427:- The micronations listed here have articles on their own, with multiple reference sources each. They meet the informal working notability requirements for micronations on Knowledge (XXG) (multiple press sources, real-world presence including producing something like stamps, coins, passports, etc.). This is not a list of things made up in a day, as reference to the articles behind this would show. Applying "nation" notability standards is simply wrong; micronations are a different category. There are a whole lot of non-notable, non-real-world micronations out there - which don't have Knowledge (XXG) articles, and aren't showing up here. These are different. And pre-emptively, Gene popped me a note about this AFD, but I've been working on Micronation articles on and off since I arrived on WP a couple of years ago now; this is not canvassing.
812:,The article title makes it clear that these aren't 'real' national coats of arms (no undue weight to their claims/presented properly). The list of entries is confined to the notable (actually to the noted in this encyclopedia, best I can tell). A reference page to all the notable micronation's coats of arms is encyclopedic.
391:
It probably is "original research", because it brings together various entities ranging from concepts literally made up in school one day to
Australian political statements to fraudulent countries, and presents them all as a single topic. It also presents them as legitimate for coverage as a group of
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the standards for the article are high enough that nothing in it is fairly described as "made up in school one day." Every micronation listed is notable enough for an article of its own (except, I suppose, for the
Republic of Talossa). It may be useful to add references to this article, but there's
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of this page" have certainly not resorted to canvassing). I adamantly maintain that I would have voted in this AfD, and the same way, whether Gene Poole contacted me or not, and oppose any suggestion that my vote or my opinion should be discounted due to a comment on my talk page that I had nothing
784:
I don't believe anyone has suggested your !vote should be discounted (for the record, I shall now say: I don't think it should be discounted, as I will take your assertion that you would have found the debate anyway at face value). It was, nonetheless, canvassing as defined by our policies, and one
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are obviously not what they claim to be, but that doesn't mean that any coverage of them should be deleted from
Knowledge (XXG). It just means that they have to be covered from an "out of universe" perspective. In general, micronations are to real nations as mockumentaries are to documentaries.
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So we can have appropriate articles for the verifyable ones, a list of them, but not a list of coats of arms of them? Why, if the notable ones are notable enough, not have pages for their notable collective features (money, coats of arms, etc)? Either they are notable, or they aren't, and that
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Patently unacceptable for an encyclopedia of real countries, obviously, or an atlas of political geography. But "not real countries, fake and not recognised by any other government" are not appropriate deletion criteria to apply to the vast majority of articles on
Knowledge (XXG). For example,
131:
Further statement: Most if not of all these "nations" have no international recognition as countries or states, and few sources which cover them as anything other than curiosities. Whilst I have no objection whatsoever to articles about the more notable "micronations", what I do object to is the
669:
We have ways to deal with claims that are generally rejected, like those of Flat
Earthers. Knowledge (XXG) must ensure that we objectively portray such claims so as not to give undue weight to tiny minorities or extreme fringe views, but that is a separate question from their notability. Many
522:
I have grave doubts about even the existence of master articles for these "micronations", and as for their "Coats of Arms"... Where are the secondary sources? Are they heraldically(?) acceptable? About half of them look like badges or logos rather than coats of arms. -
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This is not for all micronations. Besides, even if some of these were made up in school one day, they have expanded to become notable and have been cited by international newspapers. For the sources, check out the websites of the micronations and the newspapers.
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It's only a policy violation for canvassing if you pull people in who aren't actively involved in a subject. I am both actively involved in micronation articles and in AFD; the presumption that we wouldn't have come here and !voted anyways is unreasonable.
405:"micronations." Some more serious, some less so, but the different categories are often included as part of the same discussion. See the references in the main article. If this is what the supposed OR issue is, it ought to be dealt with at
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There are also copyright issues in this page, as some of the images are copyrighted, and some are tagged PD but probably wrongly. As essentially a gallery page I believe it is not possible to provide an acceptable fair use rationale.
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They are not "nations", that's the thing. It's fine to be covering these entities as curiosities, in one article each, but there's no reason we should be giving them the same level of coverage as real nations is there? What's next,
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attempt to legitimitise these micronations. They are not countries, and shouldn't be covered as such. A small handful of the "usual suspects" who always pop up on micronation debates seem intent on legitimising these curiosities
409:. But as long as the class is coherently defined there, the other articles on micronational issues should follow the same general approach. That's the only way to avoid POV-forking of the various micronation-related articles.
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Agree with
Georgewilliamherbert. Regardless of whether Gene Poole's actions violate the spirit of the guideline or not, it is not appropriate to attribute his actions to everyone who opposes deletion of the article
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If they are all fake and unacceptable, shouldn't we be eliminating their articles? If you look at their articles, they have multiple nontrivial sources and meet our standards, so why not have an index to them?
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I would have known about this anyways, as I have the article watchlisted. You'll note that I have edited the article before, and made a comment about it on Gene Poole's talk page in
January.
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Other micronations (like the ones set up as scams) are more like hoaxes or counterfeits, which are also not what they claim to be but still may be suitable for coverage on
Knowledge (XXG).
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a list of miscellaneous vanispamcruft made up in school one day about wannabe "micronations" that never existed outside someone's overheated imagination. Fails
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And there's the problem. Many of these mockumentaries are notable, but we cover them as though as they are documentaries. We give undue weight to their "statehood". Please come to
382:
What does "original research" mean in relation to an article like this? Do you think that the editors who created the article actually invented the coats of arms on their own?
320:, every micronation represented has an article. If you're going to argue against the legitimacy of including micronations, target the articles of the nations themselves.
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I'm sympathetic to your point, but I think that's cause for reviewing the perspective of the articles, not deleting them. I think your WP:MICRONAT page is a good idea.
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469:. That most micronations themselves deserve a Knowledge (XXG) article is debatable enough - that we need a gallery of their coats of arms seems baffling.
719:, original research. Also, the fact that the proponents of this page resort to canvassing is a good indication that they don't have much of an argument.
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For anyone confused, these are not real countries, they are fake and not recognised by any other government. Patently unacceptable for an encylopedia.
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The coats of arms of various made up countries. Knowledge (XXG) is not for something made up in school one day. No sources provided.
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48:. Delete arguments are more diverse and convincing; additionally, many of the keep arguments appear to be skewed by canvassing.
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question seems to have been rather solidly answered as are (for the ones meeting real-world verifyability criteria).
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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and previous micronational AfDs all by myself (and probably voted contrary to what Gene Poole would wish).
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The sources on the topic of micronations seem to group these things together - i.e. they are all described
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is not a real country and is not recognised by any other government, but that's quite beside the point.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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nations, whereas most of the sources on these phenomenon are lighthearted or dismissive. --
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Very good point, Publius, but Narnia is not claiming to be a country itself, is it? —
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This user has had AFD on watchlist for the last 2 years. Please give me a break.
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the micronations documented in the article are notable, whatever their origins.
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Are you going to provide some them, or do we have to take your word for it? --
619:- because their very existence is sourced, yet their coats-of-arms is not? -
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Related announcement: Skeleton page for guidelines/policy in this area:
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That's because you didn't bother to look for any, funnily enough. --
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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785:of the reasons he's currently serving a block. --
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794:Fair enough, I appreciate your clarification.
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