963:. The article is NOT about the game, no longer, at least, but rather about the poem and its MANY adaptations. The article is titled "Characters of Dante's Inferno" and not "Characters of Dante's Inferno (game)". An article by the former (and current title) is rightfully about the most notable Dante's Inferno, which is the poem and there is no reason to narrow-mindedly limit our scope when that poem has been adapted into at least two video games, a film, a comic book series, a toy, a top ten worthy print adaptation as well, etc. The point being that the characters of Dante's Inferno appear in one of the great works of literature, a top ten recent adaptation, a film, as a toy, in a major video game release, in an animated film, etc. and they have indeed been discussed by professors, such as Columbia University Professor Teodolinda Barolini, a former president of the Dante Society of America, criticized the game for its depiction of Beatrice, declaring, “Of all the things that are troubling, the sexualization and infantilization of Beatrice are the worst. Beatrice is the human girl who is dead and is now an agent of the divine. She is not to be saved by him, she is saving him. That’s the whole point! Here, she has become the prototypical damsel in distress. She’s this kind of bizarrely corrupted Barbie doll.” See Teodolinda Barolini, “An Ivy League Professor Weighs In: Expert View,”
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counterparts in the RW when appropriate. The direct description of characters or plots in a work of fiction (including a game) can be sourced from the work itself,-- for the game itself I agree it may be hard to cite the equivalent of a specific page or frame, but we can use secondary sources when necessary, such as the official guide, and I think there are reviews--for the poem there is abundant secondary literature, e.g. including the extremely detailed academic commentaries of the poem. This could be done by starting over, but since we have a framework here, we might as well use it. And as for expansion,there is so much such material on the poem that there can and should be an article on many or perhaps all individual character as well, treating this as a summary.
891:,” says Professor Arielle Saiber, a classics professor at Bowdoin College. Because this particular game, film, action figure, and comic series happens to be adapted from such a significant poem, bonafide scholars (see also the New York Times review from Google) do indeed take interest and discuss the poem versus the game’s depiction of these incredibly notable characters. As such, we unequivocally have the basis for an article. By the way, these sources were not exactly that hard to find… and I have just cited a few of MANY… On one more note, the subject of aspects of Dante’s work and not just the works themselves are indeed worthy of encyclopedia articles. Scholars even put together a print encyclopedia dedicated entirely to Dante, which you can examine at
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former president of the Dante
Society of America, criticized the game for its depiction of Beatrice, declaring, “Of all the things that are troubling, the sexualization and infantilization of Beatrice are the worst. Beatrice is the human girl who is dead and is now an agent of the divine. She is not to be saved by him, she is saving him. That’s the whole point! Here, she has become the prototypical damsel in distress. She’s this kind of bizarrely corrupted Barbie doll.” See Teodolinda Barolini, “An Ivy League Professor Weighs In: Expert View,” Entertainment Weekly 1091 (February 26, 2010): 79. Anyway, other reviews of the game include comments on the characters by actual professors: “
832:, we must consider these alternatives. If the article simply had "game" in its title, then I could maybe understand, but we absolutely should use it as a basis for a larger discussion of these characters from the epic poem and their depiction in multiple diverse forms of media. We do not have an unsalvageable situation by any means here and the question is more one of refocusing and revising than scrapping for eternity. On a side note, another complete game of the same name was also made, but never released and is discussed with regards to characters in I believe
728:: "Thus, use of may be regarded as pejorative, and when used in discussion about another editor's contributions, it can sometimes be regarded as uncivil." This nomination is more a reflection of the way the nominator works with other editors on wikipedia than the validity of the article itself. I know about "focus on the article not that editor" but there is also
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adaptations. The poem is one of the great works of literature, something mentioned in even the concise version of
Western Civilization textbooks and its influence on Western culture is enormous. There are indeed schorlarly and academic articles (look beyond Google to J-Stor and Academic Search Complete) that focus on the characters of the poem and so per
793:"This nomination is more a reflection of the way the nominator works with other editors" - No, it's more a reflection on the fact that you'll never find sources covering the video game versions of these characters. They're simply not notable enough for sources to examine and discuss them, unlike their counterparts from Dante's poem.
752:- regardless the article at best can reference the main characters, and even then there isn't significant coverage on the characters to do so, merely coverage on the game. There just isn't significant coverage on the video game versions of these characters. Both sources listed are for the characters from the poetry,
895:. Surely characters worthy of coverage in a print encyclopedia written by honest to goodness professors are worthy of inclusion on amateur paperless encyclopedia?! Indeed, whole books have been written just on the subject of Dante’s influence on subsequent aspects of popular culture (see for example
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Still looks like a delete/merge to me. There's hardly any sourced info, and what little there is could happily fit into the VG article. Again, the VG versions of these characters are simply not notable. There's no coverage of them. The only coverage anyone has been able to find mentions them only in
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per improvements made and sourcing added... with a special thanks to the nominator himself for his incredible work in putting focus to the article. While it might have been a questionable and unfocused article when he first saw the problems and brought it to AFD to get some critical attention, it has
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is a good review, but it does not focus on characters, it shows how game was influenced from the poem. This is a great piece of info for the main game article. The unreleased game section is notable previous attempt and suitable for main game article material; it is however unrelated to characters in
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the article per the above suggestions. Please note that many of the new sources elaborate much, much more than the brief quotations I have used. Even the
Entertainment Weekly article is several paragraphs long from which I drew the bit about how Columbia University Professor Teodolinda Barolini, a
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in some capacity. Despite the maybe not intentionally false or factually inaccurate claims above, the characters of the game are indeed covered in the published strategy guide and discussed at length in numerous print previews and reviews of the game, including ones that appeared in such non-video
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even before the game, film, action figure, and comic series came out. There is simply no justification for not developing the article further or even at worst merging out the now cited information from reliable print sources and from the words of actual academics and not just blogsters or game
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I doubt a separate article on the characters in the game only is a very good way to do it, so Expand & refocus to include the characters as shown in both the poem and the game, focusing of course on the poem not the game, but indicating the similarities and differences between them, and the
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There have been no remarks towards editors, neither has "cruft" been used derogatory. Cruft means it is obscure and specific to a certain niche. Obscure material can even become featured material. But it requires sources, which this article's material does not have. This article is not "well
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should not be a redlink. At worst it would redirect somewhere (such as the character section of the poem's article), but at best, it would be rewritten to focus on the characters of the poem (many based on real historical figures who are unquestionably notable) and its various subsequent
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Besides the main characters, all this list does is vaguely mention every identifiable character. The #Bestiary and #Damned souls should not be listed. I'm not sure how much the minor characters appear, but if they have one-time appearances, they are no more notable than boss fights.
955:, which requires retention of edit histories. Moreover, what that shows is that we do indeed have the basis for using this content in some manner other than deletion. Deletion is an extreme last resort measure taken only when ALL other options have been exhausted per
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User 172.130.131.65 is actually expanding the article beyond the scope of the video game. His concern with not creating a new article is the current article's contribution history. By the way, where is the list of Divine Comedy characters? I was unaware we had one.
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Actually, your own work, at the very minimum, has created something that might merit a redirect/merge as opposed to an outright deletion. But with the sourcing now in the article, I still applaud your efforts and will stick with a keep. You did a very decent job.
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Read
Teancum's post which I was replying to. He claimed the game wasn't notable enough for a character list, I pointed out it sold over a million copies. And yes, it does get ample coverage, since all high selling games released these days do get media coverage.
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are covering how the video game's depiction of the character differs from the poem, it means that the character depictions are notable by any reasonable definition of the term. Clearly we now have cited content in the article that is useful somewhere.
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pointed out the AfD is in relation to the characters article, not the game. I pointed out the parent article and animation article to cite that combined notability between the two still is not sufficient to cover the characters in a separate article.
819:. Moreover, it is incorrect to say they are just video game characters as the game has been adapted into a film as well as a comic book series. Now, we can debate whether the article should focus on the game or not, but we cannot deny that
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760:", on top of that you cite an essay and not Knowledge (XXG) policy. Essays are merely opinion. If you feel the article should be kept, great, but it needs the sources to back it up, and that's where the real issue lies. --
514:- merging any characters that are actually notable to the parent article. Dante's Inferno is not yet notable enough for a "list of" article, having had only one game and an animated film. More in-policy, there just isn't
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and trim per NOT#PLOT. Not opposed to a merger into the videogame if LENGTH applies, since the major reason for a standalone character list would be if the characters spanned multiple articles/primary source instances.
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only. WP does not mention authors in titles unless it is necessary. If you want to expand the article to the characters of the whole poem, then feel free to do so. As a side-note, term "notable" refers to WP policy on
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the separate article. And it does not even have sources for game characters, let alone comparison with Divine Comedy. Characters being based on other well-known characters do not automatically make them notable.
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per Dream Focus. As there seems to be considerable points of departure from the poem, I think we need a separate article unless we can find good sources comparing the game's characters with the original work.
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If something is notable, then it can have a list article for its characters. That's what always happens with a successful series, be it a game, an anime, comic book, whatever. Give it a character list.
709:. I would have supported a merge/redirect but the content is already there in the game article. If the Divine Comedy needs a character list then dandy, but this isn't it and was never intended to be it.
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character notability that is discussed here, not comic books, nor film, nor the poem itself. Your argument highlights the notability of the poem's characters, but video game characters do not
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Content fork mostly consisting of material which would be cut immediately (general enemies which are not 'characters' in any real sense), the remainder of which are covered more than amply in
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Reduced to cover the video game, as that is now all the article covers. There doesn't appear to be a list of characters in the Divine Comedy, at least according to the
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Very flattering, but ultimately there are only about five sourced sentences in the entire article. The rest is unsourced, basically plot summary from the VG article.
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Its not about the characters in the Divine Comedy, that list elsewhere. Its about the characters in the video game named Dante's
Inferno. I went ahead and renamed it
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If any of the sources cited are "great...for the main game article," anyone is welcome to merge it, but the article under discussion cannot then be deleted per
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and note on the talk page whatever appropriate merge information? I use a dynamic IP and just don't edit enough to justify getting an account. Thank you. --
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933:. If you have motivation and time, I suggest you create the latter article, rather than expanding video game character article beyond its scope. —
925:. This article is about the game, sourcing the characters from the poem does not verify or establish notability of video game characters. This is
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yes, there's a great deal more to be done; but we need to start somewhere. That an article is incomplete is not reason for deletion.
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It list the name of every character mentioned at all, as well as information about them. Are there any characters not listed there?
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particular. I cannot check printed sources, but ref 4 and 6 are most likely unrelated to the video game. Similarly, neither is
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Can you provide these sources for video game characters that you mention? Also, this article is specifically about the
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Coverage and acclaim make games notable, not sales figures. And this AfD is not about the game, but its characters. —
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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The PS3 version alone got 240,000 sales in pre-orders! There are currently 1.29 million copies sold worldwide
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Indeed, I was... Could someone who knows how to do so copy and paste my version of the article to
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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There is already a list of every character in the poem and detailed information about it at
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You should really add this material to the main game article, not it's character list.
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well referenced article? How in gods name can a fan of Dante be cruft, remember cruft:
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994:(video game)" because that is unnecessary disambiguation per policy - no other
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The article became more than about the video game characters after your edits.
1050:. If you must keep it, title it "Characters of Dante's Inferno (video game)."
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1091 (February 26, 2010): 79. When professors and mainstream magazines like
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come together to finally be something worthy of an encyclopdia. Good job!
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Sales figures, not number of titles in a series, make a game notable.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
471:. The article is restored back to covering video game only. —
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work has an article about its characters. The poem is called
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the video game characters. The nominator also points out "
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if expanded beyond video game character scope and sourced
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list of
Fictional elements-related deletion discussions
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characters, as is pointed out in its lead. It is the
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Cruft, no sources, no notability, delete or merge to
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for the video game versions of these characters. --
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1089:List of characters in Dante's Inferno (video game)
921:. You have added sources, but they do not source
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1176:List of cultural references in The Divine Comedy
1023:, and not to any other subjective definition. —
247:List of cultural references in The Divine Comedy
630:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Video games/Sources
339:list of video game related deletion discussions
889:Beatrice saves Dante…not the other way around
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732:which in the case by calling Dante "cruft"
392:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
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390:: This debate has been included in the
364:: This debate has been included in the
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1320:No, but a lack of notability is.
707:Dante's Inferno (video game)#Story
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1178:covers the characters already?
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1067:seems like the best option.
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990:is a video game. It was not "
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897:Dante, cinema, and television
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736:trumps focus on the article.
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277:Definitely, not combine with
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188:Dante's Inferno (video game)
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125:Find sources:
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665:FeydHuxtable
659:
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416:or at least
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46:no consensus
45:
43:
31:
28:
961:WP:PRESERVE
830:WP:PRESERVE
150:free images
1021:WP:NOTABLE
856:video game
852:video game
279:LoCCRinTDC
1052:Roscelese
957:WP:BEFORE
893:this link
826:WP:BEFORE
399:• Gene93k
373:• Gene93k
347:• Gene93k
1271:Schmidt,
1238:Schmidt,
1140:category
750:Response
734:WP:SPADE
730:WP:SPADE
620:VGChartz
499:Jclemens
213:Claritas
111:View log
1322:Geoff B
1286:Geoff B
1254:Geoff B
1180:Geoff B
1144:Geoff B
1073:Geoff B
1048:Comment
1016:Inferno
1004:Inferno
884:updated
860:inherit
795:Geoff B
762:Teancum
714:another
711:Someone
639:Teancum
524:Teancum
191:Geoff B
156:WPÂ refs
144:scholar
84:protect
79:history
1065:Rename
953:WP:MAD
703:Delete
512:Delete
469:Delete
414:Delete
205:Delete
128:Google
88:delete
50:Jayjg
1312:talk
1211:Focus
1126:KNOWZ
1110:Focus
1029:KNOWZ
939:KNOWZ
868:KNOWZ
836:. --
781:KNOWZ
738:Okip
688:KNOWZ
677:This
610:Focus
578:KNOWZ
563:Focus
518:from
477:KNOWZ
456:KNOWZ
429:KNOWZ
324:Focus
287:KNOWZ
268:Focus
235:talk
171:JSTOR
132:books
105:views
97:watch
93:links
16:<
1326:talk
1290:talk
1258:talk
1231:Keep
1184:talk
1166:talk
1148:talk
1130:TALK
1124:HELL
1077:talk
1056:talk
1033:TALK
1027:HELL
978:talk
959:and
943:TALK
937:HELL
929:not
906:talk
872:TALK
866:HELL
842:talk
828:and
812:Keep
799:talk
785:TALK
779:HELL
766:talk
722:Keep
692:TALK
686:HELL
669:talk
660:Keep
643:talk
582:TALK
576:HELL
528:talk
503:talk
494:Keep
481:TALK
475:HELL
460:TALK
454:HELL
450:. —
443:Keep
433:TALK
427:HELL
418:Trim
403:talk
388:Note
377:talk
362:Note
351:talk
335:Note
302:Keep
291:TALK
285:HELL
281:. —
195:talk
164:FENS
138:news
101:logs
75:talk
71:edit
1307:DGG
1071:?
1010:or
754:not
625:not
622:is
397:--
371:--
341:. (
230:DGG
207:as
178:TWL
113:•
109:– (
1328:)
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1168:)
1150:)
1142:.
1120:—
1091:.
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682:—
679:is
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253:D
233:(
216:§
193:(
182:)
174:·
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160:·
153:·
147:·
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135:·
130:(
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69:(
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