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CH role has happened over a period spanning more like 80 or 90 years, rather than the ten year playing career of Cowan that you just claimed. But I fully agree it has transitioned, and that it has moved from being a single player central midfield role to a dual player deeply defencive one. Cowan, Ewing, Heslop, Booth, Watson, McCarthy and
Kompany are all centre halves (if you prefer the "half back" terminology) or centre backs (if you prefer the alternative "wing back" terminology) and although the responsibilities and focus of these players has been different at the various eras in which they played, the commonalities of the role in each of the different eras far outweighs the differences. When he was still playing, Tommy Booth was considered to be both a "centre half" and a "midfielder" despite the fact that he wasn't doing very much in the middle of the field, and the other "half backs" (Doyle and Oakes) alongside him were doing a lot more than what had been earlier expected of a traditional 2-3-5 formation wing back. In fact, the term "2-3-5 formation" is pure revisionism - when teams were playing that formation they never referred to it as such (mostly because at that juncture it was the ONLY known formation and didn't need to be distinguished from any other one). It was only AFTER the advent of the 4-2-4 formation that earlier formations were referred to by similar numeric designations; likewise it was this same numeric designation that finally had people now correctly calling the centre back role a defencive one instead of a midfield one, despite the fact that it had become a purely defencive role twenty or more years prior to that.
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edits, plus a lot of the number changes may require much number crunching and rechecking behind the scenes in order to simply modify a single tally, which to the casual observer might appear as though it only required a ten second edit. But that is because you are looking at what you envisage the finished product will be like and assessing that it will require many edit changes to get there from here ... and, of course, it will. However, to give you an analogy, if I compare the current version of the article to what it looked like before I made my first edit on 25 June to simply fix the Nasri/AgΓΌero photo, and if back then my vision of what I wanted the article to ultimately look like was the current version, I probably wouldn't have made my first edit because it would have seemed like a humungous task to get from there to here and I wouldn't have wanted to embark on such an undertaking lest I broke the article and left it in an "under construction" state for a large portion of the time that it took for me to transform it. But I didn't have any such vision to deter me from making that edit; every change that I've done since has simply been a small iterative improvement on the previous one that only occurred to me after I viewed what I had already done. Sometimes my next edit was a "ce" edit to fix something I had broken, and in other cases it was done to make things consistent after having changed something significantly - such as putting the
3174:. They show Tommy Booth playing in the #2 shirt, not Book. Book played in the home league game against Southampton four days prior, and he also played in the away league match against Wolves three days later, so it appears to be a data entry error with Booth being entered as the right back instead of Book. This wouldn't have been possible if he had been playing as the centre half (#5) position as he normally did - because someone would have spotted two Tommy Booths in the team by now! - but Heslop was playing centre half against Honved. Checking into this a little further reveals that Booth appeared to get injured in, or just after, the home league game against Stoke City in mid-September. For a period of three months after the Stoke game until the derby match at Old Trafford in mid-December, Booth is out of the side and Heslop becomes the first choice CH for the duration. I hardly think they would have patched Tommy Booth up and played him as a right back in the middle of his injury period even if Book had to be out for one away European fixture. They would have played Arthur Mann - because, after all, 'arf a man is better than no man at RB at all! - or moved Pardoe (who was right-footed despite normally playing left back) over there and brought someone else in as left back - Dave Connor, Willie Donachie? So this one looks like a
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out of steam the article will still be left in a consistent and improved state, with all the players more correctly grouped together, and each player entry in either table containing more stats info. that is better verified and possibly better sourced (from a web based perspective) than those entries currently contain today. The actual divide between the two tables will be one based on normalised versus yet-to-be-normalised "other" stats data, but as far as the user reading the article would be concerned, the divide between the two tables would be a purely chronological one, with all players who made their first team debut before a certain year listed in Table A and all those who made their debut after that year listed in Table B. The year of that divide would, of course, be gradually changing, but not in any manner that would affect any of the current 150-250 daily readers of the article in any detrimental manner. I don't see any need at all to add one of those "work in progress" or "article under construction" banners at the top of the article while the table migration process was occurring. The editorial impact on the article to move one or a few players from Table A to Table B in a single edit update would be less intrusive from a reader's perspective than many of the edits that I've done over the last couple of weeks.
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titles. The new subordinate "Apps" and "Goals" column pairs for the league, domestic cups and "Other 1" games can, however, be made to be much thinner if we give them a single "G" or "A" title heading and restrict footnoting of appearances and goals to only the current "Totals" column pair. This means that we will need to add an additional line to the top of the current table header to identify "League", "Cups", "Other", "Totals" and "Addit." for the various column pairs only identified by "A" and "G" on the second line. The full "Apps" and "Goals" headings probably could remain for the "Totals" pair due to the footnotes requirement, which would also serve to clue the reader in as to what all the other "G"s and "A"s stood for too. ETA: Not only will the current "Totals" column pair not get any thinner, these two columns are actually going to get a little wider due to the fact that after the ninth footnote the footnote superscripts become 2 digits long instead of being just the single digit we have in the current table. Even if we didn't restrict all "Apps" and "Goals" footnoting to just these two columns they were bound to do that anyway. There is actually a very high likelihood that we may require more than 99 superscripted footnotes in one or both of those columns! Anyway, that's something else to consider.
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the footnote I've already written which you need to validate against James and let me know that you agree with it. I got a little ahead of myself in writing that particular footnote. I claim in it that James has Book playing in the game with Booth taking no part in the match. I happen to know that to be true because I saw City play every home game that season. That obviously doesn't help me with the away fixture at Honved but I definitely do remember him being out during one of his main seasons during the period I was a regular in the Kippax due to his having an operation on his knee to fix his cruciate ligament. Booth, Doyle and Oakes were almost regular fixtures in the team at that time, playing every game, so his absence from that mighty midfield triumvirate (and Heslop taking over the CH role) is something that I do still remember 45 years later, although until this issue came up to jog my memory I would not have been able to pin it down to the autumn of 1970. I'm surprised I even recall it after so long a period, but Google is your friend once you know what you are looking for, so I have now found a few articles out there that prove he could not possibly have played in that game. But that's all by-the-by; the footnote isn't about my own uncitable knowledge and fond memories. It addresses what
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bothered me. I felt that the stats. sourcing and table column definition info. were presented much better in the other article and decided it was something I could fairly easily bring over to this article to improve it, while also making the two articles more consistent. Thereby making the migration of players from the other article to this one easier for other editors to handle. It bothers me that information actually gets lost (e.g., international caps, number of league appearances and goals, etc.) the more significant - in terms of number of appearances - a current player becomes at the club, causing him to migrate from the top of the other article to this one. Giving more detail to subject matter that is relatively less notable and significant than other comparable subject matter is bizarrely topsy-turvy, and I'm quite certain it runs contrary to
Knowledge (XXG) guidance somewhere, though not being a Wikilawyer myself, I couldn't quote you chapter and verse. "The more notable a player is the less information we are going to tell you about him" effect resulting from the way the two articles currently interact most certainly appears to violate the standard structure and spirit of almost all reference material (not just encyclopedias), not to mention running contrary to plain common sense.
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person who created and maintained that web site unfortunately died before he had completed his basic goal of adding all the various statistics associated with the club's past seasons. I can live with the funky DOS-era eccentricities of the site such as the outrageous choice of fonts and the way the pages navigate, but my main problem with it is that I have no idea what is complete and what was in a state of flux when he unfortunately passed away. His choice to include almost every game played in a season - including practice kickabouts in
Wythenshawe Park, I think! - in the appearances and goals tallies unfortunately renders those totals mostly useless for our purposes. In almost all cases his stats for the players in the main table will differ from those of James due to his highly inclusivist approach. If you wish to start citing that site as a supporting RS in this particular instance then you open the door for his stats to be similarly used as the main supporting RS elsewhere in this article, which, to put it quite frankly, would be shooting yourself in the foot. His stats rarely agree with the comparable ones from James, but his are web citable while James' stats are not, so guess how that situation is going to play out if you start using
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this manner, and keep the column headings minimalistic, the new subordinate columns to the left of the current "Totals" column will all be thinner than the current pair. The new "Other 2" column pair - let's call it "Additional" for now since it will document additional appearances and goals scored not included in the "Totals" column pair to the left of it - will probably also have to permit footnotes. At least the "Apps" one will. That way, if you take a player such as Frank Swift, his "Apps" figure in the "Totals" column pair will be 375, but we could also include his three 1939 expunged league appearances in the "Additional Apps" column appropriately footnoted. That would simply mean moving the footnote from the "375" tally in the current "Totals" column pair and applying instead to the new "3" appearances tally in the "Additional" column pair (as it would be redundant to footnote the same discrepancy in both side-by-side columns). Thus the new "Additional" column pair possibly allows us to more elegantly show and document the wartime appearances and goals of the players who played in those 3 expunged 1939 league games which continually show up on other sources for those players' stats - including, most recently, the
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only created for Table B once we did the split. Once you have calculated what the numbers should be for those two column pairs, you migrate that player from Table A to Table B so that you can enter those numbers into the two "Other" columns that the player record is required to have in that table. This is no different than the process that a player record in the "25-99" article table, such as the entry for Jesus Navas, has to go through in order to be transferred to the main article list once he has played his 100th game, because the two article tables don't have exactly the same structure. Although Table A will contain only three column pairs and Table B will have all five column pairs, at any point the two tables will be internally consistent with what they are defined to contain, in the same way that the two article tables are internally consistent despite the fact the player records are structured differently in each article. At no point will this migration to the final Table B format require the article to be left in an "under construction" state. It will simply contain two tables structured slightly differently, one (Table B) slowly expanding over time while the other (Table A) is slowly shrinking.
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dates were correct IMO, while the M.E.N. dates were incorrect, in which case I suppressed them from my quoted text in the cited reference since, in those particular instances, the M.E.N. article only supported the stats. but not the career dates we are currently listing. At present, only the two dozen or so entries that I've sourced from M.E.N. are the only players whose dates I've spent any time verifying and you might wish to double-check the current career dates for those of the two dozen plus entries I've modified against James and let me know if you find any differences granted the new definition of the column. Even if James is not used as the primary sourced reference for a table entry - and he isn't in the case of those 24+ players who are now sourced from the M.E.N. articles - he should still be used as a ghost corroborative reference source for such entries. It is not my intent to clobber the James data, only to source it from the web where other editors can use it to revert vandalism and POV changes to what is currently there. You may also wish to check and adjust against James the career span dates of all the other players (besides those 24+) according to the new definition of that column.
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Cup or Watney Cup games! I'm assuming this sourcing info. applies to the data sourced from James because it cannot possibly apply to
Soccerbase related data - first, because Soccerbase wasn't in existence back then; and second, because even if it had existed, it would have ignored such games the same way it ignores the modern day equivalents such as the Barclays Asia Trophy or the World Football Challenge. So what the main table is currently listing (and comparing when you use the various column sort options) is apples and oranges. For the data to make any real sense (and to be either all apples or all oranges) the James-sourced data and the Soccerbase data should only tally the stats. from the same mix of identifiable competitions. Since neither you nor I have any control over what Soccerbase chooses to tally, this means that the only option open to us as editors is to adjust the numbers quoted from James to only include the same fixtures that Soccerbase covers. Those James sourced numbers really should not have included any of the closed season fixtures anyway because virtually no other reputable source, such as the BBC, include them in their stats. records.
2553:(I'm not worried about career date discrepancies because they can simply be suppressed in the manner that I have already done so for Lake, Ewing, Barnes and Young) listed in their 2009 article headings - which is exactly the same values Scott uses in his M.E.N. articles and I also quote in the cited reference text - and the same data that appears at the bottom of their "player details" pages. So if, for example, we take Franny Lee, according to the 2009 article entry for him his essential stats. are 340 / 144, but when you click on his name in that entry and go to his "player details" page, the same stats. derived from the totals at the bottom of that page are 330 / 147. So which is correct? One, possibly both, has to be wrong. Neither pair agree with the same data currently in our table sourced from James' book, which is 330 / 148. It is most likely the one in the article entry heading that is wrong because it is "frozen" or "static" data from 2009, while the tallies at the bottom of the players' pages are derived from the team sheet data that makes up the core
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fat-fingered what I originally copied down and hit 3 instead of 2. I've no idea where I got this info. from, and I've had the data for everyone up to AgΓΌero for quite awhile, otherwise if I'd first run across it during the
Knowledge (XXG) era I would have also noted down the source on the basis I could later use it somewhere on Knowledge (XXG). As for Gillespie the error is more complicated. 30 goals from 33 appearances yields a much better goals/game ratio and should be an entry in its own right. Meaning that, in his case, I wonder if the error lies in the season selected and if he should also have a second entry in the table for the 33 goals in 38 games, and that pairing comes from a different season? Could you please investigate? If he doesn't come close to scoring 30 or more goals in any other season then I have no idea why that data is so way off (I've double-checked that I've transcribed it O.K. from my records), but I guess we just have to correct and source the entry that's there.
2569:"player details" pages for some players (such as the three I suggested) then we really should also use it for all of the other players we cannot source from M.E.N. On a tiny sample of eight players, five (62.5%) being different from the current table entries doesn't bode very well for adopting that approach to the remaining individually unsourced players in the "List of players" table. Actually, the situation is somewhat worse than that. Two further players - Tilson and Ewing - also have disconnects between the stats. data shown in their entries in the 2009 article list and the totals at the bottom of their individual "player details" pages, but in their cases the data already in our table aligned with the former numbers (which is why I cited their respective M.E.N. articles in support of it) rather than the latter numbers (in the case of Barnes, Paul and Browell) or a three-way mismatch in the case of the other five players (Bell, Lee, Summerbee, Meredith and SWP).
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may have reworded the result a little for greater clarity and succinctness but NOT to change meanings. However, in the case of the text bullet describing the "Club career" column - which had the mouthful of a title "Manchester City career" requiring two lines of heading before I changed it - there was no defining description for that column, so I simply adopted and used the copied text bullet from the other article. I realized at the time I might have changed the original intended meaning of the date range in the way you just pointed out, but I felt that having some definition and clarity was more important than the vagueness caused by the prior lack of definition. These tables are about the appearances and goal-scoring feats of the City players, not about their contractual dealings, so I particularly liked the "irrespective of how long the player was contracted to the club" caveat you had for the comparable column in the other table.
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display appearances and goals for the league games; ditto for the domestic cup games; ditto for all other "official competitive games" (which equates to all
Community Shield, Champions League and Europa League fixtures and their natural predecessors such as the Charity Shield, European Cup, UEFA Cup, and UEFA Cup Winners' Cup); ditto for the totals of those three columns; and ditto for all the other (mostly closed season "friendly" competition) games not covered by those other columns. So I'm not suggesting that you expunge all mention of appearances and goals in competitions that are approved by the Association of Football Statisticians, only that you re-categorise them so that they don't muddy the totals data that most folk universally recognise and which is also the same totals number you get when you add together the corresponding tallies in the four
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league and cup columns don't have to be perfectly correct anyway. By that I mean that no user reading the article while we are scrubbing the numbers in this fashion is going to notice that player A is shown as appearing in 43 domestic cup games when he has really only appeared in 42 or 44, or that player B is still lacking a footnote (because you haven't got to him yet). If a user reading the table knows that sort of detail off the top of his head then he probably has no need to read the article in the first place! The table is potentially rife with such tally anomalies right now as the process we are going through with Book, Booth, Power, et al is demonstrating, so I don't consider that level of ongoing flux to be anything different than the table for the last nine years or so listing 50% more centre halves than have ever played for the club!
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Super Cup *rolls eyes*). As you said earlier, this applies mostly to the players who played in the 1970s when all those competitions were being experimented with. So to take a hypothetical example, a player such as Tommy Booth - who played three games in the closed season Anglo-Scottish Cup competition (and possibly even scored a goal in it!) - will have 8 not 11 entered into the "Other 1" column, his total appearances tally will be reduced by 3 from 491 to 488, and his entry in the "Other 2" column will be 3 (representing that he played in three more games that season than we are including in our "official total" tally for him). This way, none of the games you have included in your current totals are lost, they are merely redistributed to the "other 2" column, while the "Other 1" column tallies will be normalised to be consistent with the
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of overlooking one or other of the multiple issues here or there as you process, say, each new player row, thus introducing errors. The edit I did to change all the player nationalities to just the flag icons was pretty mind-numbing given the length of the table, but because I was focused on just that one repeated change in every row I did not make any errors, which I probably would have done if I tried to that and at the same time catch and remove all the post-flagging asterisks and maybe also change any player positions that I felt were still incorrect, and so on. The more diverse things you try and do in a single edit the more chance you have of screwing things up. It's also much easier for other editors to understand (and more importantly, accept) what you are changing if you do your edits in a systematic and iterative fashion.
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but didn't score his first goal until 1928, and likewise that he played his final games in 1940 but also didn't score any goals that year - or was due instead to simply a sloppy inconsistency. Which is why I tagged it for attention. Given all the sloppy mistakes in the position column I strongly suspected that the differences were simply due to inconsistency rather than Brooks having a goal drought in both his first and last years at the club. Your changes and comments have explained and corrected the discrepancy in the last year of his career span, but there still remains one for the beginning of his career span (1928 in the lead text versus 1927 in the table). Is this due to additional inconsistency oversight or did he really not score any goals at all in 1927? For such a prolific goal scorer this seems highly unlikely to me.
502:. And you also need to take the trouble to cite your source material fully, such as giving it a title, because in most cases deadlinks are caused simply because the referenced source gets a new path name when it is archived, thus breaking the old saved URL, but a Google search on the article's exact title will immediately locate the article again with its current URL. I had to toss away one of the deadlinks I was trying to rescue in this article simply because whoever had created it had skipped over giving it a title, so I had no idea what I was searching for. Making your own title up, rather than using the source's actual headline (misspellings, mispunctuation, warts and all) will cause the same problem once the link dies, although the made-up title might still give sufficient clues to someone regarding what to search for.
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various "player details" pages is "dynamic" it is most likely reflective of the latest corrections Ric or Gary has done to the team sheet data in the years since that 2009 article got the numbers wrong. Consequently, since the M.E.N. articles for those eight players in question align themselves with the (most likely) erroneous "static" values from the 2009 article, it seems inappropriate to use them to source corrections to the data currently in the "List of players" table, even if they are wrong. Replacing an error (if that is the case) sourced on a book with a web sourced error doesn't get us very far, and if the current data is correct, then replacing it with a web sourced error would be even more stupid. Therefore, IMO those eight M.E.N. articles are of little use to us.
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given up to 2003 (or some other year of transition) so could only truthfully print the list up to that point, while MCFC only lays claim to the awards made after 2003, and could only print a list starting at that point. Rather than either web site printing a partial list and drawing attention to the issue, they may simply prefer not to go there. However, they are clearly working together on the heavy promotion of this year's award (and did so on last year's award too) both of which have become massive web voting enterprises that last all summer long. Usually, the award was all done and dusted by late May or early June when the club had its end of season gala and handed out all the other awards such as Young Player of the Year and
Players' Player of the Year, etc.
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consistent with them accordingly, and from my perspective be done with the update, and there would not be too much you could do from your end about that (for all the reasons I've stated). My intent is not to boorishly push my own agenda or get my own way, but to ensure that the article is as accurate and truthful as it can be, and that the data in it is as defencible as possible by being web based. In not adding those other 21 M.E.N. citations I am showing you that I respect your editorial integrity and only wish to use any data conflicts as a means to focus in on where the current data may be erroneous. If the errors turn out to be in Scott's articles then we just ignore those articles; there's no intent to use all 50 anyway, only those that support James' data.
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this article in the past the screwed-up format (with the Nasri/Aguero image from one section intruding into the section below, which contains the main table, so that the intrusion caused the table columns to be squished up) has always bothered me, but I refrained from doing anything about it and left it for someone else to fix (which you have to do if you are in reading mode and on a time schedule). This time around I decided to add the missing 'clear' command needed to fix the problem, but as I accessed the edit function it occurred to me that I could also add more text to the lead so that the photo no longer finished below the bottom level of the text. So that's what I did, and now what started as a mere 10 second edit has escalated into a multi-week project!
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year for that citation), and then I had a real problem finding any sort of citable source from anyone for Yaya's award last season, despite the fact that it was similarly hyped all summer long too. In the end I had to cite a passing reference to it in the later announcement of his CAF Player of the Year Award. I thought that was curious at the time. Being the most recent, and Yaya having such a large worldwide fan base, I thought I would find no end of hits for that award, with plenty of them outside the usual M.E.N. and MCFC OWS sources. But nothing at all from those last two. Also take a look at reference "6" for Distin from Goal.com. It's only a passing reference but it is one more vote for Distin having won PotY in 2003 rather than
Berkovic.
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to stand out from the subordinate column pairs either side of it in some manner, either by putting its entries in bold font or giving it a different background colour. Normal practice would suggest a darker grey. We might give those two columns a sky blue background like I gave the current players but that will probably look too funky. ETA: The more I think about this issue, bold font is the way to go IMO. Using small font in the subsidiary columns is also something to be considered if necessary. The reason I prefer the bold font solution is that it also makes the tally number stand out clearer from its footnote superscript. Additionally, even two grey columns running down the middle of the tables will still look a bit too quirky IMO.
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we make the "Appearances" and "Goals" columns unsortable (since it is highly misleading to allow the user to sort apples against oranges as if it had any meaning. The "Refs" column should also be made unsortable as sorting arbitrarily named reference groupings makes no sense either - once again the "25-99" article handles that aspect correctly while the main list article doesn't. All the other sortable columns can remain so. Additionally, the sourcing definition text in the previous section will need to be amended to state that the table contains two sorts of player statistics: players with their stats. sourced from James for which the match inclusion criteria is the one currently stated, and players with their stats. sourced from
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annual handbook and thus doesn't have an ISBN, so it is hardly likely to show up in the
Library of Congress. Which completely undermines your whole argument because Baskcomb is the one I replaced by a web RS citation, not James, so your argument that it is a superior reference to the one I used because publications with ISBNs are theoretically available in all major national libraries is completely irrelevant since it doesn't have an ISBN. And even if it did and was in the national library in Washington D.C., do you really believe I, or any other editor in California, is going to take time off work and spend the money on a 6,000 mile round trip to the national library simply to dispute or defend one of the numbers in your table?
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original reference (long since a deadlink) said Distin. There are other references out there that say
Berkovic. I've looked through the Manchester Evening News archives for that period and unusually for the MEN there wasn't a single article about the awards. There is a solitary reference to "reigning player-of-the-season Sylvain Distin" in the October. The award used to be administered by the Official Supporters' Club but is now done by MCFC themselves. My suspicion, that I have been unable to confirm, is that 2003 may have been the transition between the two. There may have been two different awards that year, one by the OSC, one by the club. Should I get to the bottom of that, I'll make edits / footnote accordingly.
3214:(I'm assuming, otherwise Royle's goal tally is going to be one off - perhaps you could investigate? - since we know Marsh's tally is in agreement with your original total because I've already sourced him to M.E.N. as one of the original 20 players with only career date issues). Once again the discrepancy is due solely to later web James versus earlier book James as the source of both numbers. This needs to be footnoted but I'm not sure which number should appear in the table. I think we can be pretty sure the Book-Booth swap is an error so we should correct that in the table, but I have no idea who scored that goal (Booth or Leman or Royle) so we should probably align the table with the M.E.N. (ultimately
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season "pseudo" competition games such as the Audi Cup, Joan Gamper Trophy, Barclays Asia Trophy, Dublin Super Cup, World Football Challenge, etc. Likewise, neither does the BBC and most of the other sporting media write match reports for such closed season friendlies, no matter how grandiose their titles. These games are the modern day equivalent of past closed season competitions such as the Anglo-Italian Cup, Texaco Cup, Anglo-Scottish Cup, and the one I really hate, the Intertoto Cup which was universally ignored until UEFA took it over and made it a cheap backdoor entry into the UEFA Cup for teams such as Newcastle, West Ham and Aston Villa who would never have qualified otherwise.
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bogus) how am I to determine whether to accept or revert his edits as the next editor looking at the article? Given nothing else to go on I would probably choose to accept his correction of your data since it came from a more recent and ostensibly just as reliable a source. When you saw that editor's changes you would probably revert them, but if he was persistent and kept re-entering his changes and it got as far as becoming an edit war, how would the adjudicating moderator know in who's favour to arbitrate? He would probably use the same criterion as me (and presumably a lot of other interim editors that had also seen his changes and had likewise adjudged them to be copacetic too).
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home in which he also did not feature and no subs were used. In Round 4, City drew with Newcastle 1-1 at home; "Der Bomber" came on as a sub and scored the goal. In the replay at St. James' Park, City won 0-2. This time "Der Bomber" was in the starting line-up and he and Walsh scored the 2 goals. In the QFs Round, City lost 4-0 away at Crystal Palace, and that was the end of their League Cup run that season. "Der Bomber" was in the starting line-up for that game. That's 2 starts and a sub appearance plus 2 goals, not 3 starts and a sub appearance. That's your error unless I'm missing something. I will address the other 3 players as and when I can get to them.
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lot more transparent to both users and other editors of Knowledge (XXG) alike if our table contained the same four pairs of columns that make up the current totals pair that we do have. That is five column pairs where we currently have only one pair and we are still not done yet, so I think we can rationalize things a bit and combine the FA Cup and League Cup column pairs into a single domestic cup pairing, just as you suggest, without much loss of transparency, and regain a column pair. The same data breakdown of the totals can be similarly done for the James book sourced data (I'm assuming; it most certainly can be done from the
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factual dates. Otherwise it will get into problems with players such as Paul Lake who was employed by the club for nearly 30 years but was only a first team player until 1996 (I think - see how nebulous this gets!) when the team got relegated, but never played for the first team again after 1992 when he suffered his knee injury. The true contractual status of Lampard would be another source of uncertainty, not that any of the tables distinguish between loaned and directly contracted players anyway. But it's all irrelevant. All that matters is that Lampard wore City colours and played and scored goals between 2014 and 2015.
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1616:
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and, although not forbidden by Knowledge (XXG), they run contrary to the whole philosophy behind the way an online encyclopedia is meant to work - which is that true information that is entered ultimately sticks (because it can be supported by RS) while blatantly false and dubious information eventually gets removed (because it cannot be supported by adequate RS). If other editors (the potential removers or correctors of false or dubious information) cannot access the supporting cited sources to determine veracity then the whole process breaks down. BTW, I could just as easily have used this
2357:; in fact, sourcing him from Scott does away with his current goals tally footnote, and I'm considering sourcing him from M.E.N. instead, but since I've processed his stats. and already added the footnote I'm leaving him be for right now. Goater however cannot be sourced from his M.E.N. article as it only states "189 games" instead of "212 appearances" (189 being the tally of his times in a starting line-up, the other missing 23 appearances being the tally of his substitute appearances). Likewise, SWP cannot be sourced from his M.E.N. article for reasons I address below.
2875:
alternative versions. I suspect that this may be the first of many similar discrepancies that we are going to come across as I plough on with analysing the stats of the other 13 players, and I suggest that we need to apply this rule/priority to all of them when we come across them - i.e., the value that can be best supported with citable web sources is the value that is used for the tally in the table, and the alternative versions get footnoted. Just like we do for DGC reassigned goals and Community Shield match appearances that are fully documented by
1136:
without the other (pun intended) - and there will now be a requirement that the numbers in the three column pairs to the left of the "Totals" column pair actually sum to the same amount that is shown in that "Totals" column, because such a discrepancy would be immediately obvious to a Knowledge (XXG) user with even the most basic numeracy skills, plus some Knowledge (XXG) editors might also notice such a disparity! This is the point at which the table may need to be split into two - Tables A and B as I have previously referred to them.
2536:. For those players he would have to go get his own appearances and goals stats. because he wouldn't be able to use James' book or 2009 article for those, and he doesn't even bother trying in the cases of Hart, Kompany and Silva, while the stats. he uses for Barry are at least one season out of date (as of summer 2013) because they should be the same numbers back then as they are today since Barry's last game for the club was in the game against Reading in May 2013. And that is the reason I don't trust Scott over
2440:
now changed and bold font for newly added text and then, once I know you've read it, I'll remove the bold font and old strike-through figures and text as if they had never happened. IMO this is a lot less confusing for either of us than writing the same thing three times over (I've already been through this process once), and most certainly a lot less confusing to any third parties that may later read this text. Nothing is conceptually affected by this update, just the actual numbers of how I categorise things.
161:
merely an anachronistic gaffe on my part. But HB is still a midfield role while FW was clearly wrong for a HB; I merely applied the post-70s designation instead of the pre-70s one. However, it was a very time-consuming edit requiring multiple passes of the list, and GL's change came near the end of it, by which time I may have gotten a little sloppy because I simply wanted to be done with the long edit. BTW, I'm still not done. I'm just taking time to first respond to your message before continuing ...
6140:
improving articles or helping resolve problems often find other editors less than cordial towards them. It's common knowledge that Knowledge (XXG) and its editing atmosphere are not perfect but people like to see that others are willing to work on improving the situation rather than complaining about it. And when those complaints come in the form of extra-long paragraphs, you'll find that few editors will read through your entire set of comments, however lovely the writing may be.
1215:
normalisation of the "other" stats. Splitting the table in two is a relative trivial edit and it achieves the option (1) goal of separating out the two types of sourced data into their own specific tables so that which appearances and goals are included for the players in either table can be more clearly indicated in each case. Adding in the "Other 1" column pair for Table B is also a doddle since it can be populated directly from the "Other" column pair in
543:. The arguments that go on about flag-related matters were one of the reasons I chose the international recognition format in the <100 lists. That and avoiding the dangers of assigning a nationality to someone born on the island of Ireland. Given the difficulty I had in sourcing some of the international cap numbers, I'd consider leaving out the cap number column. Another example of something that seemed like an easy change but turned into days of work.
539:
Choosing a column layout that follows the Soccerbase splitting makes sense. Thankfully the majority of pre-Soccerbase players have no need for an entry in the "other" column, and its only really the 1970s where there is scope for ambiguity. The flags / nationalities thing gets very heated. There are highly vociferous factions in more or less every aspect of flag use in articles. It makes little difference to me, though it was put in that format because of
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to the left of the "Totals" column pair and one to the right of it (think of that column pair as the one we regained by merging the the two cups into a single domestic cup column pair). We would have to give them better names than just "Other 1" and "Other 2" but that's mere detail for later. The "Other 1" column pair to the left will only contain (for the James book sourced players) the tallies for the same mix of games as covered by the
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696:
inaccurate or false. We wish to support it with RS citations merely as a matter of following good Knowledge (XXG) editorial process. Meanwhile, the article is still rife with contentious incorrect statistics and fallacious player position information all of which remains unsourced or sourced to a non-web accessible (thus effectively non-verifiable) book source. Your whole take on this topic seems a little unfocused.
6026:
1302:
what is currently showing in the current table. However, we still always have the option of reducing player positions to two letter acronyms and losing flag icons, etc. should that not be the case. I already know without doing any sandboxing that a fully fleshed out Table A - with four less new columns - will comfortably fit in the "white space" to the right of the current table. Table B is the only issue IMO.
962:"G" are currently used for the footnotes. No need for mammoth editing sessions and sandboxes, etc. to change all this stuff if we take a manageable phased approach to doing it. In fact, the new columns only need to be added to Table B and part of the migration process of moving a player's modified stats. figures row from Table A would be to add the additional column information it requires in Table B.
1324:. The double line header used to separate the appearance and goal types means it is generally the length of the longest word in a title that determines the width, as titles are free to take up two lines. The data is of course nonsense, I just used Shaun Wright-Phillips as a base due to his long name and gave the rest long but feasible values. Feel free to add any further modifications you had in mind.
1228:
Migrating players between the two tables is also no different than the process that currently occurs for the current players as they reach and cross the 25 and 100 appearances thresholds. The fact that you won't be able to sort the players in Table B in amongst the players of Table A as you can now is no different than not being able to sort the <100 appearances players in amongst the : -->
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547:
take issue with how easy it is to detect deadlinks though. I must have added hundreds, maybe even thousands of links in citations over the years. Given that I don't often have that much time to edit these days, if I checked them all annually my Knowledge (XXG) editing would resemble the painting of the Forth Bridge - by the time I'd finished it would be time to start again!
3074:
from. The "patient zero", if you like. Irrespective of whether the "true" answer can be used on Knowledge (XXG) or not, I can at least make a note in my own records. To that end, I have some ideas about the origin of some of the differences, but there's no need to bother you with them here. Web cite with a footnote about sources differing is the way forward, I agree.
958:
Goater's nationality is, they only have to run their cursor over the flag and it will tell them Bermuda. If and when we reach the point of adding an international appearances column (just like you have in the "25-99" table) the "Nat." column can be deleted and the "flagicon" info. preserved and copied over to it only for those players that won any international caps.
940:
is the immediate goal of option (2). No need for sandboxes and massive workload commitments; at any juncture the two tables will be internally consistent and valid according to their respective stated match inclusion criteria. The migration progress would be no different than the current one that occurs between the "25-99 appearances" list table and the ": -->
486:
long the web link will be good for. The material on some web sites is notoriously transitory and shouldn't be used no matter how pertinently it supports your information. Citing a less pertinent RS from a more permanent source, such as a national newspaper that archives and keeps old articles web available, will always be preferable than a web site like the
206:
except for the later player entries whose information is sourced from Soccerbase instead. The implication is that the positional info. for the Soccerbase sourced players similarly comes from Soccerbase. If the position info. was obtained separately from the MCIVTA web site then it should have been clearly sourced as coming from there.
1021:
list. To be clear, is your proposed format as now but apps / goals becoming "league apps, league goals, domestic cup apps, cup goals, other apps, other goals, total apps, total goals"? With appropriate abbreviations, naturally. Given space concerns, do we need the player of the year column if that is now listed in another table?
174:
the HB positions that were entered as "CH" could fall under the "nebulous" argument, but entering "CH" for someone who was a FW or FB simply smacks of an editor having shoved some designation, any old designation, into the position field rather than take the necessary effort to at least get the position close to being right.
2939:
version are numerous. They could be "good" differences (revisions in light of new information) or "bad" differences (transcription errors), but either way the differences exist so they cannot be regarded as the same corpus. By Ric further above I was referring to Ric Turner, who runs Bluemoon, per the footer on each page.
874:. At no stage has the book been used to reference nationality. If your former user account is the one I think it is, we previously had a dialogue on sourcing for the pre-2006 players. The totals were all checked using both James and Baskombe. The types of matches included are those counted as official by the
764:
parts of them are factually very accurate and objective - or at least, if not totally neutral, not too unreasonably partisan given the tribal nature of their subject matter - while other parts are as abysmal as that DOS era page you sourced the playing positions from. In the past, I've sourced stuff from the
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Fame" tables which have no requirement to grow any wider, although they will eventually grow longer when more players are inducted, which in turn will create more white space and opportunities for adding further images in the future. And photo images can always be added to the text areas as the text grows.
3237:
with the goal that James claims in his book Tommy Booth scored in the Anglo-Scottish cup game against Sheffield United? Can you also give me the page reference so that I can include it in a footnote? I would also like a page reference for the Honved UCWC cup tie team line-up so I can include that in
3205:
once again. Because they have him listed as the right back in the Honved game his appearances are one too many and your original number (491) is the correct one (based on 25 not 26 Euro games). I think we should still source this to M.E.N. but put 491 not 492 in the table and footnote the discrepancy
2911:
records can be shown to be incomplete in some manner for ANY of the seasons for which we wish to use it as a citable source it becomes worthless. Missing some records for each of RΓΆsler's first three seasons at Maine Road makes it as useless a supporting source as its records for Franny Lee and Brian
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web site. The problem there is that that particular site hasn't been updated in over a decade. That shouldn't matter for the statistics of games that occurred over two decades ago - after all, history doesn't change - but it's my understanding that the site is a frozen "work in progress" effort. The
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has him down as playing in the first leg away to Barnet. Team: Coton, Edghill, I. Brightwell, McMahon, Hill, Vonk (Foster), Summerbee, Walsh, Rosler (Quinn), Lomas, Beagrie. After searching through some boxes I found a programme from the same season (Newcastle h, League Cup 4th round). That lists the
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because they are current players and they have played more games since Scott's 2013 closed season articles, rendering them old news, while two others (Tevez and Barry) had technically played their last games for the club when he wrote his series of articles - although Scott may not have known that at
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If you stick with those basic rules and stuff maximum possible tallies in the various columns - such as 99 goals and 999 appearances - I think you will find that we can accommodate all four new column pairs required by a fully fleshed out Table B without us having to make any further compromises with
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Things to consider when you do. I view the current "Apps" and "Goals" columns to be the precursor of the "Totals" column pair in Tables A and B. When additional column pairs are added, particularly the "Other 2" column pair to the right hand side of it, I think the "Totals" column pair should be made
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I would consider the decision to reduce or remove anything that is currently in the table that I've already reduced as a bridge to be crossed when we come to it. I quite like the "PotY" column but if it has to go to make room for a column that we consider more essential then so be it. Ditto the other
957:
I have already created more new column space by shrinking the width of the "Player" name column and by replacing all instances of flags and countries with just the flags. The vast majority of people know which flags belong to which nations. If they don't, and for instance they have no idea what Shaun
763:
BTW, I'll retract what I said about the MCIVTA web site. In researching something for my updates yesterday I had cause to spend some time reading some of its newsletters from the early 90s which I thought were pretty good. So it's not totally crapola. But that's the nature of these fanzine web sites,
737:
Interesting. 2003 as the transition year makes sense. The transition may explain why neither the club (MCFC OWS) nor the OSC has deigned to publish the complete list of award winners to date on either of their servers. Meaning, neither of them owns the complete data. OSC only lays claim to the awards
674:
list data you will see that I was systematically fixing what few years were individually sourced with deadlinks and finding and adding individual RS citations for the vast majority of those 17 unsourced years between 1995 and 2014. I was 3 players (Tiatto, Wiekens and Brown) away from completing this
546:
I understand your position re web sources. Its forever a balance between source quality and source accessibility. Soccerbase being an apt example. Occasional inexplicable omissions, practically impossible to get them to correct errors and so on, but most of the alternatives are more flawed still. I'd
461:
did not validate his numbers; it only validated the data he overwrote. But I made a note of his changes and started to investigate them. His changes were the cause of my adding the footnotes. Every number he entered that I've investigated so far (I still haven't finished yet; I just wanted to come up
448:
Here's the problem. After I did my first round of edits and tidied the article up a little plus added new material, somebody who obviously watches this article but thinks it a waste of time contributing to it, decided to update the stats. of all the current players from the matchday programme for the
377:
Contractual dealings are private and personal issues between the club and player. First team debuts and last appearances, however, are a matter of public record because they are documented by a long journalistic history of match reports from multiple sources. So the article should stick to only those
181:
The bottom line is a CH is a CH is a CH, whether he played in 1933, 1973 or 2013. The focus of the CH role may have transitioned between those years but at no point has a CH been a GK, a FB or a FW. Which is why I corrected those false designations, and your point about how "nebulous" the CH position
177:
WRT to CH being a position that has transitioned over time, I quite agree, but that still doesn't explain the misidentification of FBs or FWs as CHs. I also disagree with your assertion that the CH migration happened within the playing span of a single player such as Cowan. The full transition of the
3242:
states versus what James states in the book, and I have no idea what James states until you tell me. But if it is not in line with what I have already written then we have a big problem! Finally, to round things out, could you also send me a page reference for "Der Bomber"'s appearance in the Barnet
2938:
As you picked up on before I did, the Bluemoon stats are indeed identical to the ones in the MEN cites, at least for the players considered above, and I agree that they are the likely source. That means 1939β40 matches are included in the Bluemoon stats. So to my surprise the differences to the book
2853:
To return to the matter at hand, I have no idea what the "actual truth" is in the particular case of the Barnet tie because I wasn't at the game in question ... I wasn't even in the country when it was played. I assume you weren't at the game either. So we are both reliant on third party information
2716:
The disconnect lies in the 1994β95 League Cup appearances (total goals was always fine). That season City played a 2-legged tie against Barnet in their first round (that would be Round 2, I believe) and RΓΆsler did not play in either of those games. In the next round, City played and beat QPR 4-3 at
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For example, if Ric or Gary corrects that Honved game team sheet and replaces Booth by Book at RB, both Booth's and Book's appearances tallies in their individual "player details" pages will automatically adjust themselves too (just like column totals in a spreadsheet). So given that the data in the
2406:
Of the other (33-21=) twelve M.E.N. articles cited, eight supported the existing or adjusted table data only after footnotes were added - Swift, Brook, Herd, Doherty (these are tagged with a "4" footnote), Book, Booth (these are tagged with a "6" footnote), Power, RΓΆsler (these are tagged with a "5"
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site - and which are the most common cause of the discrepancies that arise for the stats that are currently shown in the table for those WW2 era players. ETA: I've not investigated this, but similar common discrepancy issues may also apply to the WW1 era players that the new "Additional" column pair
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totals is what I defined it to be just above, while "other" for the James book data includes all of that and then some, with it adding in the Anglo-Italian Cup and all the other such competitions listed in the preceding "Key" section. What I am suggesting we have is two pairs of "other" columns, one
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web site of what it is meant to cover - but a process of removing from their total records everything included in the other three suggests it is all UEFA club games plus any Community Shield fixtures (if you know of any other type please let me know). Clearly, the numbers in our table would become a
1055:
The table migration I'm suggesting is much more easily achieved if we just concentrate on doing one incremental change at a time. When you try and take care of a few different issues in the same edit, not only does the edit potentially become a chore, but you also significantly increase your chances
939:
sourced table "Table B". Entries in Table A can be modified to reflect the match inclusion criteria of Table B and then moved between the two tables accordingly on as leisurely a schedule as can be handled. Eventually Table A will shrink down to nothing leaving only the fully integrated Table B that
926:
is currently using and then manually adjust all the "Appearances" and "Goals" tallies for the entries sourced off of James so that they are consistent with this new inclusion criteria. This is the option I was suggesting to you in my previous posting. (3) We leave things pretty much as they are but
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energy to nit pick someone else who takes the trouble to actually find and add sources for their unsourced material rather than simply nix it as being improperly sourced (which I was well within my rights to do). I'm fully aware of the dangers inherent in using that web site. In addition to possible
373:
You claim to be doing that already in the "25-99" table. I "upgraded" the text in the stats. sourcing and key section by first copying over the bulleted text from the corresponding section in the other article and then comparing what each comparable bullet stated and choosing the best of the pair. I
345:
Well, I didn't come here to rag on you. I didn't even access the article to edit it. I initially accessed the article to look something up ... you know, actually using Knowledge (XXG) as an encyclopedia sort of thing. Some people do actually use Knowledge (XXG) that way! But every time I've accessed
160:
I don't disagree; my change to Lee Crooks' position was my mistake. I will revert it back to DF next time I take a look at that article if you don't beat me to it. Or maybe, in his case, the proper designation should be "DF/MF"? Likewise, my change of George Livingstone's position from FW to MF was
147:
If only "the odd thing fell through the crack" regarding this article then it would have taken me only a few odd edits to fix them, wouldn't it? Go count my edits ... even discounting the ones that add new info. or re-style or reformat things in a better manner, I think the remaining corrective ones
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for more information on uploading your material to Knowledge (XXG). For legal reasons, Knowledge (XXG) cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted.
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effort to now correct the record, neither you nor I are in a position to determine. Unlike the RΓΆsler situation where we were able to very quickly isolate the Barnet game as the source of the discrepancy, I have absolutely no idea which league game is causing the problem in Paul's case. If it was a
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web site. If you click through the five pages of ten players each in James' 2009 article, and go to any of the pages at the next level showing the individual "player details" for that player, you'll find internal inconsistencies for those eight players between the total appearances and goals stats.
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as a citable RS for either Tevez's or Barry's stats. All that Scott then did was reorder James' ranking of this new and improved list of fifty players, add some different photos in many cases, and perhaps write some new bio text, but much of his verbiage is derivative of James' original text too. I
2439:
Having now completed my processing of all fifty players covered by James Scott in his M.E.N. articles, I need to revisit and update this section yet again because it is still wrong, plus I wish to add some further information. I will use strike-through indications again to clearly indicate what has
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data sources they are derived from so I cannot use those M.E.N. articles even if I wanted to (which I did until I discovered that fact - see below). That leaves only 33 articles that can be cited as RS in support of individual player data from the whole batch of fifty, and all of those 33 citations
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stats I can probably help too - would be under no pressure to complete a rather tedious and complicated normalisation process within some arbitrarily short timeframe. Should either of us run out of time, energy or motivation to actually complete the whole migration process, at whatever point we run
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can be immediately migrated from the initial Table A to the initial Table B (but we would have to remember their relative position in the table which is determined by their debut dates for the first team, a piece of information that we don't actually keep anywhere). The "Other 2" column entries for
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instead. I have already done that for a few players but I can't remember exactly which ones now - but it's documented in my edit summaries if you care to search for it. Kinkladze is one I remember, and to be honest I was quite surprised to find a player from his era having his City stats complete;
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sourced numbers that I've entered then you know it will also need an explanatory footnote added. So that method of dividing the work will be quite productive, I think. But you could take as long to do that verification and footnoting process as you want, because at this point the numbers in the new
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table back in the "25-99" article where I had originally pinched your similar much smaller table from in the first place. At no point in the changes I've made to the article between my first edit and now have I left it in a "under construction" state. So don't focus too intently on exactly how many
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a work in progress to look at. Well, Knowledge (XXG) is by definition a work in progress, but you know what I mean. But who knows how long I'd take for that. I'm not editing much now, in the close season, never mind when I spending most of my weekends watching the names at the bottom of the current
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Other areas of gaining width for new columns when required is to reduce the "Position" column data to just the GK, DF, MF, and FW acronyms (as you already have done in the "25-99" table), and to change the reference grouping tags "PotY" and "stat" to simply "P" and "S" in the same manner as "A" and
953:
That's an awful lot of new columns needed and they certainly can't be introduced while you keep trying to shove photo images down the side of a table that needs to grow laterally! Which is why I've moved them. There is plenty of "white space" available for photo images down the side of the "Hall of
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captures data. This table will continue to grow as current players make more than one hundred appearances and migrate over from the "25-99" article. The other table will remain frozen in size and contain only the oldest players that are sourced on James. (2) We modify the inclusion criteria for the
841:
100 appearances and were added to the list they had to be sourced from Soccerbase. But Soccerbase only tracks domestic league and cup games, Community Shield games, UEFA club competition games, and UEFA and FIFA national team games (both competitive and friendly). It doesn't track any of the closed
807:
One minor aside, I think MCIVTA was the very first MCFC specific web content. Not so much use as a Knowledge (XXG) source, but an interesting "social history" document for its 1990s heyday. The editions of its newsletter from just after Wembley 99 are still in my email archives. I used to regularly
749:
web site and had all the awards but three since 1995 individually sourced. Look at the "Main table references" section at the end. Tevez received his award on 7 May 2010, Kompany received his award around the 25 May 2011, AgΓΌero on 3 May 2012, Zabaleta on 4 June 2013 (looks like I entered the wrong
683:
as my supporting RS (as it is even more up to date than the "Happy to be Blue!" one) but a quick glance at the wording in it and the flag icons used (including the old Georgian flag for Kinkladze) clearly indicates that this site has copied its data from the article, so to cite it as the supporting
678:
It may be a bit of a dubious RS but it is still decidedly superior to a cited book which is inaccessible to other editors for the purposes of entered data veracity verification plus 17 years of either unsourced data or data sourced with deadlinks! IMO book citations are little better than deadlinks
538:
With regard to formatting and widths, there are so many different screen sizes and resolutions in use these days that I have no idea what would be recommended any more, or what is or isn't preserved in the layout for mobile devices. It was a lot simpler when all you had to worry about was 1024x768.
485:
As for cited web links becoming deadlinks, only the laziest editors allow that to happen. If you take any pride in your article then you will check them regularly - say once a year - and replace any that have gone dead. Also what you choose for a reference source has a big determining factor on how
477:
With a pretty rare (i.e., almost inaccessible) book source such as James or Baskcomb what you are effectively saying to other editors is, "This data is true, trust me." In your dreams, exactly how many copies of their books do you believe exist outside of Manchester or the U.K.? Baskcomb is just an
444:
I have no problems with books. I have over 5,000 of them on my bookshelves and I normally have my head buried in one for 2 or more hours of every day. I much prefer and respect books to most of the crap I have to sift through on the web. And if I didn't like or trust books I wouldn't have asked you
369:
s player summaries are listed season-wise, meaning it lists 1927 as the start as his debut was in the 1927β28 season. Is it your preference to change them to exact date where this differs? It can still be sourced by the book that way, but will need to be to two separate locations each time. Once to
144:
non-specific references was viewed as enough" - except perhaps by some of the more "tribal football" editors who hoped they could rationalise (as much to themselves as well as to others) their recently inserted POV data which couldn't be justified by a more acceptable defence! But they don't count.
5944:
This is notification that I'm now editing under the moniker "Me? I'm not really here" rather than as the static IP address I was previously using. You may assume that any edits or comments signed "not really here" or "66.16.144.18" are by one and the same person. The "Talk page" for "66.16.144.18"
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in your life - and when I asked you for goal scoring references you simply made up page numbers to a book you don't own! I'm not saying that you did. I wouldn't be wasting my time trying to work with you if I even suspected that was the case. But on Knowledge (XXG) citable sources trump "trust me"
2301:
I have been correcting these dates according to the new definition of the column that I added as I've been adding in the supporting RS citations from M.E.N. because, once corrected, the M.E,N. articles also supported the dates as well as the total appearances and goals tallies. In some cases, your
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sourced players and will be blank for all of them; it only applies to the James book sourced players, and it will only have an entry for any one of them if that particular player appeared in a competition other than a UEFA club game or the Community / Charity Shield competition (a.k.a. the English
845:
According to the sourcing information currently in the article, all the stats. in the main table include such games, because the only games that are explicitly identified as being excluded are war time related fixtures - which probably have more merit for being considered real fixtures than Texaco
714:
As it happens I have done some research on the subject of Player of the Year. I was unable to satisfactorily resolve one particular anomaly, and for that reason I left it alone pending further research. For the Player of the Year in 2003, different sources list different players for that year. The
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awards will be left sourced to a deadlink. However, what data is to be found on that site for the few years up to 2012 is actually pretty accurate and well presented, which is more than I can say for the poorly presented decade-or-more old crapola to be found on the MCIVTA site. So with one link I
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Furthermore, how is your saying "trust me" regarding your table data any different from the guy with the matchday programme who just wants to see the correct data in the article? I could have simply gone ahead and stuck those other 21 M.E.N. article citations in and changed the existing data to be
298:
Yes, but there were discrepancies at both ends of the date range. The lead text originally stated "scored between 1928 and 1939" while the table stated his club career span as 1927β1940. I wasn't sure if this difference was telling me something - i.e., that he made appearances for the club in 1927
205:
The way the article was sourced - and still is (because I haven't changed that area of the sourcing) - the designated player positions are implicitly sourced to James by default just like the appearances and goals data are. The reader is led to believe that the whole of the table comes from James
173:
I don't believe much, if any, of the "centre half" information I've changed was due to CH being a "nebulous" designation, or even to it being later vandalism that nobody noticed. The changes I made were mostly due to the original data entered being poorly researched or misinformed. Perhaps some of
6173:
has made that section one of the most productive and constructive over the last few weeks (maybe ever, but who's got the time to go verify that?). It's certainly one of the longest making it very commendable using any of the usual Knowledge (XXG) metrics. However, I'm quite sure someone else will
2778:
is a good enough source to support Gillespie then it's a good enough source to support RΓΆsler. What you are offering as an alternative version is just a bunch of "trust me" sources - it's in a book I once read; it's in some archived news articles that only I have access to; and it's in a matchday
1292:
Therefore, if a player's appearance or goal scoring record in a league, cup or UEFA club game needs footnoting it only gets footnoted in the appropriate "Totals" column, NOT in the subordinate column where perhaps the footnote might be considered to be more pertinent. If we restrict footnoting in
1192:
The real effort in this phase will all fall on the Table A players and, as they would all be sourced from James, only you could do the necessary adjustments to the numbers so that the two "Other" columns are properly populated. Except the Table A entries won't have any "Other" columns; those were
1059:
Of course, you already know that, which is why you are suggesting first doing these changes in a sandbox since they will require the addition of multiple new columns and the changing of all the existing numbers. That's sounds like a hell of a lot to do in a single edit, or even a few back-to-back
941:
100 appearances" table - although the goal would be to migrate Table A into Table B at a faster rate than 2-3 players per year! If option (1) is embarked upon with the agreed goal, once the two separate tables are created, of achieving a single integrated Table B over a more manageable time frame
905:
who no longer conform to the inclusion criteria (i.e., which games are included and which are excluded) currently stated in the section prior to the list table, and each season going forward that number is only going to increase in quantity (at the rate of about three players per season) and as a
900:
Regarding your "the types of matches included are those counted as official by the Association of Football Statisticians" statement, that may well be. I wasn't questioning your original decision of what to include in the totals; I'm quite sure back in 2006 when the table was first created and was
695:
sourcing situation is that, for the most part, it is completely uncontentious information. You, I, or another dozen or so editors will most likely all agree that it is correct, and in that context, it really does not need to be supported by a RS because no one is threatening to remove it as being
3073:
Verifiability not truth is indeed the mantra (I could offer to email photos of print sources as proof, but to do so would be to spectacularly miss the point). I just like to get to the bottom of these things when they occur, to try to understand why they happened, where an error first propagated
2969:
records database should be treated as a separate corpus of data to James' book. Because it embodies, as you say, both "good" and "bad" differences, and neither of us is necessarily going to know which (of any discrepancies that may arise between James' book reported data and the same data as now
2874:
So let's not waste any more time over this one. I suggest we go with the number I can cite two web sources to support (i.e., we leave things as they are now) and that you/we add an "A" footnote to Uwe's appearances tally regarding the discrepancy for the Barnet game, so that the reader sees both
2564:
The eight players affected are Bell, Lee, Summerbee (but of course!), Meredith, Browell, Horace Barnes, Roy Paul and SWP. Whether we should cite the individual "player details" pages for these players is an issue we need to discuss. In the case of three of them - Barnes, Paul and Browell - these
1210:
web site so I assumed that only you could do the heavy lifting for this portion of the table migration. The fact that I could also participate in this phase only just occurred to me as I wrote this. There are approximately 200 players in the main table list by my calculations, and Table B would
945:
There would also be no need to lose any of the current data. As you suggest a good way to resolving the differences and anomalies between the two sources of stats. data would be to break out the individual competitions into new columns. I would envisage the final version of Table B to be able to
1288:
More importantly, the current width of these two columns cannot be shrunk any further than they currently are because of the necessity to add the "A" and "G" footnotes to them. Without the footnotes they could indeed be made a little thinner by reducing the length of their already short heading
1227:
Having two separate tables with slightly different structures in the "List of players" section is no more arbitrary nor any different than the past decisions made to split the complete list of players into three separate articles, with the tables in each article structured slightly differently.
1052:
suggested space-savers I mentioned above - I prefer "stat" to "S" and "centre half" to "DF" but not if either of those prevents a more essential column being added if and when the time comes to do so. For right now we have plenty of room to add new columns so let's defer such decisions to later.
896:
I saw what had been done in the "25-99" article and my immediate reaction was, "Why are these two very similar topic articles so different?" I just assumed they had been created by different editors. Nevertheless, the inconsistency between two list articles that should be identically structured
655:
Coming from someone who just justified using the MCIVTA site as a valid citable source for the various player positions that comment is really very rich! It never ceases to amaze me that editors that are too damn lazy to properly source their own data input always immediately find the time and
473:
as a third party gatherer of such data is only a secondary source - what if that editor had instead made some changes to the numbers (let's assume not correct ones) and sourced his changes to a more recently published book about City than James' tome. As long as his ISBN checked out (and wasn't
275:
Eric Brook / Tommy Johnson - Brook scored a goal in the abandoned 1939β40 season. Officially, these matches were expunged from the records but some sources still include them. This is a common discrepancy. As for 1939 or 1940 playing date, his last game was in the 1939β40 season, but it came in
143:
It doesn't "suffer a bit" by "being lightly sourced"; the article always was - and still is - inadequately sourced by Knowledge (XXG) standards. Hopefully we can correct that rather than having to delete the article instead. Nor was there ever a time on Knowledge (XXG) when "a couple of general
2829:
URL, so I'll have to navigate you there. From the "Home" page select "Players". On the next page select "Appearance Statistics". On the next page select "Most appearances". Finally, on the last page select "Overall". Now compare the top ten players in his top 20 (which not only contains Swift,
2410:
The other 18 articles each differed slightly regarding the statistics for the player and I would like to resolve those with you. The error could lie with Scott's article (like the dates for Lake, Ewing and Barnes) but could also mean you are totaling up goals and/or appearances that most other
1135:
However, the situation starts to get trickier when we get to the point of adding in the "other" columns. These account for the areas where all the discrepancies between the two sets of source data lie. Both of the "other" column pairs will have to be added at the same time - you can't have one
669:
award data up to 2012, rather than have the data up to 1995 sourced from a book no other editor has access to, with the remaining 17 years of award data sporadically sourced with mostly deadlinks. If you look at my edits immediately prior to my making "Happy to be Blue!" the main source of the
252:
maintain such stats. The article's sourcing information was currently missing any statement regarding how abandoned matches were handled, so I went ahead and added a statement to the statistics sourcing information to the effect that any goals and appearances in abandoned matches are excluded.
1184:
record for those players and can be populated almost as quickly because there will only be about 30 odd rows in Table B at this point. So the initial Table B can very quickly become the final version Table B that we seek, with all five column pairs populated and properly totaled and every row
934:
My own personal view is that option (2) is the preferable one but it puts an onus on you for a large portion of the conversion work. The advantage of option (1) is that it can be used as an interim step to achieving option (2) at a leisurely and undaunting pace and does away with any need for
526:
I was aware that Ric from Bluemoon had been working with Gary on getting his stats online but hadn't realised it was now complete. I shall have to look at some test cases to establish exactly what is and isn't included. If they're consistent, links to that could replace a lot of references to
251:
Other than an overlooked sub. appearance that is most likely it. Abandoned matches are pretty rare so I'm unsure how they are normally handled. But I would be very surprised if they and their goals were included in total appearances and goals scored tallies by any of the reliable sources that
6139:
If you are looking to criticize Knowledge (XXG), its structure and policies, there are several other websites that focus on this where you might find more receptive listeners to your criticism. New accounts (I realize you are not a new user) that focus more on critiquing Knowledge (XXG) than
2343:
because I trust it more than Scott's own attention to details (he's OK as a secondary source for what is ultimately James' data, but there is a big difference between copying other people's stuff and being an expert in gathering the original data, although Barry and Tevez hardly require much
2679:
Booth as your edit summary except 1 "other" goal in Anglo-Scottish Cup vs Sheffield Utd. 25 Euro apps. All 9 games in the 1969β70 CWC. 5 in 1970β71 CWC (Linfield h, all 3 vs Gornik, Chelsea a), 11 out of 14 UEFA games between 1972 and 1977 (games missed Juventus h, and both legs vs Twente)
607:
Thanks for that. Regarding Browell, just go ahead and change the 42 to 43, recalculate the goals/game ratio, and source it. Whoever compiled that information either was unaware of the FA Cup or purposely ignored it because it makes his goals/game stat. slightly better. Or I could have just
1214:
I don't view the decision to embark on the foregoing as an all-or-nothing decision. Each one of the iterative changes I described above improves the article anyway. Adding the league and cup columns to the current table is an improvement whether or not we decide to push on and tackle the
401:
and can be rescued. Often they have been lost forever. Books, on the other hand, stick around for centuries. Libraries may not be as convenient as the web but they're a whole lot less ephemeral. Even in the most extreme cases with a tiny print run, any title with an ISBN will be at the
1126:
web site for all the James sourced players. You could then go through those same players and adjust it, if necessary, to the book values should any numbers differ. Spotting those discrepancies will also immediately identify which numbers need footnotes - if you have to adjust one the
6103:. As for the correct designation of Falkirk that is not an issue. If he wishes to believe that Falkirk were ever a junior team that's his prerogative but he didn't try and insert that falsity back into the article once I reverted it, so no longer an issue if it ever was one. β
2862:(thank you, for that!). And you? You just have a bunch of "trust me" sources and a highly unreliable web source. For all I (and any other editors) know, you don't really own a matchday programme (or if you do, it doesn't say what you claim it does); you didn't really access
6161:, for posting your cool-headed advice. If everybody on Knowledge (XXG) behaved like you it wouldn't have anywhere near so many problems (oops, so sorry, I temporarily forgot there that Knowledge (XXG) doesn't have any problems and that it never rains in Camelot). There is
6074:
Err, okay. usually we'd slug that template against someone who copied a whole wad of text (i.e. a paragraph), but technically GiantSnowman is right WRT copyvio per se. The other issue was the "junior" vs "non-league" adjective regarding Falkirk...so let's take that there.
2942:
I sympathise with your Soccerbase travails, I've been there myself. The column they put playoff appearances in might as well be a lottery, and that's if they are included at all. What I'd give for football to have a statistics site that is as reliable as Cricinfo is for
2565:
pages actually support the data currently in the table, but in the other five cases they simply muddy the water and present a third data view (to the M.E.N. articles and what's already in the table sourced from James' book). Plus we can't pick and choose. If we use the
445:
to source my "Prolific goalscorers" table from one, now would I? But Knowledge (XXG) isn't built to handle books; or perhaps more accurately, because it has grown so popular since its introduction, book cited references can't hold their own versus web cited references.
1072:
records we source from have four pairs of column totals (apps and goals) for each of league games (any division), FA Cup games, League Cup games and "Other games". I don't believe they define what "other" covers - at least I've not discovered any definition on the
1223:
sourced players. In fact, it doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be, added until we are at the point of migrating the first "1970s era" player who has some data to go in it. Again, terminating the process before that juncture still leaves the article in an improved
6174:
mooch all the credit; it's the Knowledge (XXG) way. I might have said more here, such as congratulations on surviving your RfA ordeal, but this reply is already six times the length of a Tweet, and I probably lost your attention somewhere back around Camelot. β
138:
The "main" list suffers a bit from having started out as a lightly sourced list back when a couple of general non-specific references was viewed as enough. Its easier for the odd thing to fall through the cracks when the sourcing is being done retroactively.
2641:
players by counting the appearances and goals from scratch (thus these edits require a lot more data crunching than just checking when the player made his first team debut and played his last game, which is mostly all the first 20 entry updates required).
156:, for example. He certainly did play midfield at times, yet his longest run in the team was at right back, including the 1999 playoff final. I generally prefer having fewer categories to reduce the overlap, but its largely a matter of personal preference.
1196:
The rate at which these two tables expanded and shrank would be solely dependent on how quickly you were able to convert the current James numbers to the "Other 1" / "Other 2" column format requirements. I could probably help in this process using the
1065:
columns the final table will have, but rather on the systematic improvement process that I outline below in order to get us there. As we get nearer to achieving the final goal, we may have to adjust that goal based on lessons learned along the way.
984:
Do you agree with me that option (1) is the best route to go - that is, initially splitting the table into two tables with the goal of consolidating them again by modifying then migrating the entries in the James sourced table (Table A) into the
573:
BTW, are you able to source from James my individual line entries in the "Most prolific goalscorers" section that I added? Ideally, I would like to source that table from the web, but at this point any reliable sourcing would help. Thanks.
1143:, while Sibierski is still sourced from James. So if I was splitting the table tomorrow that's where the split would be; Sibierski and all the players above him would be in Table A (primarily sourced off of James but also containing some
169:, for example. He would have started his City career in the 2-3-5 centre half position i.e. the middle half back, but he would have ended it as a W-M centre half - from the middle of the park to the back without ever changing position.
148:
still total way more than what one could normally describe as, "just the odd thing or two that has slipped through the cracks"! I can see you are clearly a gentleman with a preference for euphemism rather than stating things plainly.
1298:
may also help to more elegantly document. The column has to be there to handle the common "1970s era" discrepancies so we might as well make use of it anywhere we can to handle other commonly recurring disconnects in the numbers too.
768:
history pages - because they claim affiliation with Gary James - but I wouldn't source anything from its forum, which is the main reason for the web site's continued existence. The same applies to tabloid news sources such as the
342:. Standards have rightly risen since then. There's no way I'd have used the MCIVTA source in more modern times. We've both spent plenty of time on the list, and we both want it to be accurate. I'm sure we can agree on that much.
1211:
start off with 31 players if we did the split tomorrow. The other 170 or so players would all have to be touched and processed (i.e., migrated). That should give you a feel for the scope of the undertaking if you are up for it.
1111:"other" column tallies, and likewise, the tallies in the "Totals" column pair will be similarly normalised to account for exactly the same mix of competitions regardless of whether the player's stats are sourced from James or
869:
in the table and what is not? In short, the appearance / goal figures are sourced to it. Nationalities and positions are not. Birthplaces are listed in the book, but of course that does not equate to nationality in cases like
2998:
never readjusted to a later DGC assignment of a goal to or from another player, or a player's appearances tally is off because he has participated in one or more of the Community Shield finals (and all of the players with :
901:
filled with data that was 100% sourced on James, your choice of what to include and what not to include was the best possible one. But that was then and this is now. There are now over 30 players in the table sourced from
2348:- Dunne, SWP and Goater - with the last having been sourced to there by me, prior to my finding the M.E.N. articles, as part of my earliest efforts to source more of the data from the web rather than an inaccessible book.
2906:
records for his final two seasons at City are completely correct IMO. I have no idea whether any of the stats for the clubs he played for after he left City are correct, but I have no intention of finding out. Once the
469:- although that's a contentious claim since the true source of all the stats. is the club itself who also publish the programmes, so coming directly from the club the programmes are a primary source of the data, while
849:
However, since I (like 99.99% of other Knowledge (XXG) editors) don't own a copy of James, only you can make those adjustments to bring the James sourced stats. into alignment with the Soccerbase sourced numbers.
3031:
has teamsheets showing players subbing in for players that were not even in the starting eleven, and you don't have to be an avid City fan - or even a casual follower of football - to identify such basic logical
2787:
book), then ten minutes later claim his stats are a bunch of Crapola because you now disagree with him (because, as I understand it from what you wrote above, Ric is working with James to source his stats on the
1085:
Breaking out the league and domestic cup data into two pairs of new columns merely adds transparency to the numbers. The disconnect between the two sets of data comes in the "other" column, where "other" for the
1205:
and the book differed you would probably catch and adjust something that needed correcting. When I first suggested this process to you a few days ago I didn't know about the pertinent statistics records on the
3105:
Paul made 444 appearances due to only 6 sub appearance in the league, not 7. Once again we have a discrepancy that traces back only to James himself. Whether Gary or Ric (if he is the person coordinating the
2541:
have compared all three pieces of data (career dates, appearances and goals) for the 43 players in common between the two lists and in all cases Scott used 100% James' data from his 2009 article as hosted on
1229:
100 players in the current article divide. Except the Table A / Table B divide is only intended to be an interim divide with Table A eventually shrinking away to nothing leaving only a fully normalised Table
1261:
I'm going to knock up a few example formats just to see what they look like in terms of width etc. Haven't got time to do all the experimenting now, but will endeavour to do so over the next couple of days.
2676:
Book as your edit summary except Europe 17. All 9 games in the 1969β70 CWC. 7 out of 9 in 1970β71 CWC (he missed the 2nd leg and neutral ground replay against Gornik) 1 app in 1972β73 UEFA away to Valencia.
989:
sourced table (Table B) in a more leisurely and less work intensive manner versus trying to immediately fix and make consistent everything in the current table - option (2). Or did you prefer option (3)?
688:. I don't believe we have that problem with the web page I used. But if you are that concerned why don't you do some Googling to see if you can't locate an alternative single web page source for the data.
2603:
so that number is now 13 (= 50 - 12 - 20 - 5). The table entries for first 20 players I sourced to M.E.N. differed only in regard to career date spans, if they differed at all (6 didn't), but the final
325:
The article was first created (by me) in 2006. No doubt there are errors in it that are my fault. I was a lot less experienced. Knowledge (XXG) was a lot more relaxed about referencing; for example the
6165:
and there is negative criticism. The fact that most of the time Knowledge (XXG) defensively classes any kind of criticism as being negative and refuses to acknowledge it with its standard knee-jerk,
2783:
is a valid accurate source over here (for Gillespie) but it is a badly unreliable source over there (for RΓΆsler). You also can't champion the accuracy and validity of James' stats one moment (re his
878:. We could possibly separate out the competitions. Due to the scale of changes required this would probably need to be done in a sandbox, so that it wouldn't all have to be done in a single sitting.
840:
There is currently a problem concerning the main table. The sourcing info. was presumably first written to address the original data sourced from James circa 2006. As players post 2006 achieved : -->
3123:
records at the weekend and he only played 4 and a bit seasons for the club. Paul's career is almost three times as long as RΓΆsler's and I don't have 6-7 hours to spare similarly going through his
2779:
programme I own in my attic. Unfortunately, editors in Malaysia, Brazil, Australia, Canada and the U.S.A. don't have access to any of those. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth and say
2324:
Let me now discuss those M.E.N. cited RS. All 50 players in James Scott's "top 50" are in the table - I would have had a big issue with his whole selection process if any had not have been! - but
2407:
footnote) - and four (Barnes, Young, Oakes and Quinn) will require processing your end in the same manner as Book, Booth, Power and RΓΆsler did, so I've added new section headings for them below.
2403:
The three players whose career span dates I believe were/are still correct, but Scott's article has the dates wrong, are Paul Lake (for the reasons mentioned above), Dave Ewing and Peter Barnes.
411:
6169:
platitude will, of course, allow it to continue to keep its collective head buried in the sand. As for others willing to work on improving the situation, I just did. My opening few posts on
6272:
6251:
6230:
6209:
1180:
the Table B players are a doddle as they are all, by definition, blank. The "Other 1" column entries for the Table B players comes straight out of the "Other" column in the corresponding
781:- some articles in isolation can be O.K., but the body of articles taken as a whole are abysmally jaundiced and unreliable, so I just avoid them as a possible source of useful citations.
3182:
site as the source for his series of 50 articles. Suggest we still keep, rather than lose, the web citation but footnote this one too, and that the table number be 315 rather than 314.
2890:
stats for "Der Bomber", the reason why he was the latest player whose stats I sourced yesterday is because I must have wasted a couple of hours on Saturday trying to make sense of the
38:
2700:
OK, I assume we are both in agreement over my career dates changes and M.E.N. sourcing of the first 20 players plus the footnoted Swift, and we can now just focus on the remaining
2912:
Kidd are in supporting any of the table's stats for those two players (go check them out). Just be glad that RΓΆsler's records for the whole of the 1994β95 season are omitted by
3243:
game and I'll add that to his footnote in the same manner as I included your page reference for the Coventry City match (which I was also at) in Paul Power's footnote. Thanks.
1233:
The interim period is of an unspecified duration so that editors - initially just you (since you appear to be the only editor with James' book), but now that we know about the
3206:
from the cited source. Regarding his goals tally which I decreased by one, as you correctly identified, this is the goal attributed to "Other" by James in his book, but which
2894:
stats for him with the hope that he might be a 13th player that could be sourced from there instead of James. But his stats are very incomplete. There is no record at all in
6118:
2493:
before it had even been published there. The apology re the selection of the fifty players not including any of the more recent ones strongly suggests it was only added to
1151:). However, we don't have to split the table tomorrow, and by the time we do I or you will have had plenty of time to investigate, for example, Sibierski's stats record in
1160:
the comparable records for RΓΆsler, who played alongside him for the three seasons 1995-98, are a mess in comparison. It was mostly because Kinkladze could be sourced from
233:
says 565 (562+3). Don't much fancy a manual count, but it may prove necessary. One possible source for discrepancy might be the abandoned match against Newcastle in 1969?
589:
Goalscorer refs done, except two. I have 43 apps for Browell (42 League, 1 FA Cup), and 33 apps 30 goals for Gillespie (League 32 apps 30 goals, FA Cup 1 app 0 goals).
6189:
3110:
statistics effort) has made an error in the web site data entry, or whether there was a publishing error in James' 2006 book and he has taken advantage of this latest
2811:
if you wish this article to preserve most of the numbers currently sourced from James. We are not talking a few +1 or -1 tweaks to the stats as we are doing with the
1175:
while the others cannot, although it might be possible to source more than are done so currently. Anyway, all the players from the grey area that can be sourced from
2497:
near the end of that four year window (2009-2013); James or Turner would not have felt any need for such a caveat if it had been added there soon after appearing in
2871:
sources, hearsay, gossip, fantasy and, yes, even the truth! What really matters is citable "truthiness" NOT uncitable "truth". Surely you must know that by now.Β :)
2838:
and the top ten appearances according to our article when the "Appearances" column is sorted. So tell me, would you prefer that we reconcile the table data to the
5934:
5494:
3268:
The book has Booth playing 19 September against Stoke then absent until the derby on 12 December. Nothing to contradict the footnote. Page ref added for Rosler.
101:
97:
73:
5960:
2902:; and while his PL stats for season 1995β96 are correct, his domestic cup records are incomplete throwing the tallies completely off for that season too. The
6038:
917:
sourced entries off into a separate but identically structured table that has new inclusion criteria written for it that matches the actual games for which
675:
process when my Google search for Tiatto returned the page I'm now using. I was completely unaware of the "Happy to be Blue!" web site until I got that hit.
6042:
2508:
All that Scott did to create his article was replace seven players on James' original 2009 list (Cowan, Crossan, White, Owen, Law, Woosnam, Deyna) with
453:. In fact, he said he was correcting them. But he didn't change the sourcing; he just changed the numbers that were being reported as being sourced to
397:
I don't think we'll ever agree with regards to books / online sources. Web sources regularly turn to dead links. Sometimes they've been archived by the
3261:
The scorers are listed as Booth, Marsh, Leman. So its Royle, and that checks out when Royle is cross-referenced. 31 goals in the book, 32 on Bluemoon,
6054:, such as sentences or imagesβyou must write using your own words. Knowledge (XXG) takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators
2823:"Most appearances" page ... I can't give you the URL so that you can go straight there yourself because all pages on that legacy site have the same
1171:, while the one after them, Paul Dickov, can be and is. So there is a grey area between Symons and Sibierski where some players can be sourced from
1147:
sourced players intermittently spread out near the bottom of it) while James and all the players below him would be in Table B (100% sourced off of
79:
2916:
because otherwise I would have three citable web sources for the Barnet game compared to your zilch, instead of just the two I currently have!Β :)
2666:
Rosler as your edit summary except League Cup (10 starts 1 sub 5 goals) 3+1 (2) in 1994β95, 3 (2) in 1995β96, 2 (1) in 1996β97, 2 (0) in 1997β98.
1016:
As mentioned before, if I was doing everything solo, I'd make the changes in a user subpage and port them over when done β I'm wary of giving the
3007:
data as a directly cited source of any of the stats. numbers in the article in the same manner that I am wary of citing comparable data from the
2397:
18 I had to adjust due to the player's debut and/or final appearances for the club, or, as in the case of Dennis Tueart, it was just plain wrong
5945:
automatically redirects here while the "User page" for that address didn't have anything on it - because, after all, I wasn't really here!Β :) β
5433:β Career dates span updated; Appearances and/or Goals tallies updated; M.E.N. RS citation added (but does not support dates)Β ; footnote(s) added
3201:
Because of the Book-Booth swap error identified above we now immediately know the source of the discrepancy in Booth's appearances stats. It's
2023:
875:
660:
issues, my biggest concern is that the site is not going to be around for too much longer, in which case all but the latest two years of the
2994:
is at fault it is always for one of the two reasons I have already documented in the article - either a player's goals tally is off because
1201:
statistics base as a surrogate for actually owning the book. We would probably be checking each other's edits anyway, so in the cases where
5990:
2379:(see entries in the "Data resolution status table" below tagged with a "1", "2" or "3" explanatory footnote in the sortable "Notes" column)
3314:
tba - BTW, note that the "443" total apps number in the article edit summary I wrote for his update is a typo and should really be "243".
2819:
sources, we are talking instead of much more radical disconnects. Here's just a very simple example of what I'm talking about. Go to the
2548:
Which now brings me to the seven players plus SWP (referenced above) whose three pieces of stats. data is internally inconsistent on the
1118:
I think we could add in the league and domestic cup column pairs quite quickly to the current table. In fact, now that I know about the
3166:
Because of the info. you gave me I was able to very quickly isolate the cause of the discrepancy in Book's stats. Once again using the
1219:. Adding in the "Other 2" column pair to Table B is even more of a doddle as the entries in it are by definition blank for the current
1155:
to see if it matches his current numbers in the table (sourced from James) and if they are the same then Sibierski can be sourced from
3244:
3219:
3183:
3128:
3048:
2917:
2718:
2643:
2570:
2441:
2413:
2303:
1303:
1239:
991:
963:
851:
782:
697:
609:
575:
503:
300:
253:
207:
2513:
540:
6170:
6132:
24:
3170:
records, they too have him only playing 16 Euro games, not 17. Based on your info. the cause of the discrepancy appears to be the
5324:
3265:
being the only column with a difference. Page 538 for Royle totals, p. 515 for the Sheffield United goal being credited to Booth.
2610:
require possible changes to the appearances and/or goals tallies (plus possibly career dates too). The five resolved so far are:
2533:
2529:
2525:
2521:
2517:
2509:
2489:
prior to June 2013 when Scott started using it, and of course after 2009, since it could not have been copied from an article in
5363:
3027:
in which, despite its two really annoying quirks mentioned above, I have still yet to find any fundamental errors. In contrast,
2830:
Meredith and Bray instead of Summerbee, Power and Donachie, but also note the calendar years and appearances tallies!) with the
1139:
If you work your way up from Clichy at the bottom of the current list as far as David James, all those players are sourced from
498:
link was always my major concern regarding it, rather than whether the site as a whole was objective and neutral enough to meet
68:
535:, but there's no convenient season summary cite. His next best total was 21 in 1903β04, so there's no other candidate season.
6086:
20:
1164:
that I spent so much time messing with RΓΆsler's records at the weekend in the hope that he could also be sourced from there.
59:
6099:
Actually Cas, that template is not even pertinent in this instance as I've explained to you in much greater detail on your
5409:β No change to data; M.E.N. RS citation added (but does not support career dates span as that aspect incorrect in cited RS)
3000:
100 appearances that have such an error caused by having participated in one of those three games have now been footnoted).
942:
than the more immediate and work intensive time frame of option (2) then, of course, my own preference would be option (1).
2481:
web site. As the disclaimer on that page clearly states, this web site content is derived from an article James wrote for
684:
RS for the article would be to set up a circular reference loop which I'm pretty certain, without even checking, violates
465:
Ignoring the fact that he didn't do the update properly and a matchday programme is probably a less reliable source than
6057:
3127:
records. If you are willing to do so and are able to isolate the game causing the discrepancy then we can footnote it.
2592:
I've updated the above couple of paragraphs because the numbers that I originally included in them were mostly wrong.
2089:
1607:
92:
5427:β Career dates span updated; Appearances and/or Goals tallies updated; M.E.N. RS citation added; footnote(s) added
2898:
for season 1994β95; he played only twelve PL games in the previous season but just two of those games show up in
1017:
110:
449:
club's last game of the season, despite the fact that someone - you, I believe - had already updated them from
3043:). I assume you are finding the same level of disconnects between the data in James' book and the comparable
531:. Related to that, Gillespie's tally of 30 goals in 33 in 1902β03 in the book matches up with its counterpart
225:
Re Oakes league appearances. Soccerbase says 565. Gary James' books say 564 (561 starts, 3 sub). So does the
6034:
906:
relative percentage of the whole. If we change the prior section inclusion criteria to properly define the
6162:
6065:
3248:
3223:
3187:
3132:
3052:
2921:
2722:
2647:
2574:
2445:
2417:
2307:
1321:
1307:
1243:
995:
967:
855:
786:
701:
613:
579:
507:
304:
257:
211:
680:
49:
2474:
1921:
1421:
1167:
However, the next two players down from Kinkladze, Kit Symons and Michael Brown, cannot be sourced from
64:
2986:
teamsheet database tallies and in almost all cases the discrepancy is caused by a stupid error in the
3323:
Individual player statistics data web sourcing effort β Status of James Scott's "Top 50" MCFC players
2978:
sourced players in the table over the last week or so I have found numerous disconnects between the
6002:
3273:
3151:
3119:
record, but I'm not willing to do so for the league games! I wasted over two hours analyzing Uwe's
3079:
2753:
2685:
2344:
research). In addition to those seven players, three others currently have their stats. sourced to
1329:
1267:
1026:
883:
813:
720:
645:
594:
552:
419:
407:
281:
238:
195:
2792:
web site, so effectively the contradiction here has James supporting both sides of the argument!).
6100:
6080:
186:
Looking over the article history I think the origin of many of the misidentified centre halfs is
115:
3211:
3171:
3143:
3099:
3039:
WRT the most contemporary players whose stats. are also available elsewhere on the web (such as
2771:
2381:
but with three of them differing on career dates once I had adjusted them to the new definition
6151:
6090:
6068:
6011:
3277:
3252:
3227:
3191:
3178:
error, and now I'm convinced more than ever that M.E.N. journalist James Scott simply used the
3155:
3136:
3083:
3056:
2925:
2757:
2748:
from the following day also list the same team. Think this discrepancy is definitively solved.
2726:
2689:
2651:
2578:
2449:
2421:
2311:
1333:
1311:
1271:
1247:
1095:"other" totals and, of course, that is the column those "other" numbers are entered in for the
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999:
971:
887:
859:
817:
790:
724:
705:
649:
617:
598:
583:
556:
532:
511:
423:
308:
285:
261:
242:
215:
199:
6062:
5503:
Individual player statistics data web sourcing effort β Status of World War I era MCFC players
3019:
web sites. Being correct for 80% or even 90% of the players is just not good enough IMO. The
2879:
on a per season match basis but somehow get overlooked when the various totals are tallied by
2835:
2770:
web site that you just pointed me to (in the section above re Gillespie's 30 goal tally) says
327:
45:
2667:
2097:
1615:
370:
the alphabetical player list with totals, and once to the season page with the debut on it.
112:
165:
Centre half is a particularly nebulous one, with its gradual movement backwards over time.
3142:
Found it. 13 December 1975, Coventry (h). Listed as replacing Booth in the book (p. 419),
1122:
statistics base, I could do all those columns myself fairly quickly using the data on the
403:
398:
3047:
numbers for the more historic players (i.e., any player playing in the old millennium!).
685:
657:
637:
499:
335:
5974:
5469:β Initially, career dates span only updated; later updated to add supporting RS citation
114:
5995:
5421:β Appearances and/or Goals tallies updated; M.E.N. RS citation added; footnote(s) added
3269:
3147:
3075:
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1325:
1279:
1263:
1022:
879:
809:
716:
641:
590:
548:
415:
277:
234:
191:
2774:! LMAO. You can't pick and choose your sources to suit whatever agenda you have. If
6076:
910:
entries, then all the entries currently sourced from James will become equally wrong.
3218:) source and just footnote the discrepancy with the earlier James book attribution.
2601:
I mentioned I wished to resolve I have already gone ahead and updated five of them,
6030:
5845:
871:
2334:
Five of those players (Kompany, Silva, Hart, AgΓΌero, TourΓ©) have to be sourced to
2545:- even the errors in the dates for Ewing, Barnes and Lake come from that article.
6025:
2974:
web site) is the correct version. As I've checked through the stats. of all the
2244:
2039:
1796:
1545:
3233:
Second time of asking: do you know which player is being wrongly attributed by
2965:
BTW, I totally agree with you that despite also being sourced from James, the
2193:
1973:
1733:
1483:
1082:
web site data presented at the bottom of each player's "Player details" page).
153:
950:
columns. International appearances and goals should also be separately shown.
152:
Positions are always going to be open to a certain degree of interpretation.
2866:(you just said you did instead); and you have never possessed a copy of the
2140:
1670:
334:
use "a couple of general non-specific references" back then. The first ever
166:
2473:
The Scott series of articles in the summer of 2013 is clearly derived from
913:
This situation permits only three possible solutions. (1) We split all the
462:
with a scheme that solved the issue and see if it worked) has been correct.
3023:
data is probably the best of the lot but it still cannot hold a candle to
2990:
data (along similar lines to the Book-Booth swap). In the few cases where
6158:
6141:
2737:
2704:
players, the first four of which are the ones bulleted above (the others
1861:
Example of envisaged Table A format - with footnoted columns left-aligned
931:
for which the alternative match inclusion criteria will have to be added.
6041:
from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read
5415:β Career dates span updated; M.E.N. RS citation added; footnote(s) added
541:
Knowledge (XXG):Manual_of_Style/Icons#Accompany_flags_with_country_names
2251:
2202:
2149:
2047:
1981:
1928:
1803:
1742:
1679:
1553:
1491:
1428:
6135:
which offers some basic guidelines on the purpose of user talk pages.
2736:
same team, as does mcfcstats.com. Using my library card to log in to
935:
sandboxes, etc. Let's call the James sourced table "Table A" and the
3115:
domestic cup or Euro game I might be prepared to search through his
2501:
in 2009 before most of the seven players who we have to source from
187:
2850:, but I was unaware of that until you gave me the Gillespie link)?
636:
Last one, I think - not sure the "Happy to be Blue" website meets
330:
used for inline references had only just been created. You really
2353:
Dunne's stats. can be consistently sourced from either Scott or
808:
go back and read them when I needed a smile putting on my face.
2485:
sometime in 2009. This James article had to have been added to
6267:
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a
6246:
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a
6225:
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a
6204:
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a
412:
Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request
116:
15:
6046:
You may use external websites or publications as a source of
2854:
here. I have two citable sources for my version of things -
2825:
2377:
21 of the ones I've used completely matched statistics-wise
1320:
A few examples, in no way intended to be exhaustive, are at
2663:
Power as your edit summary except League 358 starts + 7 sub
457:. So I reverted his edit for not properly being sourced -
5439:β Appearances tally updated; footnote added documenting
2332:
so we don't need another web source for those players.
742:
339:
5403:β Career dates span updated; M.E.N. RS citation added
2846:
view of the world (which I believe is sourced off of
6133:
Knowledge (XXG):Talk page guidelines#User talk pages
2804:
to support your case only when it suits your agenda.
5449:β Goals tally updated; footnote added documenting
1322:User:Oldelpaso/sandbox#Player_list_possible_styles
6167:"if you have a problem then you are the problem"
2668:Soccerbase entirely different (and questionable)
2339:the time - but I would prefer them sourced from
3003:Consequently, this makes me leery of using the
27:, where you can send him messages and comments.
6043:Knowledge (XXG):Donating copyrighted materials
6033:has been removed, as it appears to have added
130:Thanks for your efforts on the player lists.
5397:β No change to data; M.E.N. RS citation added
1115:, thus allowing apples to apples comparisons.
8:
2022:tag is malformed or has a bad name (see the
1102:The "Other 2" column is inapplicable to the
182:is nothing more than a complete red herring!
2367:seven are internally inconsistent with the
922:table to match the inclusion criteria that
691:What's really annoying (ironic?) about the
5506:
3326:
3035:Of course, I can only spot such errors in
2807:My advice to you is to stay well clear of
2766:Ric's (whoever Ric is?) stats side of the
2389:(21-3=) 18 matched the M.E.N. dates as is
1864:
1348:
414:, geography isn't necessarily a barrier.
2795:OK, to be fair, you did also mention the
2633:I'm going to continue on processing the
6131:You might find it useful to look over
2399:(these are tagged with a "2" footnote)
2391:(these are tagged with a "1" footnote)
2383:(these are tagged with a "3" footnote)
2328:ten of them are already sourced from
876:Association of Football Statisticians
7:
6037:material to Knowledge (XXG) without
5991:List of Manchester City F.C. players
5459:β Originally sourced erroneously to
365:Brook made his debut in March 1928.
6259:
6238:
6217:
6196:
5475:β see additional status table below
2014:
1345:Example of envisaged Table B format
494:The likely useful lifespan of that
3210:attribute to the young substitute
14:
44:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
6024:
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2201:
2148:
2096:
2046:
1980:
1927:
1802:
1741:
1678:
1614:
1552:
1490:
1427:
39:Click here to start a new topic.
190:. Thanks for clearing them up.
2297:Player lists - data resolution
665:was able to source all of the
1:
6190:23:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
6152:20:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
2842:view of the world, or to the
36:Put new text under old text.
2836:"Top 10 Overall Appearances"
2627:Booth (debut year 1967-: -->
2619:Swift (final year 1950-: -->
1062:Positions tactical evolution
6119:06:10, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
6091:01:49, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
6069:18:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
6012:15:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
5935:17:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
5495:22:49, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
2982:numbers and the comparable
2623:Book (final year 1974-: -->
743:this version of the article
6292:
5961:14:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
5878:
5844:
5805:
5766:
5727:
5688:
5649:
5610:
5573:
5347:
5308:
5269:
5225:
5185:
5147:
5139:(to further correct dates)
5103:
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4648:
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2010:
2005:
1971:
1959:
1954:
1920:
1795:
1730:
1667:
1605:
1543:
1481:
1420:
865:What is sourced to James'
6050:, but not as a source of
5979:
5972:
5849:
5546:
5543:
5538:
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5522:
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5509:
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3278:17:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
3253:20:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
3228:22:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
3192:20:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
3156:19:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
3137:19:00, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
3084:19:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
3057:12:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
2926:23:33, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
2826:http://www.mcfcstats.com/
2772:he definitely didn't play
2758:21:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
2727:20:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
2690:19:07, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
2652:06:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
2579:00:14, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
2505:had even joined the club.
2450:20:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
2422:20:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
2411:sources do not recognise.
1895:
1890:
1887:
1884:
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1377:
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1351:
1334:18:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
1312:19:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
1272:17:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
1248:05:47, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
1031:19:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
1000:23:33, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
818:18:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
567:Most prolific goalscorers
557:18:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
231:The Manchester City Story
74:Be welcoming to newcomers
3172:away game against Honved
2620:1949, added footnote A1)
2312:04:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
1185:individually sourced to
972:04:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
888:20:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
860:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
791:04:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
725:20:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
706:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
650:13:28, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
618:04:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
599:20:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
584:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
512:04:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
424:20:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
309:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
286:13:28, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
262:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
243:13:04, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
216:12:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
200:12:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
6223:<refΒ group=PotY: -->
6202:<refΒ group=stat: -->
4931:"A"/"G" footnotes added
4686:"A"/"G" footnotes added
4446:"A"/"G" footnotes added
1018:150 or so daily viewers
410:. And with things like
21:Me? I'm not really here
6227:{{reflist|group=PotY}}
6206:{{reflist|group=stat}}
6163:constructive criticism
3318:Data resolution status
3100:James sourced data on
2628:1968, apps+1, goals-1)
338:about football looked
229:series. Andrew Ward's
69:avoid personal attacks
5983:The Football Barnstar
5270:Shaun Wright-Phillips
2740:, the reports in the
2673:Swift as your figure.
1922:Shaun Wright-Phillips
1422:Shaun Wright-Phillips
6265:<refΒ group=G: -->
6244:<refΒ group=A: -->
6058:blocked from editing
2372:have now been added.
134:You're very welcome.
6269:{{reflist|group=G}}
6248:{{reflist|group=A}}
5940:Change of user name
4320:"A" footnotes added
2970:represented on the
836:table restructuring
745:before I found the
565:References for new
408:Library of Congress
6271:template (see the
6250:template (see the
6229:template (see the
6208:template (see the
5015:"A" footnote added
4973:"A" footnote added
4887:"G" footnote added
4845:"A" footnote added
4803:"A" footnote added
4695:Georgiou Kinkladze
4672:
4640:"A" footnote added
4404:"A" footnote added
4362:"A" footnote added
4306:
4274:"A" footnote added
4192:"A" footnote added
4150:"G" footnote added
3144:but not on the web
2707:
2703:
2640:
2605:
2597:
2593:
2412:
2404:
2396:
2388:
2376:
2364:
2327:
741:Go take a look at
630:Player of the Year
80:dispute resolution
41:
6185:
6171:Jimbo's Talk page
6114:
6029:Your addition to
6017:
6016:
6010:
5989:For your work on
5956:
5930:
5917:
5916:
5894:Football and the
5855:Football and the
5821:Football and the
5782:Football and the
5743:Football and the
5704:Football and the
5665:Football and the
5626:Football and the
5569:
5564:
5559:
5554:
5536:Resultant stats.
5490:
5386:
5385:
5262:updated 21 August
5201:Football and the
5140:
5136:updated 5 August
5016:
4974:
4932:
4888:
4846:
4804:
4687:
4670:
4641:
4447:
4405:
4363:
4321:
4304:
4275:
4193:
4151:
3389:
3384:
3379:
3374:
3356:Resultant stats.
3310:Niall Quinn stats
3197:Tommy Booth stats
3098:According to the
3017:Happy to be Blue!
2705:
2701:
2638:
2602:
2595:
2591:
2409:
2402:
2394:
2386:
2385:. Seven of those
2374:
2362:
2325:
2291:
2290:
1855:
1854:
747:Happy to be Blue!
496:Happy to be Blue!
492:Happy to be Blue!
328:Template:cite web
227:Official Handbook
123:
122:
60:Assume good faith
37:
6283:
6278:
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6000:
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5957:
5954:
5951:
5933:
5931:
5928:
5925:
5567:
5562:
5557:
5552:
5523:Original stats.
5507:
5493:
5491:
5488:
5485:
5245:wingers" article
5138:
5014:
4972:
4930:
4928:updated 21 July
4886:
4844:
4802:
4763:verified 19 July
4685:
4683:updated 17 July
4639:
4637:updated 16 July
4445:
4403:
4361:
4319:
4317:updated 15 July
4273:
4271:updated 15 July
4191:
4149:
3387:
3382:
3377:
3372:
3343:Original stats.
3327:
3302:Alan Oakes stats
3294:Neil Young stats
3286:Ken Barnes stats
3094:Paul Power stats
2964:
2712:Uwe RΓΆsler stats
2472:
2438:
2393:, and 11 of the
2323:
2255:
2254:
2206:
2205:
2153:
2152:
2101:
2100:
2051:
2050:
2029:
2028:
2027:
2021:
1985:
1984:
1932:
1931:
1865:
1807:
1806:
1746:
1745:
1683:
1682:
1619:
1618:
1557:
1556:
1495:
1494:
1432:
1431:
1349:
1283:
1099:sourced players.
367:Complete Record'
336:featured article
117:
16:
6291:
6290:
6286:
6285:
6284:
6282:
6281:
6280:
6268:
6264:
6262:
6260:
6247:
6243:
6241:
6239:
6226:
6222:
6220:
6218:
6205:
6201:
6199:
6197:
6182:
6178:not really here
6176:
6175:
6142:
6129:
6127:User talk pages
6111:
6107:not really here
6105:
6104:
6022:
6003:
5996:
5994:
5968:
5953:
5949:not really here
5947:
5946:
5942:
5927:
5923:not really here
5921:
5920:
5896:First World War
5857:First World War
5823:First World War
5784:First World War
5745:First World War
5706:First World War
5667:First World War
5628:First World War
5487:
5483:not really here
5481:
5480:
5243:MCFC OWS "City
5203:First World War
5081:greats" article
5041:greats" article
4982:Vincent Kompany
4599:footnotes req.?
4523:footnotes req.?
4003:Bobby Johnstone
3887:Willie Donachie
3320:
3312:
3304:
3296:
3288:
3199:
3164:
3162:Tony Book stats
3096:
3032:contradictions.
2958:
2868:Complete Record
2785:Complete Record
2733:Complete Record
2714:
2660:James figures:
2616:Rosler (apps-1)
2466:
2432:
2317:
2299:
2249:
2200:
2147:
2095:
2045:
2019:
2017:
2015:
1979:
1926:
1801:
1740:
1677:
1613:
1551:
1489:
1426:
1277:
867:Complete Record
838:
834:List of players
634:
632:awards sourcing
571:
529:Complete Record
404:British Library
399:Wayback Machine
276:November 1939.
128:
119:
118:
113:
86:
85:
55:
12:
11:
5:
6289:
6287:
6258:
6237:
6216:
6195:
6193:
6192:
6136:
6128:
6125:
6124:
6123:
6122:
6121:
6094:
6093:
6021:
6018:
6015:
6014:
5986:
5985:
5980:
5978:
5967:
5964:
5941:
5938:
5915:
5914:
5912:
5909:
5906:
5903:
5900:
5897:
5895:
5892:
5889:
5886:
5883:
5880:
5879:Bill Bottomley
5876:
5875:
5873:
5870:
5867:
5864:
5861:
5858:
5856:
5853:
5851:no table entry
5848:
5842:
5841:
5839:
5836:
5833:
5830:
5827:
5824:
5822:
5819:
5816:
5813:
5810:
5807:
5803:
5802:
5800:
5797:
5794:
5791:
5788:
5785:
5783:
5780:
5777:
5774:
5771:
5768:
5767:Sandy Turnbull
5764:
5763:
5761:
5758:
5755:
5752:
5749:
5746:
5744:
5741:
5738:
5735:
5732:
5729:
5725:
5724:
5722:
5719:
5716:
5713:
5710:
5707:
5705:
5702:
5699:
5696:
5693:
5690:
5686:
5685:
5683:
5680:
5677:
5674:
5671:
5668:
5666:
5663:
5660:
5657:
5654:
5651:
5647:
5646:
5644:
5641:
5638:
5635:
5632:
5629:
5627:
5624:
5621:
5618:
5615:
5612:
5608:
5607:
5605:
5602:
5599:
5596:
5593:
5590:
5589:in.com article
5587:
5584:
5581:
5578:
5575:
5571:
5570:
5565:
5560:
5555:
5549:
5548:
5545:
5542:
5540:
5537:
5534:
5532:
5529:
5527:
5524:
5521:
5519:
5516:
5514:
5511:
5505:
5504:
5499:
5477:
5476:
5470:
5464:
5463:on 2 July 2015
5454:
5444:
5434:
5428:
5422:
5416:
5410:
5404:
5398:
5384:
5383:
5380:
5378:
5375:
5372:
5369:
5366:
5361:
5358:
5355:
5352:
5349:
5345:
5344:
5341:
5339:
5336:
5333:
5330:
5327:
5322:
5319:
5316:
5313:
5310:
5306:
5305:
5302:
5300:
5297:
5294:
5291:
5288:
5285:
5282:
5279:
5277:
5274:
5271:
5267:
5266:
5263:
5260:
5257:
5254:
5251:
5249:
5246:
5244:
5241:
5238:
5235:
5233:
5230:
5227:
5226:Billy Meredith
5223:
5222:
5219:
5216:
5213:
5210:
5207:
5204:
5202:
5199:
5196:
5193:
5190:
5187:
5183:
5182:
5179:
5176:
5173:
5170:
5167:
5164:
5163:in.com article
5161:
5158:
5155:
5152:
5149:
5145:
5144:
5141:
5137:
5134:
5131:
5128:
5125:
5123:
5120:
5117:
5114:
5111:
5108:
5105:
5101:
5100:
5097:
5094:
5091:
5088:
5085:
5082:
5080:
5077:
5074:
5071:
5068:
5065:
5061:
5060:
5057:
5054:
5051:
5048:
5045:
5042:
5040:
5037:
5034:
5031:
5028:
5025:
5024:Mike Summerbee
5021:
5020:
5017:
5013:
5010:
5007:
5004:
5001:
4998:
4995:
4992:
4989:
4986:
4983:
4979:
4978:
4975:
4971:
4968:
4965:
4962:
4959:
4956:
4953:
4950:
4947:
4944:
4941:
4937:
4936:
4933:
4929:
4926:
4924:
4921:
4918:
4915:
4912:
4909:
4906:
4903:
4900:
4897:
4893:
4892:
4889:
4885:
4882:
4879:
4876:
4873:
4870:
4867:
4864:
4861:
4858:
4855:
4851:
4850:
4847:
4843:
4840:
4837:
4834:
4831:
4828:
4825:
4822:
4819:
4816:
4813:
4809:
4808:
4805:
4801:
4798:
4795:
4792:
4789:
4786:
4783:
4780:
4777:
4774:
4771:
4767:
4766:
4764:
4761:
4758:
4755:
4752:
4749:
4746:
4743:
4740:
4737:
4734:
4730:
4729:
4726:
4723:
4720:
4717:
4714:
4711:
4708:
4705:
4702:
4699:
4696:
4692:
4691:
4688:
4684:
4681:
4678:
4675:
4673:
4668:
4665:
4662:
4659:
4656:
4653:
4650:
4646:
4645:
4642:
4638:
4635:
4632:
4629:
4626:
4623:
4620:
4617:
4614:
4611:
4608:
4604:
4603:
4600:
4597:
4594:
4591:
4588:
4585:
4582:
4579:
4576:
4573:
4570:
4566:
4565:
4562:
4561:footnote req.?
4559:
4556:
4553:
4550:
4547:
4544:
4541:
4538:
4535:
4532:
4528:
4527:
4524:
4521:
4518:
4515:
4512:
4509:
4506:
4503:
4500:
4497:
4494:
4490:
4489:
4486:
4485:footnote req.?
4483:
4480:
4477:
4474:
4471:
4468:
4465:
4462:
4459:
4456:
4452:
4451:
4448:
4444:
4441:
4438:
4435:
4432:
4429:
4426:
4423:
4420:
4417:
4414:
4410:
4409:
4406:
4402:
4399:
4396:
4393:
4390:
4387:
4384:
4381:
4378:
4375:
4372:
4368:
4367:
4364:
4360:
4357:
4354:
4351:
4348:
4345:
4342:
4339:
4336:
4333:
4330:
4326:
4325:
4322:
4318:
4315:
4312:
4309:
4307:
4302:
4299:
4296:
4293:
4290:
4287:
4284:
4280:
4279:
4276:
4272:
4269:
4266:
4263:
4260:
4257:
4254:
4251:
4248:
4245:
4242:
4238:
4237:
4234:
4231:
4228:
4225:
4222:
4219:
4216:
4213:
4210:
4208:
4205:
4202:
4198:
4197:
4194:
4190:
4187:
4184:
4181:
4178:
4175:
4172:
4169:
4166:
4163:
4160:
4156:
4155:
4152:
4148:
4145:
4142:
4139:
4136:
4133:
4130:
4127:
4124:
4121:
4118:
4114:
4113:
4110:
4107:
4104:
4101:
4098:
4095:
4092:
4089:
4086:
4083:
4080:
4076:
4075:
4072:
4069:
4066:
4063:
4060:
4057:
4054:
4051:
4048:
4045:
4042:
4038:
4037:
4034:
4031:
4028:
4025:
4022:
4019:
4016:
4013:
4010:
4007:
4004:
4000:
3999:
3996:
3993:
3990:
3987:
3984:
3981:
3978:
3975:
3972:
3970:
3967:
3964:
3960:
3959:
3956:
3953:
3950:
3947:
3944:
3941:
3938:
3935:
3932:
3929:
3926:
3922:
3921:
3918:
3915:
3912:
3909:
3906:
3903:
3900:
3897:
3894:
3891:
3888:
3884:
3883:
3880:
3877:
3874:
3871:
3868:
3865:
3862:
3859:
3856:
3853:
3850:
3849:Bobby Marshall
3846:
3845:
3842:
3839:
3836:
3833:
3830:
3827:
3824:
3821:
3818:
3815:
3812:
3808:
3807:
3804:
3801:
3798:
3795:
3792:
3789:
3786:
3783:
3780:
3777:
3774:
3773:Ernie Toseland
3770:
3769:
3766:
3763:
3760:
3757:
3754:
3751:
3748:
3745:
3742:
3739:
3736:
3732:
3731:
3728:
3725:
3722:
3719:
3716:
3713:
3710:
3707:
3704:
3701:
3698:
3694:
3693:
3690:
3687:
3684:
3681:
3678:
3675:
3672:
3669:
3666:
3663:
3660:
3656:
3655:
3652:
3649:
3646:
3643:
3640:
3637:
3634:
3631:
3628:
3625:
3622:
3618:
3617:
3614:
3611:
3608:
3605:
3602:
3599:
3596:
3593:
3590:
3587:
3584:
3580:
3579:
3576:
3573:
3570:
3567:
3564:
3561:
3558:
3555:
3552:
3549:
3546:
3542:
3541:
3538:
3535:
3532:
3529:
3526:
3523:
3520:
3517:
3514:
3511:
3508:
3504:
3503:
3500:
3497:
3494:
3491:
3488:
3485:
3482:
3479:
3476:
3473:
3470:
3466:
3465:
3462:
3459:
3456:
3453:
3450:
3447:
3444:
3441:
3438:
3435:
3432:
3431:Bert Trautmann
3428:
3427:
3425:
3422:
3419:
3416:
3413:
3410:
3407:
3404:
3401:
3398:
3395:
3391:
3390:
3385:
3380:
3375:
3369:
3368:
3365:
3362:
3360:
3357:
3354:
3352:
3349:
3347:
3344:
3341:
3339:
3336:
3334:
3331:
3325:
3324:
3319:
3316:
3311:
3308:
3303:
3300:
3295:
3292:
3287:
3284:
3283:
3282:
3281:
3280:
3266:
3256:
3255:
3198:
3195:
3163:
3160:
3159:
3158:
3095:
3092:
3091:
3090:
3089:
3088:
3087:
3086:
3066:
3065:
3064:
3063:
3062:
3061:
3060:
3059:
3033:
3001:
2949:
2948:
2947:
2946:
2945:
2944:
2940:
2931:
2930:
2929:
2928:
2884:
2872:
2851:
2805:
2793:
2761:
2760:
2713:
2710:
2699:
2697:
2696:
2695:
2694:
2693:
2692:
2677:
2674:
2671:
2664:
2655:
2654:
2631:
2630:
2629:
2625:
2621:
2617:
2614:
2613:Power (apps-1)
2588:
2587:
2586:
2585:
2584:
2583:
2582:
2581:
2562:
2558:
2546:
2506:
2457:
2456:
2455:
2454:
2453:
2452:
2425:
2424:
2359:
2350:
2298:
2295:
2293:
2289:
2288:
2286:
2284:
2279:
2274:
2271:
2268:
2265:
2262:
2259:
2256:
2247:
2241:
2240:
2238:
2235:
2230:
2225:
2222:
2219:
2216:
2213:
2210:
2207:
2198:
2188:
2187:
2185:
2182:
2177:
2172:
2169:
2166:
2163:
2160:
2157:
2154:
2145:
2135:
2134:
2132:
2130:
2125:
2120:
2117:
2114:
2111:
2108:
2105:
2102:
2093:
2085:
2084:
2082:
2080:
2075:
2070:
2067:
2064:
2061:
2058:
2055:
2052:
2043:
2035:
2034:
2032:
2030:
2009:
2004:
2001:
1998:
1995:
1992:
1989:
1986:
1977:
1969:
1968:
1966:
1963:
1958:
1953:
1950:
1947:
1944:
1941:
1939:
1936:
1933:
1924:
1918:
1917:
1914:
1911:
1908:
1905:
1902:
1898:
1897:
1894:
1892:
1889:
1886:
1883:
1880:
1878:
1875:
1872:
1869:
1863:
1862:
1857:
1853:
1852:
1850:
1848:
1845:
1842:
1837:
1832:
1829:
1826:
1823:
1820:
1817:
1814:
1811:
1808:
1799:
1793:
1792:
1790:
1787:
1784:
1781:
1776:
1771:
1768:
1765:
1762:
1759:
1756:
1753:
1750:
1747:
1738:
1728:
1727:
1725:
1722:
1720:
1718:
1713:
1708:
1705:
1702:
1699:
1696:
1693:
1690:
1687:
1684:
1675:
1665:
1664:
1662:
1660:
1657:
1654:
1649:
1644:
1641:
1638:
1635:
1632:
1629:
1626:
1623:
1620:
1611:
1603:
1602:
1600:
1598:
1595:
1592:
1587:
1582:
1579:
1576:
1573:
1570:
1567:
1564:
1561:
1558:
1549:
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1540:
1538:
1536:
1533:
1530:
1525:
1520:
1517:
1514:
1511:
1508:
1505:
1502:
1499:
1496:
1487:
1479:
1478:
1476:
1473:
1471:
1469:
1464:
1459:
1456:
1453:
1450:
1447:
1444:
1441:
1439:
1436:
1433:
1424:
1418:
1417:
1414:
1411:
1408:
1405:
1402:
1399:
1396:
1393:
1390:
1386:
1385:
1382:
1379:
1376:
1373:
1370:
1367:
1364:
1362:
1359:
1356:
1353:
1347:
1346:
1341:
1339:
1338:
1337:
1336:
1315:
1314:
1299:
1290:
1286:
1259:
1258:
1257:
1256:
1255:
1254:
1253:
1252:
1251:
1250:
1231:
1225:
1212:
1194:
1190:
1165:
1137:
1133:
1116:
1100:
1083:
1066:
1057:
1053:
1040:
1039:
1038:
1037:
1036:
1035:
1034:
1033:
1007:
1006:
1005:
1004:
1003:
1002:
977:
976:
975:
974:
959:
955:
951:
943:
932:
911:
898:
891:
890:
837:
831:
829:
827:
826:
825:
824:
823:
822:
821:
820:
798:
797:
796:
795:
794:
793:
756:
755:
754:
753:
752:
751:
739:
730:
729:
728:
727:
709:
708:
689:
676:
633:
627:
625:
623:
622:
621:
620:
602:
601:
570:
563:
561:
525:
523:
522:
521:
520:
519:
518:
517:
516:
515:
514:
483:
479:
475:
463:
446:
433:
432:
431:
430:
429:
428:
427:
426:
388:
387:
386:
385:
384:
383:
382:
381:
380:
379:
375:
356:
355:
354:
353:
352:
351:
350:
349:
348:
347:
316:
315:
314:
313:
312:
311:
291:
290:
289:
288:
269:
267:
266:
265:
264:
246:
245:
221:
219:
218:
184:
183:
179:
175:
163:
162:
150:
149:
145:
136:
135:
127:
124:
121:
120:
111:
109:
108:
105:
104:
88:
87:
84:
83:
76:
71:
62:
56:
54:
53:
42:
33:
32:
29:
28:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
6288:
6279:
6274:
6253:
6232:
6211:
6191:
6187:
6179:
6172:
6168:
6164:
6160:
6156:
6155:
6154:
6153:
6150:
6147:
6146:
6137:
6134:
6126:
6120:
6116:
6108:
6102:
6098:
6097:
6096:
6095:
6092:
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46:Learn to edit
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6261:Cite error:
6240:Cite error:
6219:Cite error:
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6110:
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6083:
6055:
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6031:James Conlin
6023:
6020:James Conlin
6004:
5997:
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5952:
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5846:Jimmy Conlin
5498:
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5388:
5387:
4854:Carlos Tevez
4733:Gareth Barry
4201:Asa Hartford
4041:Rodney Marsh
3963:Peter Barnes
3545:Joe Corrigan
3394:Shaun Goater
3313:
3305:
3297:
3289:
3262:
3245:66.16.144.18
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2719:66.16.144.18
2715:
2708:still tba).
2698:
2644:66.16.144.18
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2571:66.16.144.18
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2475:this portion
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2020:<ref: -->
2018:The opening
2016:Cite error:
2011:
2006:
1972:
1960:
1955:
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914:
907:
902:
872:Terry Phelan
866:
852:66.16.144.18
848:
844:
839:
833:
828:
783:66.16.144.18
778:
775:Daily Mirror
774:
770:
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692:
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185:
164:
151:
137:
129:
126:Player lists
91:
6048:information
6035:copyrighted
5872:entry added
5806:Frank Booth
5728:George Wynn
5689:Joe Dorsett
5650:Billy Henry
5544:Resolution
5064:Francis Lee
4812:David Silva
4649:Tommy Booth
4493:Niall Quinn
4159:Frank Swift
3925:Dave Watson
3697:Glyn Pardoe
3621:Fred Tilson
3364:Resolution
2746:Independent
2245:Tommy Booth
2040:Frank Swift
1797:Tommy Booth
1546:Frank Swift
1378:Additional
6263:There are
6242:There are
6221:There are
6200:There are
6039:permission
5531:Resultant
5526:Resultant
5461:Soccerbase
5451:Soccerbase
5441:Soccerbase
5348:Colin Bell
5287:Soccerbase
5276:1999β2005
5273:Soccerbase
5248:1894β1905
5232:1894β1906
5122:1974β1978
4997:Soccerbase
4985:Soccerbase
4955:Soccerbase
4943:Soccerbase
4911:Soccerbase
4899:Soccerbase
4896:Yaya TourΓ©
4869:Soccerbase
4857:Soccerbase
4827:Soccerbase
4815:Soccerbase
4785:Soccerbase
4773:Soccerbase
4748:Soccerbase
4736:Soccerbase
4607:Uwe RΓΆsler
4569:Alan Oakes
4531:Neil Young
4455:Ken Barnes
4371:Eric Brook
4241:Paul Power
4207:1974β1979
4132:Soccerbase
4120:Soccerbase
3969:1974β1979
3811:Dave Ewing
3735:Roy Clarke
3507:Mike Doyle
3409:Soccerbase
3351:Resultant
3346:Resultant
3121:Soccerbase
3041:Soccerbase
3025:Soccerbase
2996:Soccerbase
2992:Soccerbase
2980:Soccerbase
2976:Soccerbase
2914:Soccerbase
2909:Soccerbase
2904:Soccerbase
2900:Soccerbase
2896:Soccerbase
2892:Soccerbase
2888:Soccerbase
2886:Regarding
2881:Soccerbase
2877:Soccerbase
2637:remaining
2538:Soccerbase
2503:Soccerbase
2355:Soccerbase
2346:Soccerbase
2341:Soccerbase
2336:Soccerbase
2330:Soccerbase
2194:Colin Bell
1974:Eric Brook
1938:1999β2005
1734:Colin Bell
1484:Eric Brook
1438:1999β2005
1221:Soccerbase
1217:Soccerbase
1187:Soccerbase
1182:Soccerbase
1177:Soccerbase
1173:Soccerbase
1169:Soccerbase
1162:Soccerbase
1157:Soccerbase
1153:Soccerbase
1149:Soccerbase
1145:Soccerbase
1141:Soccerbase
1113:Soccerbase
1109:Soccerbase
1104:Soccerbase
1097:Soccerbase
1093:Soccerbase
1088:Soccerbase
1075:Soccerbase
1070:Soccerbase
987:Soccerbase
948:Soccerbase
937:Soccerbase
929:Soccerbase
924:Soccerbase
919:Soccerbase
915:Soccerbase
908:Soccerbase
903:Soccerbase
771:Daily Mail
471:Soccerbase
467:Soccerbase
459:Soccerbase
455:Soccerbase
451:Soccerbase
154:Lee Crooks
6273:help page
6252:help page
6231:help page
6210:help page
6101:Talk page
6077:Cas Liber
5908:20 August
5899:1908β1915
5885:1908β1919
5869:19 August
5860:1906β1911
5835:19 August
5812:1902β1912
5796:19 August
5773:1902β1906
5757:19 August
5734:1909β1919
5718:19 August
5695:1910β1920
5679:19 August
5656:1911β1919
5640:19 August
5617:1914β1924
5601:19 August
5580:1913β1926
5528:sourcing
5518:Original
5515:sourcing
5513:Original
5354:1966β1979
5315:1950β1957
5278:2008β2011
5250:1921β1924
5234:1921β1924
5215:19 August
5192:1914β1924
5175:19 August
5154:1913β1926
5124:1980β1983
5110:1974β1983
5070:1967β1974
5030:1965β1975
4860:2009β2013
4739:2009β2013
4701:1995β1998
4667:1968β1981
4655:1967β1981
4613:1994β1998
4575:1959β1976
4549:1961β1971
4537:1961β1972
4499:1990β1996
4473:1952β1961
4461:1950β1961
4431:1936β1939
4419:1936β1945
4389:1928β1939
4377:1927β1939
4347:1933β1948
4335:1932β1947
4329:Alec Herd
4301:1966β1973
4289:1966β1974
4283:Tony Book
4247:1975β1986
4209:1981β1984
4177:1933β1949
4165:1933β1950
4123:2000β2009
4097:1951β1956
4085:1951β1957
4079:Don Revie
4059:1972β1975
4047:1971β1975
4021:1955β1959
4009:1954β1959
3931:1975β1979
3905:1970β1980
3893:1968β1980
3867:1928β1938
3855:1927β1938
3817:1953β1962
3791:1929β1939
3779:1928β1938
3741:1947β1958
3715:1962β1975
3703:1961β1975
3665:1987β1992
3659:Paul Lake
3639:1928β1938
3627:1927β1938
3589:1953β1965
3583:Joe Hayes
3551:1967β1983
3525:1965β1978
3513:1964β1978
3487:1920β1930
3475:1919β1930
3437:1949β1964
3400:1998β2003
3348:sourcing
3338:Original
3335:sourcing
3333:Original
3270:Oldelpaso
3148:Oldelpaso
3076:Oldelpaso
3013:MCFCstats
2961:Oldelpaso
2840:MCFCstats
2832:Bluemoon'
2821:MCFCstats
2809:MCFCstats
2802:MCFCstats
2797:MCFCstats
2750:Oldelpaso
2682:Oldelpaso
2557:database.
2499:The Times
2491:The Times
2483:The Times
2469:Oldelpaso
2435:Oldelpaso
2320:Oldelpaso
2261:1968β1981
2212:1966β1979
2159:1966β1973
2141:Tony Book
2107:1936β1939
2057:1933β1949
2024:help page
1991:1928β1939
1940:2008β2011
1813:1968β1981
1752:1966β1979
1689:1966β1973
1671:Tony Book
1625:1936β1939
1563:1933β1949
1501:1928β1939
1440:2008β2011
1326:Oldelpaso
1280:Oldelpaso
1264:Oldelpaso
1023:Oldelpaso
880:Oldelpaso
810:Oldelpaso
717:Oldelpaso
642:Oldelpaso
591:Oldelpaso
549:Oldelpaso
416:Oldelpaso
340:like this
278:Oldelpaso
235:Oldelpaso
192:Oldelpaso
167:Sam Cowan
82:if needed
65:Be polite
25:talk page
6157:Thanks,
6087:contribs
6056:will be
6005:Bradbury
5966:Barnstar
5309:Roy Paul
5093:5 August
5053:5 August
5012:updated
4970:updated
4940:Joe Hart
4923:29 June
4884:updated
4842:updated
4800:updated
4602:5?, tba
4564:7?, tba
4526:5?, tba
4488:6?, tba
4443:updated
4401:updated
4359:updated
4189:updated
4147:updated
3240:Bluemoon
3235:Bluemoon
3216:Bluemoon
3208:Bluemoon
3203:Bluemoon
3180:Bluemoon
3176:Bluemoon
3168:Bluemoon
3125:Bluemoon
3117:Bluemoon
3112:Bluemoon
3108:Bluemoon
3102:Bluemoon
3045:Bluemoon
3037:Bluemoon
3029:Bluemoon
3021:Bluemoon
3005:Bluemoon
2988:Bluemoon
2984:Bluemoon
2972:Bluemoon
2967:Bluemoon
2943:cricket.
2864:Newsbank
2860:Bluemoon
2848:Bluemoon
2817:Bluemoon
2790:Bluemoon
2781:Bluemoon
2776:Bluemoon
2768:Bluemoon
2738:NewsBank
2608:of which
2599:articles
2567:Bluemoon
2555:Bluemoon
2550:Bluemoon
2543:Bluemoon
2495:Bluemoon
2487:Bluemoon
2479:Bluemoon
2369:Bluemoon
1295:Bluemoon
1235:Bluemoon
1208:Bluemoon
1203:Bluemoon
1199:Bluemoon
1129:Bluemoon
1124:Bluemoon
1120:Bluemoon
1080:Bluemoon
766:Bluemoon
681:web page
488:Bluemoon
93:Archives
50:get help
19:This is
6184:discuss
6113:discuss
6066:Snowman
6052:content
5955:discuss
5929:discuss
5911:updated
5838:updated
5799:updated
5760:updated
5721:updated
5682:updated
5643:updated
5604:updated
5541:edited
5510:Player
5489:discuss
5259:18 July
5218:updated
5178:updated
5096:updated
5056:updated
5009:22 July
4967:21 July
4881:21 July
4839:20 July
4797:19 July
4725:updated
4722:17 July
4634:12 July
4596:16 July
4558:16 July
4520:16 July
4482:16 July
4440:15 July
4398:15 July
4356:15 July
4314:11 July
4268:10 July
4233:updated
4230:11 July
4186:11 July
4109:updated
4071:updated
4033:updated
3995:updated
3955:updated
3917:updated
3879:updated
3841:updated
3803:updated
3765:updated
3727:updated
3689:updated
3651:updated
3613:updated
3575:updated
3537:updated
3499:updated
3461:updated
3424:updated
3361:edited
3330:Player
2594:Of the
2522:Kompany
2477:of the
1882:League
1879:career
1366:League
1363:career
777:or the
5547:Notes
5533:dates
5520:dates
5389:Notes:
5133:6 July
4925:1 July
4728:1, 10
4680:9 July
4144:8 July
4106:7 July
4068:7 July
4030:7 July
3992:7 July
3952:7 July
3914:7 July
3876:7 July
3838:7 July
3800:7 July
3762:7 July
3724:7 July
3686:7 July
3648:7 July
3610:7 July
3572:6 July
3534:6 July
3496:6 July
3458:6 July
3421:2 July
3367:Notes
3353:dates
3340:dates
3009:MCIVTA
2856:M.E.N.
2844:M.E.N.
2813:M.E.N.
2530:AgΓΌero
2326:twelve
1916:Goals
1913:Apps.
1896:Refs.
1888:Total
1410:Goals
1407:Apps.
1384:Refs.
1375:Total
1372:Other
1224:state.
6063:Giant
5998:Paul
5568:Goals
5558:Goals
5539:Date
5453:error
5443:error
4988:2008β
4946:2006β
4935:8, 9
4902:2010β
4818:2010β
4776:2011β
3388:Goals
3378:Goals
3359:Date
3263:Other
3212:Leman
2742:Times
2635:other
2534:TourΓ©
2526:Silva
2514:Barry
2510:Tevez
1885:Cups
1868:Name
1369:Cups
1352:Name
686:WP:RS
658:WP:RS
638:WP:RS
569:table
500:WP:RS
332:could
78:Seek
6081:talk
5905:same
5902:same
5882:none
5832:same
5829:same
5826:same
5809:none
5793:same
5790:same
5787:same
5770:none
5754:same
5751:same
5748:same
5731:none
5715:same
5712:same
5709:same
5692:none
5676:same
5673:same
5670:same
5653:none
5637:same
5634:same
5631:same
5614:none
5598:same
5595:same
5592:same
5577:none
5563:Apps
5553:Apps
5382:tba
5374:same
5371:same
5368:same
5364:none
5351:none
5343:tba
5335:same
5332:same
5329:same
5325:none
5312:none
5304:tba
5296:same
5293:same
5290:same
5256:same
5253:same
5229:none
5212:same
5209:same
5206:same
5189:none
5172:same
5169:same
5166:same
5151:none
5130:same
5127:same
5107:none
5090:same
5087:same
5084:same
5067:none
5050:same
5047:same
5044:same
5027:none
5006:same
5000:same
4964:same
4958:same
4914:same
4875:same
4872:same
4836:same
4830:same
4794:same
4788:same
4757:same
4754:same
4751:same
4719:same
4716:same
4713:same
4698:none
4652:none
4631:same
4625:same
4610:none
4587:same
4572:none
4552:same
4534:none
4511:same
4496:none
4479:same
4458:none
4437:same
4434:same
4416:none
4395:same
4392:same
4374:none
4353:same
4350:same
4332:none
4311:same
4286:none
4265:same
4259:same
4244:none
4227:same
4224:same
4221:same
4204:none
4183:same
4180:same
4162:none
4138:same
4135:same
4103:same
4100:same
4082:none
4065:same
4062:same
4044:none
4027:same
4024:same
4006:none
3989:same
3986:same
3983:same
3971:1987
3966:none
3949:same
3946:same
3943:same
3928:none
3911:same
3908:same
3890:none
3873:same
3870:same
3852:none
3835:same
3832:same
3829:same
3814:none
3797:same
3794:same
3776:none
3759:same
3756:same
3753:same
3738:none
3721:same
3718:same
3700:none
3683:same
3680:same
3677:same
3662:none
3645:same
3642:same
3624:none
3607:same
3604:same
3601:same
3586:none
3569:same
3566:same
3563:same
3548:none
3531:same
3528:same
3510:none
3493:same
3490:same
3472:none
3455:same
3452:same
3449:same
3434:none
3418:same
3415:same
3412:same
3397:none
3383:Apps
3373:Apps
3306:tba
3298:tba
3290:tba
3274:talk
3249:talk
3224:talk
3188:talk
3152:talk
3133:talk
3080:talk
3053:talk
3015:and
2922:talk
2858:and
2815:and
2754:talk
2744:and
2723:talk
2686:talk
2648:talk
2606:all
2575:talk
2532:and
2518:Hart
2446:talk
2418:talk
2308:talk
1877:Club
1874:Pos
1871:Nat
1361:Club
1358:Pos
1355:Nat
1330:talk
1308:talk
1268:talk
1244:talk
1068:The
1027:talk
996:talk
968:talk
884:talk
856:talk
814:talk
787:talk
721:talk
702:talk
693:PotY
672:PotY
667:PotY
662:PotY
646:talk
614:talk
595:talk
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