple primary sources on Ancestry.com confirm the last name was "putman". Accordingly, I did make the move. Thanks for calling it to my attention!
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a former head football coach at the College of Emporia around 1923, the same Harold Grant that was the basketball coach at Oklahoma Baptist in 1922?
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I don't know. I just saw that Fretyr was blocked in May as being a sockpuppet. But the timing here is suspect. I don't get to make those decisions.-
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I know we've conflicted on how important the early NFL was before. I guess, my view is not exactly that the players always received sigcov
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player during the early years warrants his own stand-alone article. This presumptios is especially unwarranted for players who had only a
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Any interest in finding sources for it? Kipke and Cappon were such ballers you might be interested in the attempt to find out the
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Press reports refer to him as Putnam. I will check ancestry.com to see if i can confirm which is correct from official records.
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835:— all these old newspapers copyrighted their stuff for 25 years and then never renewed it because why would they???
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such a notation on the Seyfrit photo seems like pretty strong evidence that this one is not a "Pantagraph Photo".
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I've been watching, too - though my Eagles are out and I like both SF and the Lions - not sure who to root for :D
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in the league and those who played with the league's many small-city clubs (populations as of 1920) such as
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449:- as quickly as possible - which is why. If another user does this first, feel free to ignore this message.
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and his Topps card says Putman if you search Google images. Asking you since you're the creator, thanks.
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guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at
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guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 24#Anyone in a article-creating mood?
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In regards to the Michigan trainers, maybe you could add succession boxes or something? Just an idea.
1774:(I suppose he was wanting us to do his dirty work), then I think there may be circumstantial evidence.
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I've asked someone else to take a look a this. It will be sorted out one way or the other. --
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Eat, drink, and bask in the glory of Los Angeles in early June at the 9th not-annual Wiknic!
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You'd be advised to go back and tear out the non-free file rationale and redeclare this as
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was sentenced to death for aiding a Nazi pilot who had escaped from a prisoner of war camp?
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Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.
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I've started building out SoCal junior college football standings templates. Also created
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were already notable players by the time they entered the NFL, and that is oftentimes
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Note that I sent this message to another user - trying to expand the stub I started -
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renewed, so those are public domain through 1963 if non-renewal can be demonstrated.
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Thank you, both. I left the not renewed tag and removed the other from both photos.
429:(as well as any other parts to any of them). I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Michigan Wolverines football trainers
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was published without a copyright notice? You given the source as a 1955 issue of
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unless the publication it appeared didn't have a copyright notice. As for being
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As for Fretyr, there's some very minor initial editing to non-football article (
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Greetings! When you get a chance, can you please take a look at my question on
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My bad. I added the details at Wikimedia Commons. The image was published in
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To opt out of future mailings about LA meetups, please remove your name from
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You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.
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Pleased to make your acquaintance, I'm Tld61, for what it's worth. —tim ///
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they entered the NFL (for being star football players). Just my thoughts.
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Thank you for your submission to Knowledge (XXG), and happy editing.
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Thank you so much! That is extraordinarily helpful, much appreciated.
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regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
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Hello, Cbl62. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that
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Sounds probable, but noting in main space. Or did I miss something?
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Hello, Cbl62. It has been over six months since you last edited the
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I'll do what I can do. Been tied up with watching NFL. Go Lions!
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Fun to see this on the main page today Cbl62, good collab! :)
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Check stuff with the Stanford Copyright Renewal database <
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btw, I used the sources you provided in the subject article.
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to see whether there's any record of copyright renewal? --
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Knowledge (XXG):Requested articles/Sports/American football
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is suitable for inclusion in Knowledge (XXG) according to
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Template:1955 Western State Conference football standings
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File:Kitty Wells' & Red Foley's Golden Favorites.png
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A discussion is taking place as to whether the article
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Reminder to vote now to select members of the first U4C
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Orphaned non-free image File:George Corbett (1938).jpg
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I don't want to make false accusations but if Fretyr
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
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1770:has been blocked as his sock puppet after this
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1620:basketball coaches but I dont know for sure.
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2474:, so if you wish to retain the page, please
1582:, so if you wish to retain the page, please
1576:Draft:2001 Northwestern Eagles football team
1564:Draft:2001 Northwestern Eagles football team
1075:, so if you wish to retain the page, please
883:, so if you wish to retain the page, please
142:Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable
1416:Talk:1985 College Football All-America Team
1212:List of community college football programs
960:Orphaned non-free image File:Paul Crowe.jpg
482:Another user got to them for me - thanks.
2285:Knowledge (XXG)'s policies and guidelines
1368:Please help translate to other languages.
528:was updated with a fact from the article
1989:Knowledge (XXG); it would be better off
1510:Draft:List of homicides in New York City
1461:7600 Beverly Blvd, Los Angeles CA 90036
1455:Saturday, June 8 from 11:30 to 2:30 pm
1743:An IP keeps adding fake rivalries to
777:
195:1921 Centre vs. Harvard football game
7:
2482:that it be moved to your userspace.
1590:that it be moved to your userspace.
1398:On behalf of the UCoC project team,
1083:that it be moved to your userspace.
1018:Metropolitan Conference (California)
891:that it be moved to your userspace.
2489:so you can continue working on it.
1711:There is currently a discussion at
1597:so you can continue working on it.
1204:1969 junior college football season
1198:1969 junior college football season
1090:so you can continue working on it.
898:so you can continue working on it.
199:File:1919 Harvard football team.jpg
1532:List of homicides in New York City
1012:Junior college standings templates
818://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Cbl62
14:
2293:The article will be discussed at
2049:The above pretty much applies to
1069:Draft:Password (Kitty Wells song)
1057:Draft:Password (Kitty Wells song)
634:question is the presumption that
2461:
2360:
2273:
2053:as well. You seem to have added
1904:, but (assuming that's the same
1706:
1642:
1569:
1475:Get the details and join WikiLA
1440:
1319:
1062:
926:
870:
824:
776:
510:
166:Send New Year cheer by adding {{
17:
2468:Draft:1941 Panzer football team
2456:Draft:1941 Panzer football team
2179:for taking a look at these. --
1638:has been nominated for deletion
562:, and the hook may be added to
2502:14:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
1315:has been nominated for merging
1248:File:George Corbett (1938).jpg
168:subst:Happy New Year fireworks
1:
2449:02:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
2426:our policy for non-free media
2051:File:Lloyd Parsons (1941).jpg
1257:our policy for non-free media
984:our policy for non-free media
732:our policy for non-free media
582:00:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
1410:Consensus 1985 All-Americans
1137:Bob Mann (American football)
597:the players who were notable
495:00:46, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
478:00:04, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
460:23:35, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
439:20:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
395:16:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
380:16:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
354:21:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
340:13:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
325:13:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
245:. Good luck with the GA/FA.
241:, November 22, 1919, page 8
2394:22:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
2348:19:42, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
2319:15:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
1469:(It's a potluck. There's a
1446:The Return of the LA Wiknic
599:, if you know what I mean.
283:14:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
255:09:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
225:03:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
189:Harvard team picture source
184:13:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
157:13:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
2517:
1896:File:Michael F Seyfrit.jpg
1894:Hi Cbl62. How do you know
1890:File:Michael F Seyfrit.jpg
1739:Possible CalebHughes sock?
1495:MediaWiki message delivery
1353:23:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
1307:14:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
1280:02:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
1202:Kicked off an article for
1108:Are these the same person?
1103:02:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
1049:19:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
1034:17:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
1007:17:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
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855:00:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
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2259:22:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2225:21:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
2206:Copy to Wikimedia Commons
2189:21:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
2171:14:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
2157:13:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
2145:https://www.copyright.gov
2114:06:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
2092:06:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
2078:05:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
2066:WP:PD#US government works
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2018:05:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
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1734:20:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
1664:categories for discussion
1610:17:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
1557:23:04, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
1463:Get the details and RSVP
1439:
1341:categories for discussion
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1228:20:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
1190:16:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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723:File:Bill Baumgartner.jpg
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702:22:06, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
621:19:32, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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1697:01:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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1428:00:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
1382:voting page on Meta-wiki
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1595:request it be undeleted
1405:23:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
1208:Junior college football
1088:request it be undeleted
896:request it be undeleted
297:Could you move this to
2411:
2003:Do not move to Commons
1540:request its undeletion
1519:
1390:review the U4C Charter
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969:
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593:for playing in the NFL
568:Did you know talk page
170:}} to user talk pages.
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106:Happy New Year, Cbl62!
2414:Thanks for uploading
2409:
2368:The Editor's Barnstar
2135:does not mention the
1615:John Outlaw/JJ Outlaw
1524:Articles for Creation
1518:
1473:on the meetup page.)
1245:Thanks for uploading
1240:
972:Thanks for uploading
967:
936:The Original Barnstar
720:Thanks for uploading
715:
121:
114:
2243:history in the South
2237:Southern basketball?
1659:the category's entry
1508:Your draft article,
1336:the category's entry
1135:Thank you today for
877:Draft:Samuel M'Pemba
865:Draft:Samuel M'Pemba
815:in the United States
802:Commons:Hirtle chart
784:This work is in the
193:Hi! I am working on
2353:A barnstar for you!
2133:periodical renewals
1530:page you started, "
975:File:Paul Crowe.jpg
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688:(pop. 87,000), and
564:the statistics page
505:DYK for Max Stephan
401:Requested clippings
2454:Concern regarding
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1562:Concern regarding
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1253:claim of fair use
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1819:User:Roesgo
674:East Orange
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629:BeanieFan11
613:BeanieFan11
558:Max Stephan
541:Max Stephan
532:Max Stephan
487:BeanieFan11
452:BeanieFan11
431:BeanieFan11
299:Earl Putman
292:Earl Putnam
2494:FireflyBot
2137:Pantagraph
2008:stuff. --
1933:.copyright
1790:John Lydon
1702:ANI notice
1602:FireflyBot
1095:FireflyBot
1024:. Thanks,
903:FireflyBot
682:Evansville
680:(58,000),
654:Portsmouth
650:Pottsville
554:here's how
2478:again or
2303:finished.
2217:Marchjuly
2181:Marchjuly
2177:Clindberg
2099:Marchjuly
2084:Marchjuly
2070:Marchjuly
2010:Marchjuly
1960:Marchjuly
1944:Marchjuly
1586:again or
1484:this list
1471:wish list
1079:again or
919:Nice work
887:again or
646:Tonawanda
609:why / how
587:Early NFL
538:... that
2433:articles
2315:contribs
1996:non-free
1850:saying.-
1668:Justin (
1345:Let'srun
1264:articles
1220:Jweiss11
1039:Thanks.
1026:Jweiss11
991:articles
739:articles
576:RoySmith
368:this AfD
366:Hi - In
277:contribs
263:PCN02WPS
233:PCN02WPS
219:contribs
205:PCN02WPS
144:New Year
26:Archives
2480:request
2476:edit it
2289:deleted
2175:Thanks
1662:on the
1588:request
1584:edit it
1420:Jb45424
1339:on the
1299:Carrite
1081:request
1077:edit it
944:Carrite
889:request
885:edit it
847:Carrite
670:Kenosha
662:Hammond
605:usually
387:Ike9898
372:Ike9898
2213:WP:MTC
1719:Eagles
1285:Photos
1163:(talk)
690:Duluth
686:Canton
678:Racine
666:Muncie
579:(talk)
176:Abishe
149:Abishe
2441:B-bot
2215:. --
2196:Cbl62
2163:Cbl62
2106:Cbl62
2037:Cbl62
1967:Cbl62
1866:Cbl62
1823:Cbl62
1798:Cbl62
1528:draft
1272:B-bot
1182:Cbl62
1041:Cbl62
999:B-bot
843:: -->
809:PD-US
747:B-bot
694:Cbl62
637:every
470:Cbl62
346:Cbl62
332:Cbl62
247:Cbl62
138:Cbl62
2498:talk
2445:talk
2388:talk
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2221:talk
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1971:talk
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1935:.gov
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1724:24/7
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1477:here
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