907:, two sources whose reliability is somewhat uncertain. The various movements elsewhere all have their own articles. Trying to write a comprehensive overview of them is difficult, and the editors of the present article have not done it in a NPOV manner. They have in particular relied upon very weak and partisan sources, freely using weasel words , most notably "described as". I have strong doubts about the accuracy of the descriptions of some of the groups. Many of these groups are seen by their supporters as heros or martyrs. Probably almost everyone here disagrees, but that does not affect the writing of the article. It has to be written so that actual supporters of the groups would find the description balanced. AIn spite of these difficulties, the topic is notable. csloat's criticisms of the article are in my opinion well justified.
827:(which establish that the article is not SYN), but the nominator keeps deleting them. The nominator keeps making arguments on the discussion page that much of the search results for "Communist terror" and "communist terrorism" are about terror commited by the former Eastern Bloc nations. His point is a distinction without a difference, those incidents are state terrorism but they are still "communist terrorism" nonetheless. The idea that the article is a fringe theory is perhaps the most ridiculous of them all. Anyone who's heard of the
1001:"communist terrorism" -- as an observable and definable entity. This is something specific and different from "communist terror" and "communists who use terrorism," which are two other concepts that people are conflating here. I understand that conflating such concepts serves a propaganda function, but it does not serve an encyclopedic function. Anyway I think this will all be solved with a name change in due time -- "Communism and terrorism" would be a much more accurate and
899:
what became the USSR is one broad topic, most of which is extensively discussed elsewhere. the efforts of what can loosely be called the
Comintern in the period before WW II is another--and not well discussed here. All this is background to the real topic of the article--the activities of Soviet sponsored terrorism during the cold War and afterwards. The materials on the US/Canada are interesting and could well be discussed in more detail.. It's based upon the
1104:) posted a "Note" above it that should really have been on the talk page; in posting it at the top of this page he unfortunately obscured the deletion rationale. I'm not sure if it violates any specific Knowledge (XXG) policy that he did that but I do believe that it has unfortunately handicapped this discussion dramatically. However, when another user tried to correct Biophys' error, that user was ridiculed with phony and uncivil charges of "censorship."
627:"Abounds in the scholarly literature"? Are you being intentionally self-parodic? Your link shows a grand total of 27 scholarly articles using the phrase in many different ways referring to different countries. If it really "abounds" how hard is it to find a definition? According to your standard of "scholarship," we should have a
727:
involvement of the CIA in various events, some can dismiss the idea that there were operations directed against the U.S. and the other
Western nations. No, the Communist Party didn't invent the PLO, anymore than the United States invented Israel... but in both cases, regular charitable donations were graciously accepted.
927:
I strongly agree that views of terrorism ideologists must be represented in such articles for the sake of NPOV. That is why I cited Marx, Stalin, Nechaev, Latsis, and marxist
Kautsky in this article. But csloat deleted precisely these materials; he deleted citations of Stalin, Marx and Kautsky. Hence
385:
AfD doesn't exist to debate the quality of an article, merely whether such an article should exist. I've clearly demonstrated that the term 'Communist terrorism' is of long standing and has been covered by multiple independent sources and therefore has a place on
Knowledge (XXG). The content of the
343:
You said it was a neologism, that it wasn't used in the literature etc, it's been clearly shown that you're entirely wrong. In fact several editors have entirely demolished your rationale for deletion and yet you still want to remove this article. I can only assume that, given your editing history,
898:
the article cannot be used as excuse for POV potted summaries of a variety of revolutionary and/or terrorist movements--which they are, depends upon one's own political views. I know what I think of most of these groups--I also know that other people think differently. The actions of the CP within
794:
Nomination is completely without merit. There is no support for SYN, lack of notability or that the idea is a neologism. "Communist terror" turns up over 30,000 google hits (and the fact that much of it is state terrorism does not diminish the point), "communist terrorism" turns up almost 3,000
432:
In
February 1982, his government tabled the Steyn and Rabie Commission Reports, dealing with the press and security, respectively, and publicly charged that the spectre of communist "terrorism" (a politically expedient "buzzword" for repressive regimes seeking legitimacy in the eyes of the United
299:
The nominator also says it isn't a term used in counterterrorism scholarship. He's obviously unfamiliar with the book 'Terrorism verses
Democracy' by Paul Wilkinson which states 'Italy, Germany, France and Belguim, all of whom have deployed the hardline approach against the Red Army or fighting
283:
and expansion. Sadly, we succeeded. After U.S. forces precipitously pulled out of
Vietnam, the victorious communists massacred some two million people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Another million tried to escape, but many died in the attempt. This tragedy also created a credibility gap between
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Denied. Everything is in the page history (though in principle it is possible that you have mixed up my userpage and user talkpage, it is highly unlikely, as you seem to be an experienced editor). There is nothing to apologize for. Could you please stop disussing irrelevant stuff here? I am not
1000:
Nobody is saying they never heard of this concept; others are simply attributing that view to someone but it is unclear why. What we haven't heard of -- and still haven't heard of, despite all the "keep" votes -- is a single reliable source identifying the specific neologism at issue here --
726:
Well-sourced and detailed. There's room for improvement on the editing, but prior to 1991, there were entire nations under the oversight of the
Communist Party of the Soviet Union. It wasn't the most benevolent organization in history. Just as one might not be able to "prove", to you, the
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It is true that the phrase occurs occasionally but the problem is none of you have found a single source that defines the phrase in any substantive manner. Working out a definition that you think is implicit in the various authors that use the phrase is the definition of
289:
As for it being a new fangled 'neologism' the phrase was used by Time
Magazine in a piece on the Malay Communist Insurgency in 1951 - the piece, by Manfred Gottfried, chief of foreign correspondents for TIME & LIFE, begins 'They speak of Emergency here. It means
334:; that is the problem here. Finally, I don't know you, Nick, but I would prefer if you chose not to personally attack me by questioning my motives here. My motive is to keep original research essays off of Knowledge (XXG). This is an encyclopedia.
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article will evolve over time but the concept of 'Communist terrorism' is not 'fringe' and is not a synthesis or product of original research. The fact that this article runs counter to your political views doesn't make it illegitimate.
415:
President Reagan also began his term of office by declaring his administration's concern to fight "Communist terrorism" (a charge which the C.I.A. itself subsequently described as "unsubstantiated" in a public statement two months later)
240:. The phrase "communist terrorism" is occasionally used to refer to many different things, but there is no clear definition of the term and it is never used in counterterrorism scholarship. The page is a barely readable hodge-podge of
961:. The result of such a policy was a multitude of terror campaigns and terrorist attacks, which should be detailed in this article. (And a number of them already are -- a good start!) Concerns of neologism appear to be a case of
748:. This is not about politics and I find it offensive that several people jump to that conclusion. This is about a page named for a neologism that has never been defined. The fact that the neologism is being used on the page to
372:, with conclusions being drawn that would not last two seconds on their respective main pages. There might be a grain of truth in some of these sources, but two or three users have taken the grain and made it into a whole loaf.
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or something to that effect, I wouldn't be asking to delete the article. But "Communist terrorism" presumably describes a consistent phenomenon and there is simply no record of that phrase being used in that manner.
1143:
the concept is not new. "Communist terrorism" is just another version of the "War on terrorism", known before as the "Cold war". Meaning is the same, just the names unfolded. This one is more current and up to date.
276:, the highest-ranking intelligence official to have defect from the Soviet bloc, would disagree with the assertion that 'communist terrorism' isn't a useful term. This from a piece in the Wall Street Journal site
983:
odd that people say they havent heard of this concept -- a major concern of most of the world for the last 50 years. There seems to be a confusing mix of political POVs involved here. all the more reason for an
1130:
the concepts are well know in modern history, the idea that the term is unknown is POV whitewashing. but this is a topic that gets caught between strong POVs and would benefit with some neutral editing.
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260:(more widely understood as anarchists than communists) and other material. Nearly every citation I've looked at on the page is taken out of context to try to make a case for "communist terrorism."
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The fact that the
Soviets dominated Eastern Europe is not being contested here, and there are numerous pages that discuss that already. Any influence the KGB had on the PLO belongs on these pages
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Oh yes I forgot to add - you are not "following my logic" when you compare this to articles like "History of ____". This article is allegedly about a specific phenomenon with a name. If you want
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In violation of policy, this page takes as its starting point a loose term and gives undue weight to fringe theories. "Communist terrorism" in the present context truly is the stuff of legend.
344:
you simply dislike this article because it clashes with your own political point of view. That's not a personal attack, merely an observation. 'I don't like it' isn't a reason for deletion.
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This article is about a very notable subject: terrorism committed by communists. The content was supported by multiple reliable sources. This has nothing to do with "neologisms". If the
612:, quite systematically, as for the Malayan and Vietnamese insurgency at least. Following your logic, we have to delete more than a million of articles. E.g. do we have a definition for
110:
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Unfortunately (unfortunately because I think that Knowledge (XXG) pays too little attention to theories) this is about a phenomenon, not a theory. There is nothing explanatory in it.
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None of this has anything to do with what I "like," and the problem here is not just the title. Certainly your suggested title has much the same problem as the current one.
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0) I don't care about your problems. Don't bother 1) Wrong. Red Terror refers specifically to Communist Terror in Russia during the Russian Civil War 2) This term
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at the talk page. Yes, csloat provided some valid criticism, and modifications were made to reflect some of his points, but he blindly reverted everything.
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is correct. The phrase "communist terrorism" appears occasionally in many different contexts. It was also considered a propaganda term during the Cold War.
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You tried to do this by vandalizing my user page. I excercise full authority over my userpage when it is not explicitely prohibited by a WP policy.
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561:, among many others. E.g. in Malaya it was a conventionalized term, by no means a neologism. As to the other things, these are not listed in
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theories like Pacepa's ridiculous claim that the KGB created the PLO and making them seem mainstream. It cites people talking about "
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on August 7, 2007. 'The final goal of our anti-American offensive was to discourage the U.S. from protecting the world against
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America and the rest of the world, damaged the cohesion of American foreign policy, and poisoned domestic debate in the U.S.'
643:, which is where this page should also redirect. If we can agree to redirect the page to terrorism, it needn't be deleted.
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There are any number of such references if one cares to look for them. Perhaps the nominator was too preoccupied with this
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The article is really an attempt to create a concept that is not present in the original research in any coherent way. --
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know it's communist terrorism; we're not talking about flat earth or little blue men here. This is plainly a case of
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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google hits and "Maoist terrorism", just to use one possible additional term, turns up 1440 hits. In the
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of the article is not good, the article should be renamed, not deleted. I think the title is informative.
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586:. "Communist terror" and "Communist terrorism" refer to different things; the former is taken care of
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I'd like you to apologise for your first disgraceful comment, and also withdraw your false accusation.
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It has to be written so that actual supporters of the groups would find the description balanced.
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799:, communist groups are only second to Islamic. It has been used in the mainstream media, see
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I am not a "commie," and my problem here is not "I dont like it." My problem with the page is
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among valid reasons for deletion. I perfectly understand that commies dislike such topics, but
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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The page does not require a whittle knife and a bit of time -- it needs a heavy axe.
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about a fringe theory is the symptom; the underlying problem is that this violates
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violations, bringing a number of organizations together under the umbrella, using
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all over the world, terror(ism) is considered an important tool in achieving the
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618:? Knowledge (XXG) is not a dictionary. It is about phenomena, not about terms.
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So none of the thirty odd sources quoted in the piece matter then? Lt. Gen.
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823:. One editor has added citations to the work "Communism and terrorism" by
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The deletion rationale is in the first "Delete" comment (which I wrote).
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So you don't like the title... maybe we can call it "Communist mischief"
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Communist Terror in Romania: Gheorghiu-Dej and the Police State, 1948-1965
1051:, Well-written sourced article that is clearly notable and informative.--
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title that more people could agree with, and would allow us to remove
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there are no references that define the phrase in any systematic way,
953:. In Marxist-Leninist ideology, adopted by many Communist regimes
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War Against Terrorism: Malaysia's Experience in Defeating Terrorism
553:. NY; St. Martin's, 1999; Yonah Alexander & Dennis Pluchinsky,
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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U.S. State Department list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations
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Europe's red terrorists: the fighting communist organizations
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Let the record show that I attempted to explain my action to
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of the 1970s and early 1980s, succeeded in these efforts'
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Can you explain? You think this article should replace
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History of Soviet involvement in terrorist activities
252:" and combines it with material about theorists like
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330:Putting them together like this clearly violates
322:Yes there are references that use the phrase but
1184:). No further edits should be made to this page.
212:particularly interested in your personality.
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453:, but not all of his theories are notable.
360:as per csloat and reasons explained on the
326:and the references that do use the phrase
155:) has just tried to censor out this note (
654:History of Communists in terrorist groups
590:while the latter is a neologism that has
557:. London: Cass, 1992; Carlisle Barracks,
123:. Please see this version of the article
965:, and should be discounted accordingly.
706:: This debate has been included in the
694:: This debate has been included in the
682:: This debate has been included in the
592:no currency in any scholarly literature.
631:article, since that produces even more
615:History of the Soviet Union (1927–1953)
880:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
569:is not a reason to delete an article.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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696:list of Malaysia-related deletions
684:list of Politics-related deletions
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708:list of Poland-related deletions
610:abounds in scholarly literature
1009:without deleting the article.
866:21:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
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449:Ion Mihai Pacepa is a notable
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328:use it in many different ways.
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50:Can't sleep, clown will eat me
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876:) to be a notable concept.--
811:, and in academic journals (
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1067:21:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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1032:11:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
1027:, Well referenced article.
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141:Please pay attention that
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873:. Used in enough books (
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543:. Not a neologism. See
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1133:Hardyplants
937:—Preceding
833:November 17
829:Red Brigade
397:User:csloat
1003:verifiable
923:You said:
819:and
250:Red terror
896:Keep, BUT
767:Mandsford
729:Mandsford
715:Colchicum
641:terrorism
620:Colchicum
571:Colchicum
521:Colchicum
508:WP:FRINGE
483:Colchicum
366:WP:FRINGE
246:WP:FRINGE
238:neologism
214:Colchicum
195:Colchicum
170:Colchicum
161:Colchicum
1102:contribs
1055:Southern
1029:Martintg
984:article.
845:Mamalujo
475:WP:UNDUE
153:contribs
111:View log
1092:Biophys
971:Εμπροσ!
967:Διγυρεν
934:Biophys
930:WP:NPOV
863:Biophys
750:soapbox
635:. But
258:Bakunin
254:Nechaev
128:Biophys
84:protect
79:history
1161:csloat
1116:Delete
1106:csloat
1037:Delete
1011:csloat
776:csloat
758:csloat
754:WP:SYN
663:csloat
645:csloat
601:csloat
584:WP:SYN
370:WP:SYN
358:Delete
336:csloat
332:WP:SYN
262:csloat
242:WP:SYN
234:Delete
88:delete
1080:Чего?
1062:Texas
885:talk
859:title
807:, by
597:WP:OR
563:WP:DP
479:WP:DP
105:views
97:watch
93:links
16:<
1141:Keep
1128:keep
1120:H22l
1096:talk
1076:Suva
1072:Keep
1049:Keep
1025:Keep
992:talk
951:Keep
915:talk
903:and
871:Keep
855:Keep
837:FARC
821:here
817:here
813:here
805:here
803:and
801:here
792:Keep
744:and
724:Keep
704:Note
692:Note
680:Note
588:here
541:Keep
368:and
362:talk
270:Keep
256:and
182:diff
174:diff
157:diff
147:talk
121:Note
101:logs
75:talk
71:edit
46:keep
987:DGG
910:DGG
835:or
746:PLO
742:KGB
710:.
698:.
686:.
656:or
512:smb
455:smb
374:smb
204:smb
186:smb
184:).
180:" (
143:Smb
109:– (
1159:?
994:)
917:)
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756:.
599:.
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48:.
1099:·
1094:(
990:(
913:(
882:|
713:—
430:•
413:•
307:.
172:(
150:·
145:(
113:)
107:)
69:(
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