449:
better still remain neutral and not pass judgements. If xav comes back or another mediator is found, perhaps we should request that they do not pass judgement on other editors and try to take a neutral tone? Also we should be able to defend ourselves against false accusations or else scuro asked by mentor to limit or avoid completely character assassinating other editor. What do you think?--
646:
an ANI or RFC. Carcharoth has made it clear that he doesn't want further posting on the arbitration amendment request. I'm pretty sure
Xavegoem doesn't want it on his talk page, and I certainly don't want a "wall of words" on my talk page. As for this page, I think you folks really should back off. This talk page is about a mentorship relationship period.
55:
be a waste of your time: You know that the statements were fundamentally accurate (even if you dislike how I describe them), you know that the diffs exist (because how else could you have provided them?), and you admit that you misunderstood what I said (see the "My apologies if I misinterpreted the meaning of what you said" statement).
508:, independent of any other consideration. If Scuro wants diffs, I will provide diffs -- as many as are necessary to satisfy him that diffs were truly available. If he decides that he already has entirely sufficient information, I will accept a plain statement that he no longer finds himself lacking any information
395:
He didn't seem to call scuro on anything. Scuro was bad mouthing, character assassinating editors but when for example yourself tried to defend yourself your actions were labeled nasty. This may have been ok if the mentor was also labeling scuro's distortions and character assassinations as nasty but
347:
agreeing at how terrible other editors are and how he has been victimised etc and then advising him at how better to "defeat us". Arbcom was meant to resolve this behaviour but you as a mentor seem to be feeding it! We had all hoped that a mentor would be neutral and non-biased but unfortunately this
54:
I'm frankly not sure how I was supposed to provide the diffs without joining the case, but if you're still upset, I'd be happy to copy the diffs out of your own statement to Arb Comm and provide them to you, on any page of your choice, as evidence for your further review, but frankly I think it would
645:
Finally, if you feel that my behaviour has crossed the line, post on your talk page, if the conversation is one on one, I will respond, and continue to respond. I'd use my talk page but don't want to get into the hassle of policing conversations. If that is not suitable, you have every right to file
641:
If everyone is still assuming good faith, you could make me VERY happy if any of you start a mediation cabal. :-D Literaturegeek and I have agreed to the principle of undue weight and fringe sources. Common ground can be found easily. We can all agree not to be abusive. There is much we can agree to
637:
Whatiamdoing, I will respond to you at some point if you really desire that, but I do expect an apology. You were mean above. If you are willing to apologize, post the apology on your talk page. In ten days post your initial statement that you made at the arb com request, my response at arbitration,
200:
The "cast of characters" would naturally follow the case and, after investing so much time and effort in it, would hope for a favorable outcome for all. We all have very different styles and approaches, which everyone needs to take into account by showing good faith. That includes not imagining bad
690:
I am not willing to let this drag on for another ten days. Your choices are to identify all of the statements I have made that you think are unsupported -- so that I can provide you with the diffs that you apparently need -- or to announce that you are permanently satisfied that all statements are
633:
I am sorry that I called everyone a, "cast of characters". You are all different, and are different in your approach. For instance I have to say that I am impressed with LIteraturegeek's willingness to continue talking and seeking solutions. This is a positive event and I really hope she continues.
448:
I am aware of this; sorry I should have been more clear, I was referring to Xav "agreeing" with scuro that you were being nasty. I know his job as a mentor is not to reprimand scuro but if he is going to pass judgement on scuro's foes then he should at least be fair about it was all my point was or
326:
On your terms? I am not sure if you own this page? Is there a policy for this? I must say that you seem to have a rather hostile attitude. Anyway the talk page here is probably not the most ideal and I think the main space of the mentorship would be more appropriate as that is where accusations are
278:
So in your story, an editor who has a long-standing dispute with Scuro, based on his persistent and possibly willful misrepresentation of documentable facts, is (1) not allowed to post on Scuro's page about the problem, (2) not allowed to post on your page about the problem, and (3) not allowed to
108:
that has received as many negative comments as you and
Mattisse have, despite apparently trying to get along with editors, would not be pleased to see new messages, because (based on a purely rational analysis of past experience), odds are that the new message is another message from someone who is
663:
I would like to state that I believe
Xavegoem's intentions were well meant and he should be respected for volunteering his own personal time to scuro. I feel that he did not anticipate nor appreciate what way his words were being interpreted. I believe that he is a good person. It is sad to see so
396:
it seemed the opposite was true. Perhaps it was unfair to assume Xav had believed a claim or not. I have struck out my comments but the rest of my post still stands. I felt we were being treated one way and scuro another, like compare for example hostile comments like "you can discuss things here,
286:
I would personally prefer to resolve this here and now, and I suspect that Scuro would prefer the one-on-one approach that I've offered him to an RfC/U. I am perfectly capable of documenting every single claim I have made about Scuro. The only question in my mind is whether he, on reviewing what
433:
I do not choose to be offended by Scuro's decision that my insistence that he quit making this baseless accusation is "nasty". I am focused on convincing him that every single claim I made is trivially demonstrable. Every single sentence can be supported by links to the related ArbCom pages. I
282:
I have ruled out letting Scuro continue to smear me this way whenever he finds it convenient. Your proposed restrictions on communication leaves escalation to an RfC/U -- which is my plan if Scuro doesn't choose to resolve this Real Soon Now -- or to run back to ArbCom with further evidence that
35:
be subjected to the same trauma that
Mattisse is dealing with falls into the category of "unflattering stuff". Would you consider it more flattering for me to hope for the opposite? Or is it unflattering for me to notice that you're stuck in a dispute with very few allies and deeply entrenched
126:. The choice available to you is to either identify the statement(s) that you still believe are unsupported -- and I'll provide you with the diffs to support it -- or give me your word that you'll never again drag this baseless claim into another conversation. Do you understand your options?
85:
I see that
Hordaland has now also popped up on Xavexgoem's talk page offering advice about what to do. Really I don't think Xavexgoem wants you speaking disparagingly of other editors on his talk page, and he doesn't want "advice" either. Frankly, I think he is none to happy about any of this,
115:), and I take this as a sign that you're beginning to feel as badgered as Mattisse. Would it be more 'flattering' for me to conclude that the opposite? Is it 'disparaging' for me to suggest that you've been under attack for a long time -- an opinion that I believe you shared wholeheartedly?
775:
I'm sorry to tell you that my conversations on this topic, on this talk page, ends with this post. You know where and how to start up an immediate conversation. If this is a tightly time limited thing with stringent unbending demands, do what you have to do, I don't respond to that sort of
627:, want you not to quit. :-) You have helped me already and I have real hope knowing that I can talk to you. Sometimes I see the "wall of words", like above, and it feels pretty hopeless. When I am in dispair, with no one to talk to, you don't always make the right decisions.
400:" which was aimed at you whatamIdoing and calling you nasty with how scuro was treated. For the most part I and others raised valid concerns at the mentorship and we had a right to defend ourselves. I made extensive efforts to resolve issues with scuro on my talk page,
167:, Scuro wrote on Literaturegeek’s talk page: "There has been a cast of characters who seem to be following me around. ;) (later edit - See, look who just popped onto my talk page!)." That remark involved an entry, same date, on scuro’s talk page by WhatamIdoing.
515:
The location of the discussion is unimportant to me, but there will be a discussion, and it will be soon. Specifically, Scuro can either choose to resolve this today, on any page of his choosing, or Scuro can choose for me to start drafting the RfC/U tomorrow
691:
not unsupported, or to have me start drafting the RfC/U case tomorrow afternoon (Pacific time). If you actually lack information that you need, just tell me, and I will provide it. If you do not lack this information, then you must quit saying that you do.
175:, Xav wrote on the amendment request page: "I just want to inform the committee that I've picked up Scuro as his mentor," and that was confirmed on the same page, same date, by Carcharoth. All of us have known about the mentoring relationship since then.
738:
You are free to seek any advice you wish. I only say that if you have not either identified the supposedly unsupported statements, or admitted that they are in fact supported, by
Tuesday afternoon Pacific time, then I'm going to start drafting an
600:
I'm very sorry. As I've said in a couple of venues, Xav should be given time to work in her/his own way -- and was only getting started. Would it be possible to continue the mentorship by e-mail, without an audience at every turn? -
519:
Note that I do not ask for, expect, or want an apology or his agreement that my view of his success on
Knowledge is correct: I want to make sure that Scuro never makes this particular baseless accusation against me in the future.
196:, Scuro wrote on his mentorship page: "She obviously knows of our brand new mentoring relationship." (Where she = WhatamIdoing.) It sounds like this surprises scuro, however, everyone had known this for a week at that point.
376:
LG, I think it's unfair to assume that Xav's decision not to call Scuro on every single detail means that Xav has actually "believed" any particular claim, posture, or statement (made by anyone at all). A detailed and
62:
stop your complaints that I didn't provide the diffs that you already had. I resent being painted as a liar who can't back up her statements, especially when you are already in possession of the supporting evidence.
86:
probably most of all with myself for sticking my nose into this. So perhaps it would be best to leave this one alone, if that unsupported statement becomes an issue of importance, we can tackle it at that time.--
39:
I'm also sorry that you're still angry that I didn't duplicate the very diffs that you, yourself, provided, to statements that you plainly admit on the page you linked, in an ArbCom case that I did
80:"And, like Scuro, Mattisse really doesn't want the conversation on her user talk page. (Anyone who gets that many complaints would develop a twitch whenever the new message box pops up.)"
664:
many people come and then leave. He is another statistic I guess of editors who end up leaving this drama. I can't blame him for quitting, it is very stressful. I know how it feels.--
430:
Xav's job is not to reprimand Scuro: it's to provide advice. If Scuro chooses to follow the advice that Xav has already given, this issue could be resolved no more than two posts.
78:
Somehow you thought it important to connect my name with
Matisse's name, in two separate sentences, even though the post was all about Matisse. By "unflattering I meant this quote,
44:
712:
I'd like to talk to my mentor about this because I don't think that my request is unreasonable. Simple request, can you folks make the commitment that I made above,
404:
despite character assassination of I and others going on on the mentorship page. This was why I felt it necessary to speak my mind on what I felt to be unfairness.--
434:
will no longer have "the diffs weren't duplicated in this particular place" presented as "Scuro couldn't defend himself because the evidence was hidden from him".
694:
This is not the first time that I have asked you to stop these unfair complaints, and I refuse to be party to any further delaying tactics in resolving this.
309:
post at Scuro's or my talkpage. Part of the reason for that is I'd rather the mentoree has a place to discuss these issues than go elsewhere with a hot-head.
287:
he's already got, will realize that he is in already possession of the evidence, or if he wants to have it re-presented or amplified for his enlightenment.
331:
It was almost laughable when scuro turned truth into lies and lies into truth and then envoked Jesus Christ to you to make himself look the "righteous one"
339:. You may be perplexed at why editors are not best pleased with how scuro is abusing his mentorship and how you are enabling the abuse of the mentorship.
716:
If we have caused him stress then we can also remove that stress. There will be no better mentor then
Xavegoem, and no better chance to move forward.--
216:
I realize that, but I do think that the talk page isn't the best place for these discussions. I'd rather they went to my or Scuro's talkpage.
341:
How can we not be pleased when scuro has successfully socially engineered your views with lies and distortions which you take at face value?
794:
demands, much less "stringent unbending" ones. I am telling you what choice I have made. What you choose to do is entirely up to you.
749:
choose to do about your baseless accusations, in what I hope is a manner that leaves no doubt in your mind about what my choice is.
577:
No hard feelings, we or at least I understand, we have been dealing with this drama for months or some of us years. It is tough!--
58:
I'm happy to let you think this over for a day or two, but I request that you choose between requesting the diffs immediately, or
283:
Scuro is not willing to resolve even quite simple disputes. Are there any other significant options that you think I've missed?
489:
Scuro has repeatedly requested that editors not use his talk page. Xav, I'm really not sure how to interpret your
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Xavegoem, let me know what I can do differently and I will. My world is a brighter place with you in it!! :D --
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as anything other than a request that no one post about Scuro to yours. And now you don't want a problem
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188:) and scuro correctly notes here that I (Hordaland) have "now also popped up on Xavexgoem's talk page."
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I’d just like to point out that scuro, Literaturegeek, Jmh649, Unionhawk, WhatamIdoing and myself are
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signaled: no comments to talk page. Shouldn't be a problem; I hope I can just stay out of it. :-) -
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It never ceases to amaze me at how easily humans are so easily socially engineered and manipulated.
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That's a promise that nothing short of being stuck in a hospital will keep me from fulfilling.
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I don't see why. This was mainly a factual timeline which I saw a need for. And both of you
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and based on your responses you have clearly bought into his games of playing the victim role
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and what questions you want answered. I need a bit of distance. Does that sound reasonable?
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You have clearly stated that you don't want conversations on your user talk page (e.g.,
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mad at you. Even if they "shouldn't" be upset with you, it's still unpleasant.
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But my point is this: if there is any 'unsupported statement', it's an issue
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has not happened. It is NOT our fault that scuro is lying and twisting things
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analysis of the veracity of each word is not necessary to provide advice.
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What you choose to do is entirely up to you: I am only telling you what
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I have plenty of time this week, and I want this niggling problem solved
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WhatamIdoing has since written about the mentorship on Xav’s talk page (
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and might be expected to follow each other around to whatever extent.
538:, lest this happen. It was not an exclusion of other options. I'm out.
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Scuro, I am willing to hear what you wish to be apologized to about.
501:. What's left? I can't talk to Scuro through your e-mail address.
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that he will never again claim to be lacking any such information.
156:). All of these people, as parties, should have watchlisted the
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For the record, I figured it was a better option to contact me
714:"Xavegoem, let me know what I can do differently and I will".
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Many editors have endured years of these games, but you are
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to the amendment request (as all were informed by myself on
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How can that possibly be unflattering or disparaging?
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You can discuss things here, but they're on my terms.
350:and it is NOT our fault that you are believing it
345:simply believing the lies and distortions and
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31:Scuro, I'm sorry that my wish that you
201:intentions when none were intended. -
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630:Solutions here, are really simple.
252:Maybe I'm being overly cautious :-p
402:User_talk:Literaturegeek#compromise
184:) and on the mentorship talk page (
305:you not posted here, and that you
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47:: "Although WhatamIdoing
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335:. Kind of reminds me of
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51:this arbitration...".
642:if we have good faith.
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