1142:
have time to go trawling through magazines and books just now, but as others have alluded to, the term definitely comes up in tables and lists of sizes and classes in magazines (which aren't freely online because they're commercial products of course), particularly I remember seeing it in an article which discussed the interesting phenomenon of size-creep, where model ranges get bigger over time for mostly marketing/competition reasons (e.g. the original Ford
Cortina being more like the size of a late Ford Escort.) I'll look it up at some point... and yes, these articles are reliable secondary sources, because the motoring press pretty much defines these segments. (The manufacturers doing so wouldn't be a secondary source anyway, right?) So in the meantime let's not get carried away with deletion, and go with the trimming of the article idea.
1719:— I wish it did but I really don't think it does, for two reasons: firstly it's a U.S. English term (Canadian too perhaps) and I expect it'd be unclear (to the point of being meaningless) to U.K. (and Australian, and so on) readers; sure, there could be redirects and carefully worded links from other articles, but it's just a not a word in use. Secondly, it's not actually precise enough to match the smaller segments (perhaps because traditionally the U.S. wasn't so interested in smaller segments?) But there is a difference between superminis and, er, minis. Pretty obviously. Hence the term
1191:. No matter how horrible I find the article -despite having written a considerable part of it-, it should be kept because the term exists. EuroNCAP doen't distinguish between A-segment (city cars) and B-segment (supermini) cars, but that doesn't mean European press and manufacturers ignore the difference. Delete the unreferenced content if you like, but the concept is as real as supercar or leisure activity vehicle. --
313:- please refrain from getting personal... As regards a "real thing", the point there is that this phrase is not a neologism, but rather a classification which is used to signify cars of a certain size/capability and for a certain market. I am highly confident sources can easily be linked and it's simply a matter of nobody having spent the time on it. –
788:, either. Doesn't mean the terms dont exist, or that we should pretend they dont exist by deleting the articles about them. The NYT and Fiat links show that, at 50+ years old, "city car" isnt a neologism. The other sources dont discuss them in any particular detail because its such a common term that they dont have to. The OP claimed it was
293:
The fact that the article is about a "real thing" does not justify keeping it: I am quite surprised to see that anyone who has been editing
Knowledge (XXG) for over two years can fail to realise that. On the other hand if the category is "mentioned all over the motoring media" then it should be easy
1381:
My problem is that this article defines a term with no backup. Most of the so-called references that people have cited in this discussion refer to cars that NCAP referes to as supermini's with no reference to a category called 'city car'. If you'd care to distinguish between cars that can be used
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there was no agreed definition. It's only in the last 10-15 years that magazines and individual manfacturers have needed to move beyond compact, midsize and large as comparative standards for size, but it's all guesstimates. In my view the current article is not worth salvaging because it refers to
1244:
If you click the Google news search, and Google book search at the top of the AFD, you can find plenty of times a vehicle was referred to as a city car. What
European countries specifically refer to it as this? Is it just the UK? If its called this in any non-English speaking nations, then you'd
1655:
This may possibly be inconsistency, but I don't see any evidence of hypocrisy. In fact I don't even see it as inconsistency: in both of those cases nobody put forward any serious reason for deletion. This case is quite different. The person trying to nominate it made a mistake, and another editor
1141:
Let's be clear: firstly, as you've just said we're looking for sources about the term; we're not looking specifically for a dictionary definition of the term. Or are we/you? And a second point: let's not jump to any conclusions just because Google doesn't come up with anything. Personally I don't
745:
TopGear call Toyota Prius the City Car of the Year. I'm not a car expert, but I'm pretty sure that Toyota Prius is a mid-size sedan that doesn't exactly fit any of the given definitions. As for
BusinessCar, Independent, Yahoo and Fiat, none of these sources discuss the subject in any significant
1207:
Ok. so what exactly -is- the concept? There's no distinquishing features between a supermini and a 'city car'. The Smart is considered a supermini.... its very amorphous and we shouldn't go around defining tersm. If anything this should be a redirect to a compact car article and a paragraph
472:, the article is unreferenced and make it seem as there really is such a standardized category. From what I understand that's not true, and the definition of a city car has changed over the years, recently it means a small car which has limited engine power or is electric propulsed and is
1345:
isn't a neologism, but it isn't a precise quantitative measure either, its just a common noun. City car was originally used as a term to describe any car used in the city, the size of the car wasn't an issue. By the 1960's magazines and newspapers used it to refer to small cars like the
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and the term itself doesn't have a clear definition, it really doesn't make any sense to keep an article that claims that it does. If "city car" is not an actual classification in
European auto circles, the article can either be turned into a redirect or be trimmed of all
439:- seems to be a term observed in community of interest with no attribution as claims and no reliable secondary sources. Article also cross references other articles that have the same problem and the references supplied are contradictory (This article states "
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1160:, if it does not have a reliably sourced definition, then it is not encyclopedic. Even with a definition this term may only belong in the Wiktionary i.e. there is nothing more you can reliably say about the term than "it is used and seems to mean
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Anyhow, this article represent an undocumented neologism. The term 'City Car' is unreferenced and doesnt exist. Unless some sources can be provided that anyone refers to this class of vehicle as a 'City Car' the article should be removed.
829:. The problem with the article is that it meticulously describes the comparative proportions, sizes, history and various crossovers of "standard city cars" without citing any sources. If most of its information is
163:
869:. The term has been around for decades, & is no less "loose" than "pony car", "muscle car". or "supercar", which all seem to vary depending on who's talking. It's a valid topic, even if ill-defined.
743:"Our definition of a top-class urban runabout is a model that fits in perfectly with a daily commute, is designed to slot into the tightest city spots and doesn’t make too many demands on your budget."
1475:
I think its easier to try find source for segments than this city car term, here is some urls using segments name, only need to find better source for segment classification and then rename this page
1723:-mini – obviously, "bigger/better than an Mini" – and so the smaller-than-a-supermini, a.k.a. city car segment needs to be distinguished from superminis in a way that subcompact doesn't clarify. –
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The problem with citing examples of "usage" is that it is not an acceptable method to verify a topic since it is creating an article by analysis, synthesis and original research (i.e.
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I note that since the last time I visited the NCAP site that as of 2009, they now only use four specific car classification terms: passenger car, MPV, off-roader, roadster and pickup.
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a category which is mentioned all over the motoring media, and if deleted would be an unhelpful omission since there are articles about many other car classification categories. –
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The problem with this article and with all the other articles about car classification is that we're dealing with marketing terms as precise and specific as big and little.
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as it is 'ill-defined' it is not wikipedias place to define it. Thats why its a neologism. Thats why it should be deleted or turned into a redirect to somewhere else.
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uses (AND DEFINES) the term way back in 1998. That's worldwide use of the term for more than one decade. Not a neologism, a real term is widespread use. 'Nuff said. -
349:- No reason to delete this, as it covers the well established A-segment below North American subcompacts and European superminis. However, it does need references. --
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741:
Talk about rubbish. THe NYT article initially puts the term in quotation marks and has no clear definition of the subject. Auto
Express uses its own definition:
1694:— If this article were deleted, what would the comparable article about the same topic (i.e., very small automobiles targeted for urban drivers) be named? Does
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will debut in the U.S. with an electric motor." Plenty of stuff to find out there if anyone is sincerely not convinced this is a type of car classification.
1570:. Although the article is a complete mess, I'll agree that there is a chance that it can be improved. MSN Encarta has a dictionary definition of the term (
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Then please find some source that defines the 'A-segment' and refers to it as a 'City Car'. Otherwise the article should be removed as a neologism.
253:— agree entirely that an unreferenced tag should be added, and the article improved with references. But the article is clearly about a "real thing",
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sources for the subject without any luck. As a
European car enthusiast, perhaps you could provide us with some further information about it? —
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which only has one (mostly ignored) reliable reference and a so-so reference, nither of which mention "City Car" BTW, has big problems.
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1607:. Whether you'd like to keep the article as is, or merge it into another one, I guess as long as that referral is kept, I won't mind.
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http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/02/1109&format=HTML&aged=&language=null&guiLanguage=en
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1513:. It may not be well sourced in it's current version, but my review of news sources shows that the term is in use in the media.
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1319:(1974, Vol 4, pp.383-6) describes city cars & claims for a distinction from the microcars of postwar Europe. It's not the
493:; Just because sources for classification for this class of car can't be found, doesn't mean this article should be deleted (
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therefore determine this is the definition). What is needed is a published source defining the concept, not using the word.
1164:". Google can find allot and miss allot, but when Google searches come up with zero reliable sources that says something.
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afd is closed when nominator has no positions. i just want to point that hypocracy out. thank you and have nice day.
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http://www.jato.com/PressReleases/Small%20car%20segment%20dominates%20europe%27s%20biggest%20markets%2016.11.2007.pdf
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I agree with the others. This should've been marked as unreferenced FIRST and then Afd. Go thru the process folks.--
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640:. Didn't you see people asking questions about the accuracy of that statement? I spent half an hour trying to find
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1599:— the only thing I can account for being part of North-American market is that here both European city cars and
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as if this also had some agreed, universally understood standard. It doesn't, it's just smaller than B-segment.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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I dont have any source that even suggest that the A-segment exists... except a couple of casual mentions.....
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strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, and sections of articles—without exception
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It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories
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Great! So find some of these mentions in the motoring media. Especially if they define what it means.
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article in 2005 (defines it, suggests first city car, notes that it is a well known concept in Europe)
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In German is called
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axe to the article and knocking it back to a stub. Its totally unreferenced and seems to be pure
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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As I said you dont understand that I was speaking the category not the article , clear? --
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material and made into a stub according to
Fountains of Bryn Mawr's earlier suggestion. —
202:, but I would suggest that an "unreferenced" tag be added to the article before deletion.
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It's easy to find sources for both, the question is do the terms mean anything specific?
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Then there is no need to delete it we can just rename it if thats big problem to you. --
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You dont even seem to understand whats the difference between category or article... --
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But due to the fact you don't have consensus, so far, it isn't going to happen. (
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Some more examples of the term's accepted use in at reliable secondary sources:
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helped him/her out, and then the original nominator did argue for deletion.
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European classification for automobiles equal to or smaller than superminis
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sources that discuss the subject directly and in a non-trivial manner? —
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you started the negative comments btw, dont try to be too clever... --
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I spent five minutes and got these. You must be rubbish at searching:
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About that, can anyone at least verify the article's first sentence (
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in the city and those that can't.... well lets not even go there.
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The concept of what is a city car is what a bicycle is in China. -
198:. I am completing the AfD process for this user and am officially
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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328:)? I'm having trouble finding any sources for this statement. —
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A new term does not belong in
Knowledge (XXG) unless there are
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not just sources which mention it briefly or use it in passing
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Fiat says that the 1959 Fiat 600 was "our first true city car"
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Habari (3rd nomination)
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Fifth Gear television programme reviews the city car segment
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http://fwd.five.tv/fifth-gear/best-in-class/top-3-city-cars
1002:, and NOT making negative comments about other editors per
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per IP174.37.186.98, Type932, et al. There are plenty of
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Actually... according to wikipedia's standards, it does.
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Incomplete AfD process. No reason given by the nominator,
48:. Though people agree that the article needs improvement.
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Whoops! Apparently the macro didn't complete correctly.
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Cousins Properties
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have to search for it in there to find any references.
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A city car (or urban car) is an European classification
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There may be a source. Piero Casucci, in Northey (ed)
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to find examples from reliable sources as references.
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569:. It could then be expanded from there, if possible.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Car_classifications
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list of Transportation-related deletion discussions
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1626:nominator has no position and afd goes on yet for
561:What may happen, maybe by me, is someone taking a
900:With this ideology we should delete almost whole
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1745:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1580:) isn't all that bad... I guess it's a start. —
594:this is one of car classifications main group --
1433:CAR magazine presents Aston Martin's "city car"
1428:Autocar magazine presents Vauxhall's "city car"
1423:Auto Express magazine chooses the best city car
1678:. references do not use term as defined here.
1529:the term is used by asiaone.com to describe a
1456:saw these examples of the word being used and
825:The discussed claim, however, is that it is a
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1041:: This debate has been included in the
1353:. However, as this 1970 ad for a 1971
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1700:cover the topic already or not? —
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1577:) and the mentioned NYT article (
764:Theres not clear definitions for
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412:here is one possible reference
1121:specifically about the term —
919:, and yeah a category such as
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921:category Car_classifications
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1156:Yes, We are looking for a
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963:" ......any questions?
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1738:Please do not modify it.
1525:is creating a city car.
1086:great! Go find us some.
447:shows the Euro NCAP as "
32:Please do not modify it.
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782:grand tourers
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1658:JamesBWatson
1652:
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1553:¢Spender1983
1523:Aston Martin
1519:London Times
1510:
1496:Mighty Antar
1474:
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1398:Mighty Antar
1367:Mighty Antar
1342:
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866:
836:unverifiable
826:
796:doesnt exist
795:
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690:
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672:Auto Express
671:
664:
591:
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473:
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448:
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346:
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296:JamesBWatson
290:
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53:
45:
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31:
28:
1339:Start again
1278:"The Smart
904:category --
802:—Preceding
786:sports cars
774:family cars
770:luxury cars
729:) has made
703:—Preceding
625:Google?? --
609:Sources? —
158:free images
1702:Loadmaster
1601:superminis
1531:Mitsubishi
1327:TREKphiler
1158:definition
873:TREKphiler
746:detail. —
54:Sandstein
1363:A-segment
1050:• Gene93k
778:Pony cars
766:supercars
638:sarcastic
478:RobertMel
449:Supermini
351:Vossanova
209:OOMSDAYER
1726:Kieran T
1343:City Car
1280:city car
1208:there.
1193:NaBUru38
1004:WP:CIVIL
804:unsigned
705:unsigned
679:Top Gear
665:NY Times
526:Regushee
495:Regushee
468:- While
416:Polargeo
316:Kieran T
260:Kieran T
221:Contribs
119:View log
75:City car
67:City car
1717:Comment
1692:Comment
1653:Comment
1624:Comment
1609:Shadiac
1597:Neutral
1582:Rankiri
1313:Comment
1072:Bearian
1000:WP:TALK
840:Rankiri
748:Rankiri
646:Rankiri
611:Rankiri
545:Rankiri
466:Comment
443:" and
330:Rankiri
311:Comment
291:Comment
200:neutral
164:WPÂ refs
152:scholar
92:protect
87:history
1676:Delete
1674:Also,
1542:Toyota
1517:, the
1485:Typ932
1357:shows
1107:Typ932
1023:Typ932
986:Typ932
957:WP:CAT
940:Typ932
907:Typ932
628:Typ932
597:Typ932
563:WP:BRD
474:green.
433:WP:NEO
429:Delete
381:Typ932
136:Google
96:delete
1721:super
1301:Focus
1264:Focus
996:clear
831:WP:OR
642:WP:RS
567:WP:OR
541:WP:RS
179:JSTOR
140:books
113:views
105:watch
101:links
16:<
1706:talk
1684:talk
1662:talk
1640:talk
1630:and
1613:talk
1586:talk
1557:talk
1546:Here
1535:here
1527:Here
1515:Here
1500:talk
1466:talk
1443:talk
1402:talk
1388:talk
1371:talk
1348:Mini
1321:best
1242:Keep
1233:talk
1225:Keep
1214:talk
1197:talk
1189:Keep
1170:talk
1162:this
1148:talk
1133:talk
1092:talk
1076:talk
1064:Keep
1054:talk
1039:Note
1012:talk
969:talk
951:is "
949:WP:V
929:talk
917:WP:V
892:talk
867:Keep
844:talk
812:talk
794:and
752:talk
727:talk
713:talk
650:talk
615:talk
592:Keep
575:talk
549:talk
530:talk
516:talk
499:talk
482:talk
457:talk
437:WP:V
435:and
431:per
420:talk
410:Keep
395:talk
368:talk
347:Keep
334:talk
300:talk
278:talk
255:i.e.
241:talk
217:Talk
172:FENS
146:news
109:logs
83:talk
79:edit
46:keep
1048:--
955:".
790:an
451:".
211:520
186:TWL
121:•
117:– (
1708:)
1664:)
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721:—
715:)
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182:·
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138:(
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115:)
77:(
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