1941:
during the course of a number of polls, which were binding (even when there were only slim majorities) without recourse or appeal, because that was what the participants agreed to. I hope never to see the like again here. It was all over whether something should be called State Route or Route or
Massachusetts Route etc... Don't let it come to that. Be the first to set the sniping aside, turn a new leaf, reach out and work with everyone, yes everyone, to find a compromise that everyone can live with. Please. (Because I was the admin that handed out the most blocks during USRD and I swore I'd never do that again) ++
2025:. I think if Gryffindor and PhJ can just join the discussion and begin by expressing their opinion on why this article isn't at a neutral location (and what they believe would be more neutral), that would actually help start a constructive dialog. Obviously we aren't going to get anywhere by yelling "South Tyrol is right!".. no, no, "Alto Adige is right!". We may or may not be neutral with our solution, I don't know... but, we really tried hard with the page split, etc. But only constructive criticism is going to help, not accusations of being unethical. We had this discussion for almost a
1152:, so I'd rather just discuss ideas on your or my talk pages. IMO we can split the topic into three main issues: how to name the region, how to name the province/area, and how to name places/objects in the province. For the former 2 there could be sufficient usage in English, which is the most relevant IMO. For the places/objects I think the solution found at
1958:
Yeah, that sounds quite horrible actually. I'll certainly give it one more try. I've really worked quite hard to push for just this sort of compromise; one that is all-inclusive. The added difficulty with something that involves a certain degree of politics is it makes it that much more difficult.
54:
I recognize that this user page belongs to the
Knowledge project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in
1912:
I tried mediation once before and I failed abjectly to come to grips, so if you go that route you'll need another mediator. It is a complicated and not easy to resolve question. Technically quite thorny compared to many of the ones mentioned in the place names style guide. I don't think the previous
1860:
on this talk page where we had a significant group of editors across languages and nationalities come together and come up with a neutral solution that was acceptable to everyone. The particular user who is steamed now has a particular history with these regional articles, and I'll just leave it at
1840:
I've added a summary for you at the talk page Lar. As I said a few months ago, I would be more than happy to do the leg work for you if you could finally help mediate a neutral convention to use for pages of this region. From your past work I would trust you the most, of course regardless of which
1940:
USRD was WAY nastier. And it involved hundreds, if not thousands, of articles, went to arbitration, and ended up with temporarily modifying what consensus means, as a solution was imposed on the participants by 6 admins who rode roughshod over them all, including handing out a fair number of blocks
1851:
Hello Lar, I responded to your request for more information again. The past votes never really reached a consensus; they turned into national-biased vote festivals -- always becoming quite harsh. To get away from the never-ending confrontation we tried a different approach to go with breaking off
1757:
Yes, I will do my best to do something. But it has to have buy in from the participants. I'd say use the mediation page to propose the next area to tackle (let's try to do them not all at once),... if there is already discussion on the talk page of an area article note that, or else start it on the
1688:
at all. The mediation started with the naming of the region - Lar took on too much with the assumption of a clean convention for names within the region. We can handle each situation as we did for the region... see if there is consensus, and go from there. The issue about the region was discussed,
2209:
This seems like a bit long for a disambig, those tend to be shorter and point to articles that people might be confused about that have similar names. But the intent is like a disambig, I agree. It seems reasonable enough at first glance. Have you proposed it anywhere yet? Was there resistance? I
1885:
You may have the best of intentions but I don't think these sorts of messages to me on my talk page are the best way to move forward. I'd rather try to focus on what has been agreed on and what can be done to move forward. I'd urge you to constructively seek common ground on the talk page itself.
1746:
Lar, is there anyway you can find the time to try and put together a naming convention for this region. I believe most people involved in the debate right now have too much baggage and bias. Even for myself, I would like to see someone make a neutral decision rather than leave it up to whatever
1930:
I don't know dude, this particular debate is just a quite nasty. The current solution is based on
Brittanica and is on top of that bi-lingual. Still.. nope, not good enough! :-) That is a shame you can't do the mediation for us though. :( I guess we'll need to go through this process anyway.
1747:
bias I have. Most importantly, and perhaps I'll get lambasted for it, but there are certain individuals involved who I believe have less than genuine intentions. Anyway, I could help you with any leg work you would need that you think I can do without influencing things. thank you.
1876:. You know what, the multi-ethnic discussions were sure good while they lasted. Knowing this particular user, he will be e-mailing and private-messaging a ton of people. I'd like some advice from your side? Point it out, or just watch this nasty game unfold again? take care,
2029:(and it was based on the idea of a split that was put forth a long time prior). Anyway, "dont make me stop the car" is perfect.. got my first Wiki-laugh of the week or month... I'm almost more curious now if this is a saying understood across cultures. :-) my best regards,
1994:, for me to "stop rambling". He makes claims and I simply refute them. Instead of debating he just makes insults. I know all editors should keep a high standard of civility, but do people who have been trusted with Admin priviledges need to lay out abuse like this?
1991:. I'm trying to ask PhJ what title he would suggest is more neutral than the one we selected. Is that not a fair question? :( I thought this would be a way to have a discussion rather than name calling -- as you suggested. Then this "Admin" says stuff like this
1633:
A very important note. This mediation offer concerned the greater overall naming convention to use in this region, not just the name of the region itself. We came up with a very good compromise for the regional name itself. I for one am still looking forward for
1649:
Since I was the mediator (who never accomplished anything...) I can't vote on the motion. but I am glad to hear that a name compromise for the region itself was arrived at. What of the other naming questions though? I seem to recall this was larger than just that.
1913:
votes were, exactly, majority rule, but sometimes there is no other way. The USRD arbitration case was like that. Really can't you all just get along? Does it really matter that much that it's worth hurling invective? Redirects can point to wherever you want. ++
1121:
That's a fast reply! If you need some help just let me know. Things seem pretty quiet around South Tyrol lately, apart from the occasional vandals who remove either the
Italian or the German names from the articles.
1081:
This is an unsual archive as it is not for a particular date. So items may get added to it as needed, but it is placed in the archive numbering sequence based on the latest activity date as of when it was archived.
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think it would be a good thing to create in place of the current redirect if consensus can be achieved for it as it adds information and steers the user in useful directions depending on what they seek. ++
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Good enough, though I'd still hope Lar can find the time to help with an overall solution. I saw it is dubious mostly because it caught a lot of us off guard, which of course is rather unsettling.
1903:
Fair enough. I just don't know what to do if it just becomes a majority rule game again. Do you think we should simply seek mediation, or do you want to formally participate in such a process?
1689:
voted upon, and has been settled, but the mediation does need to be officially closed. As for further naming (such as the province, etc) we can handle it just as was handled with the region.
1617:. I am happy to announce that the issue has been discussed, voted upon and settled. However the mediation offer still needs to be officially closed. Please take a minute to visit the page
1100:
not good! I need to buckle down and do all the reading needed. I do mean to do some work on this but have not made enough progress to even summarise the issues yet. Sorry for the delay. ++
1802:. I've personally had enough of Gryffindor's abuses on Knowledge. Please give advice on how we can have him investigated for the Administrative abuses he has been guilty of since 2005.
1385:- a well recognized and respected name (and expert guide) has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1671:
Lar, we just came up with a name for the region itself. You are 100% correct, it was much larger than just that. I feel it is rather dubious that
Gryffindor is attemping to do here.
1429:(the self-proclaimed largest independently-owned travel guide) regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1959:
We'll see, I was really impressed with the group that worked on this article during the last month. Hopefully this sort of compromise and collaboration can come back. regards,
119:
1441:(a privately-held German publishing company) - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1523:
Stuck in the evidence phase, because I'm a slacker... I get periodic nudges, see above in my talk... I do intend to address it soon, honest. (but have said that before). ++
72:. Please do not comment here, use my current talk page for that, thanks. It is part of a series of archives, see the box at right for the list and to navigate to others.
1492:
Great! Note my only concern was that you might not have time, etc. Is there anything a few of us (on both sides of the argument) can help in the grunt work? regards,
1475:
Yes i very much want to help with this and realise it's been a while, which I'm sorry about. Rarelibra provided some data, above, that might be relevant to this. ++
2197:, so any reader can find the information that matches his/her interests. This version also seems quite language-balanced. I would really like to hear your opinion.
1251:
1165:
OK, those three areas of division on the issues sound good. I don't yet have a clear understanding of which naming conventions do apply. thanks for your help... ++
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1401:(name speaks for itself) has world, regional, and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1421:
best travel guides available - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1393:- also expert in travel guides - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bozen".
1852:
the history section and focusing the article on the present-day province. The vote was then what to name the provincial article, and the bilingual name of
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so that anyone can express his/her opinion. I'll let you know the outcome. I agree that consensus should be achieved before any move. Best regards,
1562:
Hi Lar, I am removing this case from the MedCab cases list since nothing is going on. It doesn't need to be there for you to mediate it anyway. --
1465:
Hello Lar, just wanted to check with you if you were still going to be able to (eventually) help us come up with a naming convention. My regards,
2078:), it might also be possible to invert the names (Province of Bozen/Bolzano). After all, this is the convention used for instance in the article
1861:
that. :-) He did just post an accusation in the very section you asked for it to stop. :( Anyway, a more detailed summary is at the talk page.
1702:
I am fine with whatever the participants want to do. May I suggest we discuss this at the talk page of the mediation rather than here though? ++
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As far as proof, I am quite sure that the above sources are credible enough, especially in the sense of geographical knowledge, expertise, and
105:
1988:
Sorry to bug you Lar, but I'm now personally getting attacked by this
Gryffindor (an Admin, on top of everything). Is this really civil?
2185:
I think that this suggested disambiguation is informative, balanced and reasonably neutral. This version relates to the current articles
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one after. However, the naming dispute has been so long and "acidic" that it seems useless and not constructive to flame it again.
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1788:. We had a great group of editors finally move this page to the multilingual provincial name, as cited in Brittanica (!!).
1409:'s regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".
1872:
By the way, I can all but guarantee there is going to be a huge call of arms now to get people to come here and vote for
1572:
That's fine. If I actually manage to get anywhere with it I'll put it back. Just don't delete the page itself please. ++
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is a good starting point, might need some fine tuning. Do you know which naming conventions apply here?
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has been exhausting and I think that the current compromise is fine, although I might have preferred a
1131:
I could definitely use some help. If you're ever on IRC maybe we could plan out how best to do that. ++
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Hi Lar, I'm just curious, how's the progress on the
Trentino-South Tyrol mediation? Best regards,
2231:
Thank you for your reply. I suggested my proposal to some of the contributors of the article and
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came on top (which happens to be cited through
Brittanica, etc.). This was the first discussion
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Other encyclopedias: Columbia doesn't have a separate article for the province, but the articles
1371:
I see that no traction has been made in the mediation process. Just thought you should know...
1309:
0.5k. The results for Alto Adige and Südtirol include clearly German and
Italian language pages.
2050:. I would like to hear your opinion on a possible different disambiguation concerning the term
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I did some research and checked with some pretty credible sources as to what they print, in
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Yeah, if you still want to help us out, it would be much appreciated.. even begged for. :}
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No, thank you for taking (hopefully not wasting) your time to simply keep this discussion
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mediation talk. I am on wikibreak so may not respond really fast but I DO want to help. ++
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and put your signature at the bottom if you agree with the decision, thank you. sincerely
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reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.
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clear common usage for
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Knowledge:Naming_conflict#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references
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is now having a hissy fit and saying this is the work of some "Italian"
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there was a mediation offer quite a while ago concerning the issue of
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All dates approximate, conversations organised by thread start date
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An index to all my talk page archives, automatically maintained by
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2004:
Thank you for sharing your concerns. I'll take another look. ++
1619:
Knowledge:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-10-20 Trentino-South Tyrol
1191:
The most interesting guideline for this topic is this one IMO:
2070:. Since the linguistic majority of the province is German (as
1812:
What steps in dispute resolution have you tried so far? ++
1220:
For what it's worth, I did some of the tests described in
2046:
Hello, and thank you for your mediation efforts on the
1992:
1797:
1378:, for the name of this region (and province) in Italy.
1799:
Gryffindor is going back and reverting edits in mass
1343:
use "provincia of Bolzano-Bozen", same for Encarta,
2092:What I find unsatisfactory is the redirection from
2048:
discussion page about the Province of Bolzano-Bozen
1684:I don't feel that Gryffindor is doing anything
1335:use "Bolzano province", same for Britannica,
113:
8:
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2143:German-speaking part of the County of Tirol
1205:Knowledge:Naming conventions (common names)
1195:. Some applicable naming conventions etc.:
279:1 September 2006 through 15 September 2006
2128:, including the Italian-speaking areas of
1784:Hi Lar, please, please help key an eye on
1215:Knowledge:Naming conventions (use English)
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1033:1 January 2023 through 1 January 2025 ??
388:1 February 2007 through 15 February 2007
339:1 December 2006 through 15 December 2006
329:15 November 2006 through 1 December 2006
319:1 November 2006 through 15 November 2006
289:15 September 2006 through 1 October 2006
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993:1 December 2013 through 1 December 2016
983:1 December 2012 through 1 December 2013
895:1 November 2010 through 1 December 2010
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637:1 November 2008 through 1 December 2008
617:1 September 2008 through 1 October 2008
508:1 November 2007 through 1 December 2007
488:1 September 2007 through 1 October 2007
378:15 January 2007 through 1 February 2007
349:15 December 2006 through 1 January 2007
309:15 October 2006 through 1 November 2006
269:15 August 2006 through 1 September 2006
1148:IRC 'fraid not, I'm pretty busy in the
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924:1 January 2011 through 1 February 2011
905:1 December 2010 through 1 January 2011
885:1 October 2010 through 1 November 2010
865:1 August 2010 through 1 September 2010
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478:1 August 2007 through 1 September 2007
368:1 January 2007 through 15 January 2007
299:1 October 2006 through 15 October 2006
1023:1 January 2021 through 1 January 2023
398:15 February 2007 through 1 March 2007
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2042:Province of Bolzano-Bozen/South Tyrol
934:1 February 2011 through 1 March 2011
805:1 February 2010 through 1 March 2010
676:1 February 2009 through 1 March 2009
547:1 February 2008 through 1 March 2008
259:1 August 2006 through 15 August 2006
7:
2158:Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen
1841:way you decide. talk to you later,
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408:1 March 2007 through 15 March 2007
249:15 July 2006 through 1 August 2006
2100:. I propose something as follows:
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2191:History of Alto Adige/South Tyrol
2160:, a political subdivision of the
1224:for the region and the province:
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219:1 June 2006 through 15 June 2006
70:South Tyrolean and related topics
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149:start through about 22 Jan 2006
1509:Hey Lar, what is the status of
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159:22 Jan 2006 through 1 Mar 2006
2235:posted it on the talk page of
2132:, in past times also known as
1835:Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
1589:All closed cases can be found
1439:Langenscheidt Publishing Group
1261:Other encyclopedias: Columbia
1055:(27 Dec 2005) through present
418:Trentino — South Tyrol topics
169:1 Mar 2006 through 1 Apr 2006
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2054:. The naming dispute for the
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1095:20:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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2223:17:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
2204:03:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
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1543:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol
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1210:Knowledge:Naming policy poll
1200:Knowledge:Naming conventions
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1161:16:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
1154:Talk:Communes of South Tyrol
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973:My post 2012 archived talk
914:My 2011/2012 archived talk
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77:User:HBC Archive Indexerbot
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1415:Dorling Kindersley or "DK"
2237:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
2195:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
2164:, which is also known as
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2056:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
1983:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
1854:Province of Bolzano-Bozen
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1606:motion to close mediation
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1347:uses Bolzano Province.
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656:My 2009 archived talk
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139:My 2006 archived talk
64:This is an archive of
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2201:FrancescoMazzucotelli
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2074:correctly points out
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1615:Trentino-South Tyrol
1558:Trentino-South Tyrol
1248:Trentino-South Tyrol
1237:Trentino-South Tyrol
1086:Trentino-South Tyrol
1460:Trentino-Alto Adige
1417:- by far, probably
1367:Trentino-Alto Adige
1353:I'd say that there
1337:Trentino–Alto Adige
1329:Trentino–Alto Adige
1295:Province of Bolzano
1271:Trentino–Alto Adige
1267:Trentino–Alto Adige
1263:Trentino–Alto Adige
1256:Trentino-Alto Adige
1233:Trentino-Alto Adige
1437:- a subsidiary of
97:Talk Page Archives
2162:Republic of Italy
2116:the areas of the
1307:Province of Bozen
1252:Trentino-Südtirol
1241:Trentino-Südtirol
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2147:Kingdom of Italy
2112:) may refer to:
1638:to help us out.
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1610:hello there,
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66:User talk:Lar
61:
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18:User talk:Lar
2232:
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2082:, where the
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1399:Rand McNally
1375:
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63:
59:
53:
52:
34:
2135:Welschtirol
2094:South Tyrol
2052:South Tyrol
1874:South Tyrol
1780:Please Help
1505:MedCab case
1435:Hammond Map
1314:South Tyrol
1287:South Tyrol
1048:RFA Archive
2166:Alto Adige
2138:in German.
2072:Icsunonove
2031:Icsunonove
1996:Icsunonove
1961:Icsunonove
1933:Icsunonove
1905:Icsunonove
1878:Icsunonove
1863:Icsunonove
1843:Icsunonove
1804:Icsunonove
1790:Gryffindor
1749:Icsunonove
1624:Gryffindor
1322:Alto Adige
1283:Alto Adige
1269:, Encarta
1150:real world
1029:Archive 84
1019:Archive 83
1009:Archive 82
999:Archive 81
989:Archive 80
979:Archive 79
960:Archive 78
950:Archive 77
940:Archive 76
930:Archive 75
920:Archive 74
901:Archive 73
891:Archive 72
881:Archive 71
871:Archive 70
861:Archive 69
851:Archive 68
841:Archive 67
831:Archive 66
821:Archive 65
811:Archive 64
801:Archive 63
791:Archive 62
772:Archive 61
762:Archive 60
752:Archive 59
742:Archive 58
732:Archive 57
722:Archive 56
712:Archive 55
702:Archive 54
692:Archive 53
682:Archive 52
672:Archive 51
662:Archive 50
643:Archive 49
633:Archive 48
623:Archive 47
613:Archive 46
603:Archive 45
593:Archive 44
583:Archive 43
573:Archive 42
563:Archive 41
553:Archive 40
543:Archive 39
533:Archive 38
514:Archive 37
504:Archive 36
494:Archive 35
484:Archive 34
474:Archive 33
464:Archive 32
454:Archive 31
444:Archive 30
434:Archive 29
424:Archive 28
414:Archive 27
404:Archive 26
394:Archive 25
384:Archive 24
374:Archive 23
364:Archive 22
345:Archive 21
335:Archive 20
325:Archive 19
315:Archive 18
305:Archive 17
295:Archive 16
285:Archive 15
275:Archive 14
265:Archive 13
255:Archive 12
245:Archive 11
235:Archive 10
41:Archive 28
35:Archive 27
29:Archive 26
2233:will post
1691:Rarelibra
1511:this case
1451:Rarelibra
1359:Markussep
1278:Province
1158:Markussep
1124:Markussep
1092:Markussep
225:Archive 9
215:Archive 8
205:Archive 7
195:Archive 6
185:Archive 5
175:Archive 4
165:Archive 3
155:Archive 2
145:Archive 1
68:covering
2174:Südtirol
2130:Trentino
2110:Südtirol
2062:(Bolzano
1595:Ideogram
1564:Ideogram
1515:Ideogram
1391:Michelin
1318:Südtirol
1291:Südtirol
1053:Howcheng
2170:Italian
2088:Finnish
2084:Swedish
2080:Åboland
1686:dubious
1447:English
1383:Fodor's
1376:ENGLISH
1345:Bolzano
1341:Bolzano
1305:0.06k,
1228:Region
2178:German
2106:German
2068:hyphen
1796:vote.
1301:0.5k,
1293:305k,
1289:494k,
1285:369k,
1235:1.2M,
2187:Tyrol
2027:month
1729:Taalo
1673:Taalo
1640:Taalo
1593:. --
1550:Taalo
1513:? --
1494:Taalo
1467:Taalo
1333:Tyrol
1297:25k,
1239:79k,
1079:Note:
16:<
2193:and
2172:and
2156:the
2151:1918
2141:the
2076:here
2023:cool
1858:ever
1794:sham
1591:here
1339:and
1331:and
1316:18,
1250:and
1243:14k.
2212:Lar
2149:in
2096:to
2006:Lar
1943:Lar
1915:Lar
1888:Lar
1814:Lar
1760:Lar
1704:Lar
1652:Lar
1636:Lar
1574:Lar
1525:Lar
1477:Lar
1419:the
1324:18.
1320:2,
1254:0,
1167:Lar
1133:Lar
1102:Lar
83:.
2214::
2189:,
2108::
2008::
1945::
1917::
1890::
1886:++
1816::
1762::
1706::
1654::
1650:++
1576::
1527::
1479::
1355:is
1258:4.
1169::
1135::
1104::
39:|
27:←
2220:c
2218:/
2216:t
2180:.
2153:.
2064:/
2014:c
2012:/
2010:t
1951:c
1949:/
1947:t
1923:c
1921:/
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1658:/
1656:t
1582:c
1580:/
1578:t
1533:c
1531:/
1529:t
1485:c
1483:/
1481:t
1273:.
1175:c
1173:/
1171:t
1141:c
1139:/
1137:t
1110:c
1108:/
1106:t
121:e
114:t
107:v
43:→
31:|
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