246:- Continental Freemasonry is notorious for it's schisms, breakups, reformations, arguments, re-schisms, etc. Umbrella bodies are constantly being formed and reformed. The key to this debate is that all the players are tiny non-notable factions. If a large and notable body such as the Grand Orient de France (GOdF) or its rival the Grand Loge de France (GLF) (the two largest Masonic bodies in Europe) belonged to this organization I would have no hesitation in calling this notable. I am also concerned that the only sources come fom the organization itself. As stated above, I think the article would need independant secondary sources to establish the groups notablility.
599:: That's effectively the point - if there is "outside" coverage, you need to define outside, and again, there are irregular GLs that AFAIK consist of 2 individuals. This does not make them notable, though they do exist. An umbrella group that does nothing that directly affects its subordinates (whose NN is not contested, BTW) doesn't strike me as being notable either. There might be 300 members for all I know, but if those 300 are the same 30 people in ten places, and they don't do anything anyway, how do you support notability other than by claiming an agenda? There are plenty of NN mainstream Masonic orgs and people, and I've AfDed those too (who do you think got
263:. On the strength of who belongs to it we have the Grande Oriente Lusitanio, the Portugese grand lodge, the Grand Loggia d'Italia - the second largest Italian lodge, and the liberal grand lodge of Turkey. It is the largest "liberal" body by members and is almost certainly the largest body of non-UGLE lodges. It was set up by the GOdF and many of the jurisdictions in the GOdF's orbit are still there. The fact that it is very weak in the English speaking world, and it is
536:" wurde am 22. Januar 1961 unter der Federführung des Grand Orient Frankreichs und jenem Belgiens gegründet, um die "liberale" bzw. "progressive" Freimaurerei in einer "universellen Bruderkette" zu vereinigen. Siehe auch "Appell von Straßburg". 1966 gehörten 28 Länder mit rund 65.000 Mitgliedern dieser Vereinigung an, 2005 waren im Centre 54 Obödienzen in vier Erdteilen vertreten. ."
565:
Not sure if a simple list of various Grand Lodges and Grand
Orients that belong to the organization helps here... some of these are extremely tiny (with a total membership of under 50)... others are larger. The issue of whether the nominator is a "non-liberal freemason" or not is irrelevant... since
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The text says: " was founded on 22 January 1961 under the auspices of the Grand Orient of France and of
Belgium to unite the "liberal" or "progressive" Freemasonry in a "universal brotherhood chain". See also "Appeal of Strasbourg." In 1966, there were 28 countries with approximately 65,000 members
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I also have difficulty with saying that Bessel and Pietre Stones establish notability, even if you stretch the idea of "independent" to include them. Bessel is essentially just collecting documents issued by CLIPSAS and similar orgs; he does not discuss them or comment on them in any detail... and
753:
Unfortunately, this is a frequent problem in
Knowledge (XXG). It often takes the threat of deletion for people to bother to improve articles (although I am not sure if tossing a few references in at the bottom of the page counts as an improvement... it would be nice if the article actually
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Tosh, Blueboar. WP:ORG says "Organizations are usually notable if the scope of activities are national or international in scale and information can be verified by sources that are reliable and independent of the organization." International. Check. Sources independent
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The Pietre Stones article is an overview of the regularity issue... ie a Mason from Group A explaining the history behind why Masons from Group B are not considered "regular". Neither goes into enough detail to tell us what make CLIPSAS
188:... the source material provided all seems to come from the organization itself... which shows that the orgainization thinks itself notable, not that anyone else thinks it is notable. I think independant secondary sources are needed.
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This brings us back to a few problems: one, if people have sources, why are they never added until the article is up for AFD? Two, as we all are generally aware, Masonry is not now where it was in 1966. Three, how does this
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needs to establish the notability of the organization (which it does not do at this time) and it needs to cite reliable independent secondary sources in doing so. The simple fact is that this
150:, but the GOdF never actually joined the group. Effectively, then, they are a splinter group of a splinter group, and there is neither any assertion of notability nor any to be found.
766:? I have serious doubts. Has the organization never been discussed in the press, or by academia? If the only sources that discuss it are Masonic in nature, is it really notable?
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would never have been formed. I'm still not satisfied that the group invoves itself enough with its constituent members' conduct and/or activities to merit a claim of notability.
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229:. I can't myself speak for how significant the references in the sources linked to are, though, because I can't read whatever language it is that it's written in.
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what makes the organization notable, and used inline citations to back that assertion). So far, all these sources back the fact that the organization
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reliable sources... both are
Masonic in origin. I would think that WP:ORG, when it requires sources "independent of the subject", implies a source
516:- of course. This is the largest and worldwide Liberal umbrella organization. The GOdF was one of the founders, but left CLIPSAS to found SIMPA.
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NN group, despite an existence since 1961. The one thing about them that would be notable was that they were formed at the suggestion of the
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the relatively insular world of
Freemasonry. Le Monde would certainly work in that reguard... except that the article does
225:- Regretably, I can't read most foreign languages, but it seems to have been referenced in "Le Monde" several times as per
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I could probably use that same argument for a number of "regular" Masonic orgs which have articles on wikipedia.--
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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CLIPSAS is one of three organisations in which the liberal masonic lodges have united, not a splinter group.
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centre meet notability on its own? History shows that there is no unity, obviously, or SIMPA
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
582:. it is one thing to claim notability here... it is another to establish it in the article.
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True... if we have articles on "regular" Masonic orgs that are only soucrced internally, we
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Since I don't speak German, I can't really opine as to its reliability. Who publishes it?
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393:. These sources are really more appropriate for use as External Links than sources.
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actually cite Le Monde (much less cite it for anything that indicates notability).
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If the only sources that discuss it are
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As far as the point about notability what matters is that the activities are
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As written above, it's author is actually the historian Dieter A. Binder
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570:, not the organization itself or its rivals. The key here is that the
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Obviously this deletion request comes from a non-liberal freemason.
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Additional source material has been added to prove its notability.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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SALTed as NN advertising?), so I don't see any supposed bias.
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Le Monde, Paul Bessel and Pietre Stones are all listed.
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39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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631:@ Blueboar: As you might see, The
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762:... but do they establish
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853:Please do not modify it.
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