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certain editors were refusing to change/arguing that the wording should match exactly the phrase featured in the first few articles available of the incident which stated that Joyce "appeared to miss the call" instead of it being labeled as an "incorrect or missed call". Several TV broadcasts (MLB network and Fox Sports
Detroit to name two) at that point were unequivocally stating that the call was missed whereas the slower print media was going with the appeared stating. At that point, it became common knowledge and no person with knowledge of the incident would argue against labeling the call as completely missed. Merely turning on Fox Sports Detroit or MLB network or getting a transcript of their broadcast would be required to obtain a source. A source existed, had already done your definition of OR, and was easily findable stating that the call was incorrect, much like what would be required in our Paris analogy. Unfortunately, you and perhaps several other editors seemed to be unwilling acknowledge this outside world. If you consider my proposed change OR with this set of facts, I believe that you are misinterpreting the guidelines. I can understand the confusion on your part if you lived in cave and only had internet access to Jim Joyce's wikipedia page. In that instance, you would not have knowledge of other sources not explicitly cited in my discussion. I also pray that you were not the who suggested that using a reputable newspaper from Detroit was a biased or impartial source. My only problem on the night of the game was that I was not familiar enough with the NOR policy to unequivocally prove you wrong.
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safe/out call at first base became a matter of common knowledge, although certainly not so common as the other facts just cited, but it is not now and probably never will be either well enough known or obvious enough on the face of it to omit a reference to a reliable, secondary source in place of an unadorned link to a picture or video. Essentially, when an interpretation of raw data is required, NOR forbids editors from doing that interpretation themselves and then adding it to an article, and forces us to rely on secondary sources in order to assure the quality of the project. It may seem a meaningless formality in a case like this, where the truth is relatively easy to ascertain with a working knowledge of the rules of baseball and adequate vision, but the policy applies regardless.
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call original research." No one knowledgeable of the Jim Joyce call would object to the call being called missed or incorrect. Sources could easily be found proving the call was missed in videos, pictures and published articles at the time of your post. Unfortunately, you and several wiki editors fascists were unwilling to take the time to verify the statements of everyone else. You decided to jump behind a policy without any critical thinking on your part. Fortunately, more knowledgeable heads have prevailed, and the page currently, accurately states that the call was incorrect. Thank you for doing your part IMO in ruining wikipedia.
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had been blown. And my point then, which I am still completely confident in, is that that kind of judgment call isn't permitted under the NOR policy, and that we have to leave the interpretation of visual information like that to secondary sources. TV and radio broadcasts could have been fine sources for such interpretation, the only problem being that they are usually difficult to cite in an acceptable form so soon after they occur. Written articles were, at that point, the most practical way we had of confirming the call's incorrectness
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advocating the use of raw data were wrong. I'm willing to accept that they (you) were innocently wrong--NOR really can be difficult to understand when one first learns about it. But wrong is what you were. The mistake was of little consequence in this case, given the abundance of reliable secondary sources which followed the primary sources originally used. But in other articles, you will find that using primary sources where secondary sources are missing or contradictory just will not fly.
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The discussion was ongoing, but the other user involved was reverting my reversions as supposed vandalism (and violating the 3RR himself, although he doesn't appear to have been warned). This is my question: should I have left the poor-quality POV material in the article while discussion was ongoing?
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You'll note that throughout the discussion in the minutes immediately following the end of the game, I was advocating a cautious stance on our wording for the time being, while acknowledging the likelihood that as more secondary sources checked in, we would probably see a reliable consensus emerging
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On a second topic, you state that "probably never will be either well enough known or obvious enough on the face of it to omit a reference". Obviously this does not matter in this case since I had already posted references, but at what point do enough people have to know something for it to lack an
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So, on review, I was completely correct. Caution was warranted in the immediate aftermath of the game, and the cautious wording I suggested closely tracked the earliest written reports coming out of the game and did no harm whatsoever to the article's accuracy, either short- or long-term. And those
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I'm sorry you don't understand NOR; it can be tricky to grasp when a person is very used to employing their personal knowledge or "common sense" to reason and report on events in the world. For this project, however, that instinct isn't appropriate. Stick around a while, and I'm sure you'll get the
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Yes you misinterpreted Wiki's "No
Original Research" policy which states, ""Paris is the capital of France" needs no source because no one is likely to object to it, but we know that sources for that sentence exist. If no source exists for something you want to add to Knowledge (XXG), it is what we
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But that's really tangential to the NOR issue. Some users (I don't know if you were one of them) were advocating an out-and-out statement that the call was incorrect on the basis of pictures and video alone. They were explicitly making the argument that it was obvious from the images that the call
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Yawn, I have edited several pages in the past with citations where appropiate. Perhaps you missed the 4 articles I posted in the discussion page on the night of the incident that sourced the call and the picture of the call that I sourced as well? I can forgive you for that. My problem is that
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for your vituperative hostility. In any event, I didn't misinterpret the NOR policy. Paris's relationship to France is a matter of common, almost universal knowledge, as is the fact that humans breathe air, and that IP address users are prone to hit-and-run personal attacks. That Joyce missed the
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At this point I am not arguing this "Some users were advocating an out-and-out statement that the call was incorrect on the basis of pictures and video alone." And obviously none of this matters; it is academic at this point. I obviously disagree with your interpretation of the policy, because
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immediate reference. Can you name the capital of the
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Re-read the style guideline as the section you refer to is not part of the info box discussion, but refers to a separate table at the end of the article. The awards notable for the infobox are listed under infobox highlights. (repeating what i said on my talk page).
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360:, which mentions as additional awards appropriate for the infobox "The Sporting News annual awards." Can you point me to the past discussions that you claim establish that only awards on your linked page should be placed in a player's infobox?
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that the call was in fact incorrect, and not merely that it appeared so. I never suggested that the wording be permanently fixed in any one form; that would have been foolish, given how close in time we were to the events described.
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As far as how to better handle the situation in the future, I would suggest that you try to discuss on the talk page after your first revert. If this is a low-traffic page, you might also look at some of our other
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First, please do not remove warnings from your talk page. We use them to make sure we aren't giving you any redundant information, and removing them can be considered
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122:Guess who's
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1147:voting page
1059:voting page
969:voting page
881:voting page
793:voting page
715:voting page
642:voting page
307:—Preceding
214:—Preceding
178:hang of it.
147:—Preceding
124:at it again
1131:topic bans
1043:topic bans
953:topic bans
865:topic bans
777:topic bans
699:topic bans
626:topic bans
553:topic bans
488:topic bans
419:topic bans
377:Spanneraol
167:No, thank
50:IP address
1127:site bans
1039:site bans
949:site bans
861:site bans
773:site bans
695:site bans
622:site bans
549:site bans
484:site bans
415:site bans
348:Yankees10
344:this page
75:vandalism
309:unsigned
216:unsigned
149:unsigned
21:March 31
19:made on
1177:History
1154:NoACEMM
1066:NoACEMM
976:NoACEMM
888:NoACEMM
800:NoACEMM
54:reverts
32:blocked
405:. The
128:Calton
44:effect
40:revert
362:SS451
276:SS451
185:SS451
107:SS451
95:ESkog
60:ESkog
1187:talk
1165:talk
1117:The
1077:talk
1029:The
987:talk
939:The
898:talk
851:The
810:talk
763:The
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685:The
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612:The
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539:The
474:The
439:talk
381:talk
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317:talk
280:talk
224:talk
189:talk
157:talk
132:Talk
126:? --
89:and
24:2006
399:Hi,
169:you
93:. (
28:UTC
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