User talk:Marco79 - Knowledge (XXG)

787:(2005), which uses non-rhotic transcriptions. In it, it gives the adjective Melburnian as /mɛlˈbɜːniən/, and the nouns Melbourne and Jarvis Bay as /ˈmɛlbən/ and /ˈdʒɜːvəs, ˈdʒɑːvəs/ respectively — using compromised English non-rhotic transcriptions from WP:IPAEN. If we were to merge the compromised transcription with the Australian transcription, then I'd prefer to use a compromised non-rhotic transcription, which is also used in Australian English dictionaries: the Macquarie Dictionary and the Australian OED. This would also be in keeping with the 580:

unstressed. Now I'm not going to guess their intentions, so I'll just use what they have used. MD only gives a broad transcription — as most dictionaries do — and as such they don't go into the details that a narrow transcription would. I think this is satisfactory for Knowledge (XXG), because it also uses broad transcriptions. If you feel the reduced vowel should be mentioned, then I'm not against using a local narrow transcription — using

481: 1002: 933: 357:. We're keen to receive feedback on the matter. Might I add that the differences between 17 February and February 17 are rather trivial at best, and most English-speakers have been exposed to both formats. American WPians see international formatting after every signature on talk pages, for example. But more important are our readers out there. 791:, even though it says nothing about pronunciation, which maybe it should. Thus, as this page is in Australian English (spelling, grammar, etc), I suppose, why not use Australian non-rhotic transcriptions too. Any rhotic speaker would probably automatically insert an /r/ where they think it would go anyway. 683:

No, I don't think it's superfluous in having three pronunciations. I think it's a big assumption by saying that "everyone knows that the Australian accent is non-rhotic", because that is simply not true. It's necessary to identify the differences between international and Australian pronunciations,

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Hi, sorry for the late reply, been so busy lately. In reply to your statement: when Australians pronounce "Lalor" they do not hear a "final 'r'", because our accent is a non-rhotic accent, which means we only pronounce an 'r' sound at the beginning of a syllable. But this final 'r' is present in the

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I thought I was using a compromise, which also includes references to each of the different pronunciations. The compromise being the standard international pronunciation first and the local (non-rhotic) pronunciations second (using narrow Australian transcriptions for the Australian accent). Also

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Unfortunately the OED doesn't include proper nouns, but it does have the proper adjective Melburnian, for which it gives two pronunciations: Brit. /mɛl'bənɪən/, U.S. /mɛl'bərniən/. Thus, I think for Melbourne we can lose and just use /ˈmɛlbən/. (And retaining as the only significant difference.)

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No, I don't have a source saying that John Jervis spoke with a rhotic accent. I was using the standard pronunciation transcription used in Knowledge (XXG), because no references were given. It is an assumption to state either rhotic or non-rhotic transcriptions without references to backup which

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Doesn't it seem a bit superfluous to have three different pronunciations given? I mean, everyone knows that the Australian accent is non-rhotic, so anyone who understands IPA and prefers to speak with a rhotic accent will be able to insert the R for themselves. Also, giving a rhotic pronunciation

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Maybe this is where we disagree - when I said that giving the rhotic pronunciation violates the National Varieties rule, I meant that I don't see rhotic accents as a standard international norm; there are at least two international standards. I would however, recognise it as such if the R were

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for example is so old that palatalization is indicated with an underhook rather than a superscript j. As such, arguing that the backwards epsilon, by being used commonly by linguists, is more accurate or better actually goes against some previous agreements on the vowel pages. Take a look at

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Yes, I think they do. It will make a distinction if there are strong and weak versions, for example, "will" has a strong /wɪl/ form and two weak /wəl/ and /l/ forms, so I guess they may use a schwa in place of an unstressed vowel, but I think they do this just to make the point that it is

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participating in the discussion, without responding to the reasons provided, and based on misconceptions about Knowledge (XXG) procedure. I wonder what makes you sure that your interpretation of policy is correct - have you got much experience working with naming conventions here?

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Yes, three different pronunciations is a kind of compromise but what I'm saying is that it's an unwieldy one. I agree that parentheses is not the best solution but it's surely much better than a whole extra pronunciation, which differs only in the presence of an

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I accept that you have a point, although I also think there's a strong case for having the various transcriptions there. One way forward might be to create a page with a table with the alternative transcriptions, with a clear link from the chart page there.

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included with these pronunciations are the references for the international pronunciation — which uses an /r/ — and the Australian pronunciations — which doesn't use an /r/. I'm not sure whether giving the rhotic pronunciation first is in violation of the

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sounds like a good first step. And I mean first step, because if we get a consensus there to use Australian non-rhotic transcriptions for all pages on Australian topics, the second step would then be to notify this consensus on the talk page of the

252:. The page itself says that this is more convention than accuracy. The IPA changes and one can use common sense to figure out what the phonetic character of a sound is without a source having to explicitely use that symbol. One of the sources for 496:

prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the

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That pronunciation has long been acceptable to Melbournians, so I doubt it will prove to be inaccurate. You might want to fact-tag it, but I don't see a reason to comment it out. It's also more likely to get fixed if it's visible.

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Anyone who actually cares about accents can work out that, in the mouth of a Sydney-sider it becomes , adding this info is beyond the scope of the article (and in no one's ears will they be mistaken for two different cities).

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I can't argue with the source (the Macquarie will give an adequate Australian transcription) and if a "local" transcription was used it would be /'dʌbrə/ with the merest hint of a preceding /m/ :-) I was just curious. --

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is a term that is too general for a worldwide encyclopedia such as this, so the full term of Australian Rules Football MUST be used to avoid confusion. any questions should be directed to the talk page here or at

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the number of local accents by collapsing the general Australian with the /international pronunciation/. It burdens the reader with too much information to transcribe the standard international pronunciation into

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edit you argue that it's perfectly all right to represent as but looking at the link you provided, that vowel is so high that it's in the close-mid space and so is better represented in the central close-mid

564:? I lived in Mundubbera for some time—of course my opinion carries no weight for wiki purposes—but I would have said the last two vowel sounds are completely different with the first being an unstressed " 34:

I mainly created this account to move a page to a correct title, but because I'm a new member it wouldn't let me. Now that I have returned after a week, I can't for the life of me remember the page name.

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A compromised non-rhotic pronunciation sounds like an excellent suggestion. (I agree that rhotic speakers will instinctively cope.) Let's go ahead and change them to those you got from the Macquarie.

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I don't really think it's original research. If you read AUE phonology you'll see that the symbol in question is so new that any literature older than ten years wouldn't use the <

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I seem to be stepping on your toes a bit. To clarify my edits, there's no reason to merge the cells for two different dialects if there are two different example words, according to

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because not everyone reading the article is going to know the differences, so showing all transcriptions clarifies the differences, which are major differences that need to be shown.

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North American, North English and Irish accents, which is why the second pronunciation — in brackets — is there, which is to accommodate those accents that do use a final 'r'. –

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edit you revert it because you don't know what you're doing wrong. It's one example per dialect/language and if there's a word for both that applies... well you get the point.

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is for AUE and for NZE, and there's no writing system for paici so there's no reason to unmerge the cells. For more information, see the guidelines for these tables

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The round brackets are not advisable in the standard broad transcription used in Knowledge (XXG), because they are hard to read and makes the IPA harder to understand.

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I'm taking this way too seriously. Take a look at the table guidelines and if you figure this all out then more power to you. If not, there's always tomorrow.

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rule, because it doesn't state anything about pronunciation. BTW these "rules" are generally guidelines — to avoid edit wars — and are not hard-and-fast rules.

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Hi Marco, thanks for adding refs to some of my rough'n'ready IPA transcriptions. One question, however: Does the Macquarie treat every unstressed vowel as "

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Hello not sure of IPA but AL/ez/TREE is correct (g-g-grandad's property before the parish and locality); minor diff from Derbyshire pronunciation Cheers

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But this is pretty much the last time I'll be on Knowledge (XXG) for the next month so I'll see if I can remember to get back on this when I get back.

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page, which gives the proper IPA symbols for vowel qualities in Australian English and external links for further information on the Australian accent.

621:, with the first vowel having been reduced. BTW, before I looked in the Macquarie Dictionary for "Albury" I had always pronounced the city's name . – 415: 172: 852:

MOS page before the addition of this consensus is made to the page, which would be the third step. I think that this is the best way to go. –

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I personally don't see it as unwieldy, but I do see that someone unfamiliar with IPA could be overwhelmed by the amount of information given.

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Here's my suggestion: we first give /ˈdʒɑ(r)vɨs/ as the standard pronunciation, because it's the broadest transcription, then as the local.

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I think you're right that the national varieties of English page needs to say something about pronunciations. I'm not sure where to start —

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This old chestnut has reared its head again - as you commented before I thought I'd let you know in case you wish to do so again:

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Since posting my message I've since had a look at the Melbourne page so let this go for the pronunciation of Melbourne as well:

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Hi Marco—in response to your query at the Australia talk page, the disadvantages of using the function are set out under cap

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Likewise, there's no need to convert /ɑː/ into /aː/ - anyone who cares about Australian accents can do that themselves. The

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than the NZE example. If they truly are the same and the same word can be illustrative for both dialects (which, I believe

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indicated as optional. Citing Webster's for Jervis Bay and the American Heritage for Melbourne leaves me quite unconvinced.

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again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on

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Hi Tony, where would you like me to post any feedback I may have with regards to date autoformatting? –

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edit you summarize it by saying that they have the same vowel for "car and cart" but the AuE example is

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I suppose if someone wanted to understand and maybe learn the Australian accent, they can start at the

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Hi, I noticed you reinserted the rhotic pronunciations of Jervis Bay. Maybe we can find a compromise.

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Your redirect has been reverted, as the topic is NOT the rule book, but rather the rules themselves.

783: 428: 1010: 164: 1024: 821:? If we post a proposal there and get agreement, will we then have the right to add a line to the 714:

Let me rephrase my claim: everyone who has heard an Australian accent knows that it's non-rhotic.

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time local pronunciations are necessary is when they're unpredictable, like /ɜː/ instead of /aː/.

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Okay, sorry. Your vote is fine then since you've been around for a while. See you around. -

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Ok, thankyou. I'll change the /s/ to a /z/, but the other sounds are right. Cheers. –

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Can you pelase explain further, as there is no hint of a final "r" sound in "LAW-la".

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What I mean by "international pronunciation" is the compromised version used in the

914: 853: 799: 692: 622: 592: 584:— in conjunction with the broad transcription. As for "Mundubbera" they do give an 462: 377: 142: 44: 1001: 826: 747: 661: 518: 660:

Also, do you have a source saying that John Jervis spoke with a rhotic accent?

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No, I know where you're coming from but you're not following the table format.

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I think there are many Australian Knowledge (XXG) editors that prefer the

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describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

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It now lets me move pages, so edit count is unimportant, very cool.

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It probably still wouldn't let me move the page now, because of my

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If you wish to participate in the 2022 election, please review

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is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All

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So, the local transcription would be something like this:

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would do in this case) then pick a word and use it once.

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is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the

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Hello, You appear to have taken part in a vote to move

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The source I use for Australian pronunciations is the

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But what do you mean by "international pronunciation"?

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by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just

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Knowledge (XXG):Australian Wikipedians' notice board

728:, we should only show differences in pronunciation. 122:. I am a bit bothered that you reverted the move 31:Mark, Mark who? He he, only kidding. Yes it is me. 964:List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page: 295:Talk:Municipal_flag_of_Chicago#Requested_move 8: 272: 232: 179: 488:according to the reverts you have made on 97:Page move - American & British English 724:are about educating people in Australian 484:You currently appear to be engaged in an 416:Talk:Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster 16:Me new here as of 20th November 2005. 940:. I have automatically detected that 316:tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM 7: 1011:2022 Arbitration Committee elections 784:Macquarie Dictionary, Fourth Edition 513:among editors. If necessary, pursue 1029:Knowledge (XXG) arbitration process 995:ArbCom 2022 Elections voter message 845:Australian Wikipedians Notice Board 730:So, in fact, I'm proposing that we 823:national varieties of English page 789:national varieties of English rule 645:national varieties of English rule 334:Building of the World Trade Center 327:Building of the World Trade Center 263:Talk:Open-mid back unrounded vowel 14: 1000: 931: 479: 1050:and submit your choices on the 776:Knowledge (XXG):IPA for English 975:<ref name="Census2011": --> 1: 1075:00:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC) 990:14:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC) 889:04:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC) 850:national varieties of English 678:national varieties of English 92:12:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 64:15:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 52:15:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 49:15:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 921:10:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC) 908:10:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC) 769:Australian English phonology 433:19:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC) 355:in a section above your post 259:Talk:Near-open central vowel 161:Australian English phonology 860:14:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 843:Getting a consensus on the 835:16:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 806:15:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 756:17:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC) 699:14:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC) 670:19:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC) 344:04:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC) 1093: 1067:MediaWiki message delivery 455:10:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC) 118:Please see my comments at 969:| pop_footnotes = (2011) 866:Australian rules football 629:10:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 610:09:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 599:09:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 574:08:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC) 402:14:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC) 384:14:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC) 371:03:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC) 321:18:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC) 279:13:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC) 239:08:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC) 186:07:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC) 76:First of all, please see 1064:to your user talk page. 547:07:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 527:04:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC) 469:16:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC) 958:my operator's talk page 149:13:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC) 132:05:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC) 109:16:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC) 410:Big Ben vs Clock Tower 1025:Arbitration Committee 1008:Hello! Voting in the 588:(/ə/) in place of an 297:or at my talk page.-- 72:IPA chart for English 24:Is that you, Mark? - 948:may have broken the 552:Macquarie references 872:Australian Football 643:first violates the 501:. If you continue, 441:Lalor pronunciation 349:Date-autoformatting 165:New Zealand English 101:Please see message 1041:arbitration policy 515:dispute resolution 61:Haukur Þorgeirsson 26:Haukur Þorgeirsson 1077: 946:Shire of Campaspe 499:three-revert rule 494:three-revert rule 447:Supt. of Printing 388:On my talk page? 319: 254:Russian phonology 1084: 1065: 1063: 1004: 974: 935: 934: 778:(WP:IPAEN) page. 691:one was used. – 620: 586:unstressed vowel 492:. 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