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governments did not come together scraching their heads to come up with a new cool name, instead people just kept using an old word, which chamged meaning as situation developed and as name of the sea changed this word also changed over multiple translations. And the focus is to show how the term developed and give insight in history of countries it currently refers to as far as it helps to understand everything better. Nobody is claiming there were Baltic States in the
Medieval ages or that previously the word Baltic had the same meaning, on the contrary - it clearly shows that the term meant something else and changed over time. It is relevant for encyclopedia as people come here to look up information on something they want to understand, not just what the exact definition of the word is right now. If your dream comes true and everyone stops calling Estonia Baltic and then the term actually evolves to a linguistic one, it should still explain to a reader currious about what it meant right about now what the situation used to be. And in the same way if the reader comes accross a reference to Baltics in an earlier era and comes looking for explanation how it was used, they need to know that too. And also my correction was because you inadvertantly widened meaning to other parts of the Swedish empire ~~
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native
English speaker to see it, surely there have been other people, some of whom might even be bilingual and speak Latvian natively. Poetry is not exactly the form of speech where you find common constructions and the point of translating the thing is to give people who don't speak Latvian idea what it actually says, not to make it say what you think it should say. Latvia and Latvians, and also happiness and joy are different things. If you had taken some time to read "history" section of the article you might have noticed that the lyrics were written half a century before the country was ever established and speaks of Latvian people wanting to establish their own country and live there happily ever after, rather than people of that (back then hypothetical) country frolicking around joyfully at the present time. Thinking this through I decided that this is more important than some arrogant know-it-all thinking it makes Latvian people look like children, pretty sure people who care will understand that it is not what it means. ~~
706:? As far as I am concerned those sites are grammar reference which represent mainstream views. Minor coding problems (they don't use foreign letters, rather they have set the site to Baltic encoding which mostly displays incorrectly unless you switch to it manually) and you disliking Latvian linguists are not valid reasons to ignore or remove these sources. You should rather represent main stream views and then mention opposing views from other sources. But anyways my concern was that it would be best to pick terms that aren't applied to different mood in other sources, it would be confusing for readers, it's just a minor issue I noted, I am not going to protest, do as you wish ~~
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is better than no reference, but in that situation simply finding another source would be better.) In reality you actually suggested another name for atstāst. izt. not vēl. izt. (which I'm rambling about above.) The thing is, it already has three names: quotative, relative and inferential and those names actually make sense (quote = citēt, relate = atstāstīt, infer = spekulēt.) Ailab calling it "conjunctive" (a common name that would be most closely translated as "vēlējuma izteiksme") does not help
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Especially before 1918? I'd like know what your definition of a "common region" is. Yes there's a lot of partnership between the three as there should be. All three suffered under the same hardships in WW2 and during occupation. And all those sources should be covered. But
Estonia is de facto also deeply connected with Finland. And economically and administratively speaking, much more so than with LV or LT. Exports & imports are dominated by Finland, and the countries also
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2017:, but it's kind of about current diplomatic relations. I think history on Baltic States page should be limited to what it is now since it's not a history article and there's allready plenty of it. Otherwise I don't know, there are plenty of articles covering various stages of history that could be fleshed out more, but maybe an article outlining common history could be created? You could ask on
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wishes. This is not a black-and-white thing. But if one country wishes to explore that topic and the other doesn't then that's the individual choice of both nations. It doesn't make one nation more "nordic" than the other one though. It's all wordplay anyway. And in any case, it doesn't matter what I think. Knowledge (XXG) builds on what's happened, based on references.
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Estonia has not been ruled by the baltic german élite for over 700 years. This is a factual mistake. The modern history of
Estonia started with the rule by the danes. Later, the swedes themselves were governing Estonia. The history of the baltic germans in Estonia is shorter than in Latvia. The current wording belittles the swedish and danish influence over Estonia.
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the article, and directly support the material being presented." Who says that each of the items in the list are tourist attractions? Given the lack of inclusion criteria, that's understandable, as there is no need to justify being in a list that doesn't have standards for inclusion. However, that also points to original research as being the source for inclusion.
3195:. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Knowledge (XXG). If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Knowledge (XXG) (see
463:(a difference that most Latvians are blind to); secondly, it is singular and not plural; thirdly it is not part of a sentence; fourthly, any native speaker will tell you that it is a striking and strange combination of words; fifthly, of course, it refers to the American son of non-American parents and is therefore irrelevant to the Latvian national anthem.
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is balanced is to give it passing mention, if it is relevant to the content, and/or link to articles about the country and the particular issues it is having. Estonian issues with Baltic and Nordic identity got a mention and I have encouraged you multiple times to expand on it in the dedicated article (perhaps try to get it up to
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Well, I am glad you have realized that racism and hopefully also propaganda is wrong, but still it is pretty dubious to claim something based on passing mention of those countries as Baltic states - it might just be practical attempt to group countries around sea, instead of idea that these countries
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Hi, you're welcome to propose your own wording for the opening paragraph of the Baltic States. The main thing that does need changing is to stop talking about the history of est&lat in the same sentences. Their histories are too different for them to be included in the same sentence. For example,
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OK, that message I left borders on a full-blown rant. Even
Encyclopaedia Britannica has many errors, those liis type sites, however, I trust very "selectively" and in the event there has been an error identified in, say, Britannica it does not mean that it should still be added (granted any reference
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Denmark and Sweden currently are not considered Baltic States and I have not seen any source mentioning they were considered part of this particular region and as far I remeber you brought it up before and also couldn't really show that they were in the region, not simply mentioned as countries next
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1) If it's about the geopolitical term "The Baltic States" - That means we should focus on the history of the term and the history of the three countries after they started using the term. This means not talking about the medieval history of
Estonia & Latvia on that page. "The Baltic States" did
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Look, the idea of an encyclopedic article is to give concise information in prose about its subject matter, not to list random facts that are somewhat related to the title. It is not balanced to give large coverage to issues important to one country in the region, but not the region as a whole, what
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Re
Estonia being "Nordic" - please stop bringing this up in each discussion, that topic is 1+ year old and I've not said or done anything about it. It has nothing to do with anything on the current topics. If you want to have a "nordic" discussion then you should first understand where the word came
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I don't need additional sources for slmething extensivly reflected in the article. Did you actually look at the map you posted? It also shows half of Latvia under
Swedish rule. The article describes region, articles on each country are meant for describing them seperatly. The only thing I agree with
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Again, you can choose to take my word for it, or to imagine that you know better. I will now amend the national anthem on Wiki. If you subsequently choose to override my corrections with a cack-handed translation, I cannot stop you. But by doing so, you will make Latvia look silly. And you will send
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This is called usage. Any person who has made a serious attempt to master any foreign language encounters usage problems, and needs a native speaker for help. Es taču neiedomājos, ka es labāk runāju latviski nekā paši latvieši? It sevišķi nianšu jautājumos? Valodas apgūšanai vajag pazemību. Bez tās
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This topic would have way more relevant content than the "Baltic states" article page, which needs to somehow also manage
Lithuanian history in it, which is completely different. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't have a dedicated article on this though. Unless we use the Livonia article I suppose. Or maybe a
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status? You might learn more about how to write a quality article and stay on topic in the process). And I don't really see how the bi-lateral relations between
Estonia and Finland are at all relevant to the entire region. I don't get why instead of just writing about issues you clearly care about,
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Don't start this again - the region currently grouping together Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania exists disregarding of you liking it or not and there is going to be article on it and its historical development. This article should not be turned into discussion on if Estonia is (more) Nordic or closer
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If I am being rude, it is because you are being rude and the fact that you reverted my latest change, even after agreeing that it is fine, goes long way to show that you are simply interested in waging a flame war. The text has been there for pretty long time, I am pretty sure you are not the first
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Original research "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of
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In any case - I'm not looking to draw a wedge between the countries. I want the article to show the full history and show the rich & interesting history of all three countries. Instead of arguing about some lines in etymology, we should expand the interwar era section and nowadays. That's when
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Hi, what exactly is the ideal end goal for the article for you? What should it say? We should find common ground here. I feel like we're wasting energy without any reason because our end goal should be the same. This is not about tearing the concept apart or building some imaginary line between EE
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No, it doesn't need to stop talking about history or to reshape the way it talks to be in line with modern Estonian policy of seeking closer relationships with Nordics and nationalist POV. If you feel that factual accuracy belittles you then I'm sorry, but that's just the way Knowledge (XXG) works
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I allready made focus, stop being pedantic to prove a point and maybe you'll see it. As it happens it's the first one, because it's kind of weird to start in the stone age as the article used to do. The difference is that you are trying to narrow focus too far - this is not an official union, the
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It is useless to try to get firm victim count, when there still are people in the ruins and other facts are as uncertain. This is likely to change fast and really it would be more important to get out the latest count, than try to find written and accessible source for it. This can be done later,
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Hello there. Your latest version (daughters of Latvians etc.) is fine. I am puzzled, though, whenever a non-native speaker of EN seeks to overrule a native. The comment you added to your latest amendment does not mean anything in English that I can discern. Still, we can both live with the latest
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which included all peoples in northern Europe, including EE & LV. Estonia is no more "nordic" than Latvia is, taken from the original meaning. Sweden is no more "nordic" than Estonia is. So this whole conflict around it makes absolutely no sense. Latvia can be both baltic and nordic if it so
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As I suspected, there was no point trying to explain it to you. Much of your remarkably peevish reply is irrational or irrelevant. However, I am not going to contradict you. I simply can’t be bothered. Your fury when gently questioned about a trifle is a sign of immaturity. And your resort to ad
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with the alleged figure and Google Translate it. I have previously worked on several disaster-related Knowledge (XXG) articles, and found that requiring sourcing is the only way to keep rumours and hysteric people from messing up the article as the big picture of the event develops. If we don't
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I agree with this part: "And the focus is to show how the term developed" which is why some content should be added about countries like Denmark and Sweden as "Baltic States" or "Baltic Lands", instead of talking about the medieval history of the swedish provinces of Estland and Livland. Those
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Hysteric people don't need English Knowledge (XXG) for news in this case. Also fire&rescue services twitter is currently the best source along with television. It is your issue if you don't even want to trust one of the main Latvian news agencies. I would appreciate if you didn't revert my
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I'm only interested in relevant sources and a balance of sources. It's very easy for the article to get a one-sided view. Define "common region". EE & LV indeed have been more or less the same region historically for a long time. But what exactly forms a "common region" between EE and LT?
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Anyway, what I'm proposing is that on the Baltic States opening section, we will have a couple of sentences for each Baltic country separately, because of the differences in history. The similarity of the three countries is misleading and the three countries cannot be talked about in the same
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But English language literature should be consulted probably. As far as ailab/liis.lv and Latvian "filologi" go, I have very little trust that they can get anything right. I actually try to avoid quoting liis as much as possible because it's year 2013 and they still haven't done as little as
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is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
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is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
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So, there could be discussion whether to call atstāst. izt. quot., rel. or infer. (I kind of prefer quotative, Idk why) but otherwise I don't see the need for extra names (esp., if they are suggested by a source that, imo, cannot be fully trusted and better sources are available.)
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correcting the encoding on their essays on grammar (Icelandic and Portuguese letters, like â and ð show instead of ā or š.) This could be corrected with one line of HTML - specifying UTF-8 as encoding, but I guess that's too advanced for them (and plain embarrassing for me!)
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That's what I'm saying.... your claim is not factually correct. If you think it is, then you should be able to find proof for it. Because it's easy for me to find proof for my claim. And instead of just undoing your edit, I'm hoping to work together on this.
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and I wound plenty other examples online. Frankly I am puzzled why somebody to whom the text seems meaningless would find themselves qualified to translate it, no mater what their native language is. But as I said - I am not interested in arguing about this
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require sourcing, Knowledge (XXG) becomes as "useful" news source for this kind of event as Twitter and other medias where anyone can claim anything. Even at the expense of temporarily having slightly outdated info in a situation like this it's still a
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is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
687:, etc. Basically what I'm trying to say with this example is that, in my opinion, it's best to avoid any Latvian language sources (even if they're written in English) because (imo) they seem clueless about the most basic of morphology, grammar, etc.
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Don't start what again? I have nothing against the "baltic states" concept. I just want the article to be balanced. Saying that I'm against the concept or what I'm advocating some "nordic" issue is a nice way to kill the discussion of course.
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hominem insolence puts you beneath my contempt. Your point of view therefore has no value for me. No need to answer this, I won’t read it. I’m just not interested. I’ll leave you alone with your unsubstantiated certainties and your bad temper.
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page. Oeselians have enough references but Curonians could use some more. I don't know latvian so it's been a bit difficult for me to find good enough resources. I know there are enough in latvian historic literature though. Prieka
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to Baltic sea. There are only references to Finland and Ingria, as far as I remember this is mentioned, personally I don't feel like there's need to go into further details about it as it's not relevant to further developments ~~
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2) If it's about the history of Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia - then I'm not really sure what to do. I don't think medieval history of Estonia belongs on the "Baltic States" article page, which is about a geopolitical term.
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could be mentioned, I left it out because it didn't fit well into flow of text and it's very early history (the text discusses modern simmilatities), plus it too was dominated by German nobility (check the link)
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to Finland - it is not relevant to the topic, I've told you repeatedly to expand upon these issues in the article dedicated to that issue. And let's keep content discussion to the talk page of the article ~~
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2319:. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose
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What are the criteria to meet to be in the list? This page has vague or no criteria. By definition, then, there is no way to verify the inclusion or exclusion of any particular site in the list.
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If you really, honestly, truly can’t understand that a native speaker might have something to teach you about a language you speak imperfectly, there may not be any point, but I’m willing to try.
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because the "messed up" formatting there is intentional. It is to avoid incorrectly categorising the article while it is still only a draft, and will be "fixed" when and if the draft goes live.
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that may be improved or translated. As you have already edited some of the listed articles, we thought you might be interested, and accept the challenge. Hope that you will join us. Thanks!!!
1837:. So - let's create a good, in-depth article that is worthy of the interesting history of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. But please do not forget that Estonia also has a northern neighbour.
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My only issue has been when 1) The article completely ignores Estonia's northern neighbour. 2) Didn't cover the full development of the term ; Those things are OK right now so case closed.
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Furthermore, I have doubts that they are able to get even the most basic grammar stuff right, as the "zina" fiasco showed, for example. It belongs to the same exact conjugation as
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You seem to have misunderstood. I welcome Latvian news agencies' reports. All I am saying is that "who said what" (citing the source) is required even in disaster articles. --
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provinces should only be included if a source somewhere says that those provinces are the reason why Estonia and Latvia (and Lithuania) are now called "Baltic States".
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Nonsense. It is obvious that you are extremely interested in arguing about it. For that reason, despite your indefensible rudeness, I will try to explain it better.
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because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the
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2811:. This is purely for routine maintenance and is not indicative of wrongdoing on your part. You may regain access at any time by simply requesting it at
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Sorry, I don't believe these peoples are considered vikings from modern scientific point of view, so I wouldn't be able to source valid references ~~
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The core content policies are: 1) neutral point of view, 2) no original research and 3) verifiability. This page violages policies 2 and 3.
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And here are some links to hopefully get you to understand that I'm only trying to accurately describe the de facto realities of today.
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a travel guide. We have Wikitravel for that, and many of these pages could be recreated (or already are) there.
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1800:. So what does "common region" mean? Feel free to give weight to LV and LT, but you should then give equal weight to Finland as well.
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Adjectives of nationality do not translate simply between LV and EN: latviešu/latvju can take many forms in EN. For example:
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and LV. It's a common region with a common history. I just want the etymology part to be exact and cover the full history.
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I'm hoping we can work together on common topics from now on. I've added Oeselians and Curonians to the intro on the
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Clearly "X ethnonym son/daughter" must mean something as the same construction is used elsewhere - see, for example,
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Knowledge (XXG) appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited
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a message to the world that Latvians are arrogant know-alls. Un tas, kā mēs abi zinām, nav īstenība.
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Hi! I wanted just to notice that you have two "User religion" templates on your userpage. --
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3143:voting page
3055:voting page
2908:WP:NOTGUIDE
2854:Estopedist1
2821:MusikBot II
2813:WP:PERM/AWB
2341:voting page
2100:voting page
1486:voting page
971:Hello, I'm
949::bloodofox:
767:In The News
671:, Germanic
655:,) except,
594:conditional
558:or Spanish
541:congiuntivo
3127:topic bans
3039:topic bans
2682:FastilyBot
2574:FastilyBot
2466:FastilyBot
2325:topic bans
2084:topic bans
1470:topic bans
1397:topic bans
1167:topic bans
1112:topic bans
1071:. Thanks,
1026:. Thanks,
1022:, you can
736:make sense
616:, ja varēt
612:- " atnākt
569:(" ceram,
560:esperamos
549:speriamo,
545:subjuntivo
368:and more.
205:. Thanks,
169:Baltic Way
63:Edgars2007
38:/Archive 4
34:/Archive 3
30:/Archive 2
26:/Archive 1
19:Archives:
3123:site bans
3035:site bans
2980:consensus
2917:WP:VERIFY
2888:has been
2809:CheckPage
2778:consensus
2716:has been
2712:The file
2668:consensus
2608:has been
2604:The file
2560:consensus
2500:has been
2496:The file
2452:consensus
2392:has been
2388:The file
2321:site bans
2080:site bans
2013:There is
1710:consensus
1650:has been
1646:The file
1466:site bans
1393:site bans
1304:JaanMatti
1273:JaanMatti
1216:JaanMatti
1163:site bans
1108:site bans
1055:Read the
991:caused a
989:your edit
975:. I have
771:Main page
763:this edit
667:, Slavic
637:iterative
622:condition
262:Kippelboy
189:Read the
3204:articles
2680:Thanks,
2572:Thanks,
2464:Thanks,
2270:Geolodus
2260:Reverted
2246:OxonAlex
1839:Talsinki
1749:"Nordic"
1326:is that
1312:contribs
1300:unsigned
1281:contribs
1269:unsigned
1224:contribs
1212:unsigned
1051:Livonian
818:strength
683:, Greek
653:-ināties
537:conjunct
3150:NoACEMM
3062:NoACEMM
2985:rsjaffe
2348:NoACEMM
1953:Vikings
1947:Vikings
1073:DPL bot
983:On the
633:dziedāt
607:si podr
374:Latvian
344:can be
236:Hello,
207:DPL bot
177:Drabeši
2949:or on
2923:WP:NOR
2846:(Līgo)
2799:Hello
2782:Ixfd64
2747:or on
2637:or on
2529:or on
2421:or on
2251:- talk
1679:or on
1153:. The
1098:. The
987:page,
908:WP:ANI
859:hydrox
822:hydrox
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