441:"The person whom Moslems regard as The Prophet" I feel IS a very NPOV way of describing the status of Mohammed. Most non-moslems do not regard Mohammed as THE or even A prophet, so describing him as such cannot be NPOV, any more than describing Christ as 'The Saviour of the World and the Son of God' can be NPOV. (In this case NPOV would be "The man Christians regard as Saviour of the world and Son Of God". NPOV does not require us to repeat the claims that Religions make about their objects of worship or leading figures uncritically. If it did, it would lead us into all sorts of difficulties. For example, there exists a whole section of Christianity, which at it's most extreme, regards the practice of Catholicism as
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Moslems refer to Mohammed as 'The Prophet' (pbuh), while people belonging to other religions might object to this. pointing to the existence of other prophets.) Other NPOV questions about the article might be 'what does 'promoting holiness' actually mean in this context? Perhaps 'promoting spiritual awareness and practice in line with the doctrines of the RC Church' might be a better way of putting this. None of these NPOV objections would be strong enough to justify deletion of the whole article though.
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through images with captions that cannot be seen in the website of the CCS. Yes many of the references where from their website because these are the informations about their
Confraternity. And there is no best reference about their Confraternity except their own. But as I have said I have already found and put some citations from other independent references. Thank you for your comments. At least I am learning very much.--
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My NPOV concerns relate to the use of terminology that is prevalent in the Roman
Catholic church, but which are not used or understood in the same way by non-Roman Catholics. An example might be referring to the Pope as 'The Holy Father' rather than merely 'The Catholic Pope' (This is similar to the
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the above suggestion would introduce weasel words and unnecessary complication into every article on religion. It is obvious that an article about Roman
Catholics describes Catholics. Describing Christ as the Saviour without qualification in an article about christ is indeed not correct; qualifying
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We have a problem here. Knowledge (XXG) is not a backup of personal pages of people and association: it is an encylopedia, so we are not bound to exactly quote them, especially when their use of words is not universally acknowledged. To offer a single example, in the very first sentence the article
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we mean, unless specified otherwise. For the particular article, Saints is perfectly clear also in this context. "Holiness" would not normally be capitalized in a non-denominational context, so while it is clear what is meant, considering the title of the article, the style in general should be a
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my view has changed to one of delete. Many irrelevant extras have subsequently been added to this article. This is no longer an article about the CCS, but about many other things besides, which should be listed separately. The original article is a bit like a 'trojan horse' which has been used to
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the current version seems adequate. By the way, I do not completely agree that there is a NPOV problem with of the wording. For the general examples used, for an
Islamic subject "The Prophet" is clear & NPOV; indeed to insist on saying the Muslim Prophet would be against NPOV, implying "the
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I understand. Honestly, I am a Roman
Catholic. But the case is those lines you have mentioned are from their website. And I think it is unethical for me to just change it when I know that I am only copying in their website. Well, let us see. I will work more to improve the article. Thank you for
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I have already found resources that talks about the
Confraternity. About its recognition in Croatia. But the text is in Croatian and I have a hard time translating it. I have found a website named The Croatian World Network and I have found a article there, telling the pilgrimage of the Director
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If there exist independent, realiable sources, please insert them. As the article stands now, the references are of the kind "The
Confraternity of Catholic Saints Official Website Homepage" which, you will agree, look very much "self published or created" by the Confraternity of Catholic Saints.
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and has even claimed that the Pope is the Anti-Christ. To describe the Pope as 'His
Holiness' would be deeply disrespectful to Christians with this belief. The term 'The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church' avoids this neatly and is NPOV. Similarly the use of the term 'promoting holiness' in this
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Still I stand to my word of not deleting this article because there are now references from independent organization of its recognition and one thing more the websites used are not self published or created.--
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the article because as I can see it all things that where put in the article where relevant to to it. All additional texts were needed so that the concept of the CCS can be fully understand by readers.--
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The article as it stands today seems meticulously researched and referenced and is about an organisation with enough presence in the
Phillipunes to be notable. I have some concerns about NPOV though.
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All entries in the article were from references and some informations were translated to what I read. And I did not put any opinions on all the entries. It is basically in a neutral point of view.--
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The term by itself in English when capitalized means Mohammed unless the context is otherwise (and similarly for the Holy Father). For that matter, there's more than one
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article could easily be disputed, my formulation 'promoting spiritual awareness and practice in line with the doctrines of the RC Church' avoids this and maintains NPOV.
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says that CCS is devoted to "promoting Holiness through the lives and works of the Saints". But what does "Holiness" mean? It is not a universally defined term (as, say,
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153:: it does not seem to have any claim to notability, nor independent sources pointing to it (and what does the external link to the Vatican mean?).
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On the other hand, I still believe that the subject of the article is non-notable and I still cannot see multiple, reliable, independent sources.
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I have found a reference from an independent organization that discusses the Confraternity. This is from Croatia. I disagree for the deletion.--
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vanity article by/about nn organisation. The article has many, many references, all of which appear to be self published.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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person whom the Muslims for some reason seem to consider the Prophet." (& even in islam, there are other
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smuggle in many other things which are not directly relevant to the subject heading. get it deleted.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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every mention of the Saviour in articles about Christian institutions is absurd.
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Thank you for that. Then I understand now. So I will edit it to make it better.--
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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52:. These issues should instead be taken directly to
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170:this article about a non-notable organization.
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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74:Confraternity of Catholic Saints
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533:04:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
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422:little less parochial.
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443:idolatry
411:prophets
256:contribs
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126:View log
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519:Still,
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419:London
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189:Kannie
185:Delete
168:Delete
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50:WP:AFD
120:views
112:watch
108:links
59:JERRY
16:<
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