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article 'Criticism of X' is no more pushing a POV than is the 'X' main article pushing the POV of X. The only thing that an article named 'Criticism of X' is advocating is the fact that there is enough notable criticism of X to warrant a discussion of it. That's all. In this particular case I find it extremely hard to believe that over almost 4000 years of history there has not yet been generated enough notable criticism of
Judaism to warrant an article on it, which is why I think that despite the article currently being mostly a stub it deserves a chance to live. (And yes, I am talking about good-faith criticism, not anti-semitic garbage). -
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it is a reality after all. Tom , I believe our understanding of a religon will not become complete unless we see how people have criticized it. There is a lot of hateful nonsense, misunderstanding there. True! But there is a positive side to the matter as well. Some people criticize another religon to satify their own hateful feelings. But there are some who are willing to hear the criticisms just to make life happier for themselves and others.
1497:. Arguments that such articles shouldn't exist because they are inherently POV are pure politically correct nonsense. There is nothing special about any religion per se that makes it immune to notable criticism, and once there is enough notable criticism of a subject, it deserves at first a Knowledge (XXG) section in the main subject article, and eventually perhaps a separate article. Me and Aminz have been busting our asses lately making
1244:
for "outside input", I'm not exactly certain to what you might be referring. "As seen above"? Please provide a relevant diff that supports your point. Regarding your apparently completely unrelated "point", what does this have to do with
Macedonian or Greek biases? The assertion that Jews are inherently biased against an article entitled "Criticism of Judaism" is perhaps
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people will be persuaded by different answers to those criticisms. I guess I can imagine how high-quality articles like what you describe could add a lot to our coverage of religion. I have doubts about our ability to do that here, but I think your approach, deleting most of it and starting over, is a legitimate way to go. If not that, maybe it could start as a section,
505:. But Judaising, as the article notes, is not a Jewish phenomenon, but a Christian phenomenon. The Muslim comments are unsubstantiated and the belittling of Mohammed is not really a criticism of Judaism, but a criticism of some within Judaism, and could be levelled against anyone who does not believe in Mohammed's divinity. Etc.
1243:
I fail to see how I've assumed bad faith regarding the creator of the article or the reasons why he created it. (You can see from the article's talkpage that I think the rationale was fundamentally flawed, but that's a very different thing from a failure to assume good faith.) As far as your desire
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I haven't said anything anywhere about deleting this article, nor about ignoring the fact that
Criticism of Judaism , might exist. I'm not sure of the relevance of the rest of your rambling dissertation... As for my needing to "feel…sorry for sounding sensitive", I'm not sure what you're referring
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Tom, why criticism, by nature, is a bad thing? Some criticisms can be quite helpful (but not all of them of course). All our progress is because of criticisms. But aside this, the articles like "criticism of ..." save many people's time who are trying to find such unbiased religous dialog. And also,
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I just want to point out that while there are some citations, as of right now the article says almost nothing. In an apparent effort to whittle it down to statements that approach "scholarly criticism, it has been reduced to eight sentences, and they aren't very long sentences. Even some of those
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That's a valid argument to make. One may argue that there is not yet enough criticism to warrant a separate article, or that perhaps the criticisms should better be incorporated as pieces into other articles. What I'm objecting to is the argument that 'criticism' articles are wrong on principle. An
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and expand. Responding to 6SJ7 - but that's what wikipedia is for. Someone starts an article and someone else runs with it. And someone else edits. And in a while, we've got a mature article. It's the village raising a child theory. :) If we have all the other criticism articles per Hshhh, I´m not
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and hmmm... desirous to delegitimize every Jewish comment in the discussion. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not categorize you as a pontificatory ignoramus, but your comment was wholly useless, and potentially indicative of a very disturbing worldview, one which seems to indicate that
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Writing such an article could be a great exercise for the writers. The replies to the criticisms would be the best part. It might also be an effective format for the presentation of basic facts about each religion. Although they all have answers, I guess rational criticisms do exist; and different
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I have issues even with the other
Criticism of ... articles. They all need to be recast, imho. This is because such criticism takes so many different forms, have different agendas, are directed at different things, and in the end bear no resemblance to each other. My guess is that every imaginable
835:
Exactly. Generic mullahs ranting against the 'Jews' or
Falwell ranting against the Muslims would be addressed in the 'anti' articles. Scholarly criticism of particular religions should go in the 'criticism' articles. Since religions make such broad (and frequently exclusive) claims on the human
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for any major religion is a lame concept. Any religion that's been around for a thousand years has its theological ducks in a row. All the criticism boils down to hateful nonsense, misunderstanding, or a different set of pre-logical choices. Parcel out the content to the appropriate articles,
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I have looked at some of those articles and I think each one has its own approach, so that none of them really are "precedent" for the existence of an article on "Criticism of..." anything else. For example, a few people on the talk page for "Criticism of atheism" say the article is too
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I usually assume good faith… its just I’ve had nothing but experiences regarding
Macedonian and Greek biases… so forgive me for wanting some outside input. Besides you haven’t exactly assumed good faith towards the original creator of the article who created this article as a stub,
401:. What this "article" is attempting to do, is to twist the views expressed in other articles and depict them as some sort of normal "criticism" of Judaism from outside the faith which is nothing less than hatemongering and is hence totally unacceptable. This is not the way to do it.
1367:
Heck, why not delete all the religion and philosophy articles? It's all unfounded, right? Oh wait, I remember, because reasoned discourse is important, even if it is of a delicate subject. So long as the subject is addressed openly, with due respect, and well--I say have at.
142:. I am afraid to see what would fill in the "stub" tags, perhaps some information about blood libel, charging of excessive interest, who controls the banks, the newspapers etc. etc. Unfortunately I know that some of that stuff is already in existing articles as well.
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Note: I am aware that there are "Criticism of " articles. The present article confuses Jews and
Israelis, etc. Needs a fresh start. The waffle about circumcision is laughable. If that is a criticism of Judaism, where do we stop? I will minimally support a merge with
1513:. This is a completely non-encyclopedic article, and I have a hard time imagining how an expansion would improve it. It's a hodge-podge of random negative thoughts, most of them having nothing to do with Judaism, and consisting almost entirely of
1315:, and you came along and said "can't we get some opinions from some non-Blacks", can you imagine the sh!tstorm that would raise? Your statement was just as inappropriate. It has nothing to do with sensitivity, and everything to do with decency.
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in current form. Understand article falls in category created by criticisms of various other religions. However, current article content doesn't offer or source serious theological criticism. Need a more scholarly approach for this sort of topic.
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Do you know of any, or is this just wishful thinking? You have yet to convince that the article will ever become something like that, and that it will not just be a magnet for people who will say e.g. "Jews didn't accept the divinity of Jesus".
279:" seems obvious as there should be enough encyclopedic content for all articles of that form. And a criticism of Judaism is not the same as anti-Judaism which seems to be a particular brand of Christian theological anti-Semitism.
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Jewish opinions on Jewish topics are only welcome as long as they're outvoted by non-Jews. Take it how you like it; like I said, it doesn't make you sound anti-semitic, to clarify tho, it makes you sound quite assinine.
1485:. While the article as it is is quite laughable, other major religions have a criticism article and this one should probably have to. Also, so it doesn't appear extra negative, a response section should be in order too.
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PS: The most "notable" criticisms of
Judaism have occurred in the last 250-300 years, and this has nothing to do with the length of time for which it's been around. They are in fact, criticisms and disputes by groups
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got AfD. Yes I know Jew is also a racial term... so maybe I should have said
Adherents of Judaism... but I didn't and sorry. P.S. I see nothing wrong with saying "can't we get some opinions from some non-Christians".--
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The "Criticism of.." articles (should!) examine the more scholarly criticism of a religion through the ages. What other (religious) scholars write about
Judaism would be very relevant and appropriate in this article.
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etc. It's pretty uninformative to include these in the debate - they might be good and worthwhile, or they might not. One can't say without doing detailed analysis and requesting comments on all of them.
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If it makes you feel better to think that my saying your remark doesn't make you sound "not anti-semitic" was a compliment, good for you. What your remark actually makes you sound is completely ignorant of
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was to be for the more "rabid, irrational" hatred of the Catholic Church "along the lines of anti-Semitism". Thus "Criticism of Judaism" is intended for "legitmate, debatable" opposition to Judaism whereas
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this article. Maybe if some prominent sources actually have something to criticise about Judaism rather than about individual Jews or Israel, then an article under this title could exist. This isn't it.
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probably don't make the grade of "scholarly criticism." Also, I have a strong suspicion that all of this information is already in other articles. This article just doesn't serve any purpose.
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Exactly. The question of whether an article should exist is a separate issue from whether or not it needs work. I would guess 90% of Knowledge (XXG) articles begin life essentially sucking. -
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unless the article can be rewritten so that it is a scholarly piece on theological debates and biblical criticism rather than a grab bag of anti-Semitic canards - an article called
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per nom. I concur that this article fails the test of neutral point of view, and I concur with those who propose strict scrutiny of similar criticism pages on other religions.
939:. A poorly written and scarcely researched facade without even the decency to state it's unwritten premise. The annoying charade of neutrality only adds to it's shoddiness.
638:, as much of the material here is not actual criticism of Judaism, but various anti-Jewish opinions held by assorted groups. I believe that material is properly covered by
1817:- The fact that there are other 'Criticism of' articles is pivotal. For balance we need all or none. This article needs fixing up but does now quote most of it sources,
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crack would piss people off... but we I wasn't talking about race here... A better example would be saying "can't we get some opinions from some non-Christians" if the
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because as this article stands right now it is just a half-baked crass theological diatribe against Judaism based on discredited Christian and Islamic
278:- if the current content is arbitrary it should be rearranged, the legitimacy of an article for "Criticism of <insert any major religion: -->
741:....or it will give the impression that Judaism the one "ism" which is above critisism on Knowledge (XXG). (Some) content could be merged from
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821:(Cartoons depicting stereotypes would be appropriate in such an article, IMO, as would any expression of irrational, emotional feelings.)
424:. The concept of an article that legitimately documents criticism of Judaism is not in and of itself problematic. But this is just rubbish.
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and cleanup (or maybe rewrite). I don't get it. I'm Jewish, and there's bound to be stuff to criticize about my religion. Also, we have
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editing for NPOV and scholarship rather than opinions. Possibly appropriate redirects (or ??) from articles with related content (e.g.
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should also be deleted, although that at least confines itself largely to slagging off the religion as it is perceived by the West.
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per khoikhoi. Article is of a worthy subject, it's just just unreadable in its current form so a rewrite would be appropriate.
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I realize the article looks sh!t right now…. And needs to be fixed – but isn’t deleting this article… ignoring the fact that
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that actually cites Aquinas or Augustine could be useful but this article is just a grab-bag of unsourced and unfocussed OR.
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article. After some discussion, it became evident that there should be such an article and I so created this article. See
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article doesn’t have nothing in it. I’m sorry for sounding like an idiot and I hope you are sorry for sounding sensitive.--
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critique is contained within other articles - it's hard to see what we'd accomplish by trying to lump it all together. --
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without the article istself being critical of Judaism because that wouldn't be a NPOV. Please note this isn't the first
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section in the Judaism article. What represents anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic opinion in the article should be removed.
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At least let the anti-semites understand one another. Greasy, I'll explain it to you. SuperDT was being sarcastic.
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with this article as they are bound to cover the same stuff. NPOV this article if neccesary so it is about actual
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is for "legitmate, debatable" opposition to the doctrines, practices and actions of the Catholic Church whereas
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Forgive me for sounding Anti-Semetic here but... shouldn't we garner some opinions of some more non-Jews?--
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As long as a page supports conversation among people from different religons, I will strongly support it.
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per nomination; additionally much if not all of this material is covered in other articles, for example
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article, why not a Criticism of Judaism article? Or do you delete-happy-biggots feel Judaism is not a
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to. I sound "sensitive" for regarding your remarks as wholly inappropriate? If this were an AfD for
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really here, we should have this article... else, we come across as biased in the other direction.
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1434:. Delete only if all the articles on the criticism of other religions are deleted as well. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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personal essay, original research as evinced by the lack of any source citations whatsoever.
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experience, it is all the more important that good-faith criticism of them not be stifled. -
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only relevant parts: mention of deicide should already be present in an article on
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1780:- a complete ragbag of bits and pieces. At best, wipe contents and start again.--
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per nom. Confusing hodge-podge - not even clear what it's about and mostly OR. --
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if there is any real content on this subject the article can be recreated.
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is intended to describe "rabid, irrational" hatred of Jews and Judaism. --
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for the full record of the discussion. There is a partial consensus that
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The poor Jews suffered the holocaust, do they really deserve this? =/
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On another note tho, I wouldn't say "anti-semitic" is what you sound.
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214:. This is the wrong site to create a dumping ground for Jew-slaggings.
1473:. Delete only if other religions criticism articles also deleted. ---
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1393:; I'm new and don't yet grasp the relationships between articles).
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and its related articles. An article organized along the lines of
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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along with Criticism of Islam/Christianity/Mormonism etc. --
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But he still said Delete... so I didn't take that chance.--
1518:" articles are like this, then they should be deleted too.
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Generally it looks as if the "Anti-.." articles deals with
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1 Jew in the history of mankind. Fully and obviously fails
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religion and thus not deserving of a criticism article? --
1385:(consistent with parallel pages for other religions) with
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without POVingly critiquing Judaism, its okay. I mean the
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Talk:Criticism of the Catholic Church#Criticism of Judaism
1053:. And yes, I do support this approach for all the other
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Unless refs ar provided and it becomes a bit less POV.
1108:. Perhaps it could be expanded into an article titled
1182:If it makes you feel better to take it that way...
1560:. Why can't these be accomodated in articles like
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1336:"can't we get some opinions from some non-Blacks"
1285:exists. As long as the article is actually about
1875:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1517:. If the other "Criticism of <religionx: -->
1075:All this world needs is a place in which people
1334:Ooops I confused you for someone else. Yes the
1079:and share their view points with each other. --
8:
1252:Jews are biased is at least a violation of
1662:surely the article doesn't "do" anything?
705:. If this is deleted we must also delete:
1049:, or maybe we should just have one page,
1045:redirect the title to wherever; maybe to
366:Criticism of Judaism by idol worshipers.
1240:… and why he created it… as seen above.
662:, re-write as necessary as described by
1641:. But it might as well be blanked. See
1297:article doesn’t repeat itself. And the
1293:article isn’t actually racist. And the
1645:which criticises Islam fantastically.
182:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg
1501:informative and NPOV, for example. -
1256:, if not bordering on a violation of
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1201:What way? What are talking about?--
1051:Criticism of other people's beliefs
758:Second comment: taking a look at:
691:Theologicial criticisms of Judaism
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1093:. It could lead to good results.
329:article and someone asked on the
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343:Criticism of the Catholic Church
327:Criticism of the Catholic Church
1420:user:Hshhh, I´m not really here
1248:, but without actual evidence,
1660:criticises Islam fantastically
519:nonsense, not worthy of wiki.
399:Category:Muhammad and the Jews
387:Christianity and anti-Semitism
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1114:Criticism of American Culture
650:would be more appropriate. --
44:The result of the debate was
1091:Replies to common criticisms
1731:article deleted too then?--
1061:; we should keep that one.
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1467:Hshhh, I´m not really here
1104:Tom, Agree with you about
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751:Hshhh, I´m not really here
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121:23:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
111:09:24, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
88:23:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
53:08:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
1868:Please do not modify it.
1566:Judaism and Christianity
747:Critical historical view
333:why there wasn't also a
32:Please do not modify it.
1727:I suppose you want the
1110:Criticism of Television
1106:Criticism of Family Guy
1059:Criticism of Family Guy
797:(Seperate article from
395:Islam and anti-Semitism
264:Criticism of Family Guy
136:History of Christianity
724:Criticism of Mormonism
443:Move to fix it then.--
321:with this article per
1574:Judaism and Modernity
729:Criticism of Hinduism
256:Criticism of Hinduism
1287:Criticism of Judaism
1283:Criticism of Judaism
880:This is almost pure
734:Criticism of atheism
335:Criticism of Judaism
260:Criticism of Atheism
244:Criticism of Judaism
59:Criticism of Judaism
925:I never said Keep.
819:against a religion.
640:Persecution of Jews
618:. Irredeemably OR.
46:KEEP (no consensus)
1643:Criticism of Islam
1530:; unencyclopedic -
1499:Criticism of Islam
1412:user:Greasysteve13
1077:talk to each other
799:Criticism of Islam
772:Anti-Protestantism
709:Criticism of Islam
648:Criticism of Islam
572:Kuratowski's Ghost
293:Criticism of Islam
216:Criticism of Islam
203:£€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€
1562:Islam and Judaism
1515:original research
854:toward atheism.
782:Anti-Christianity
561:per IZAK and nom
204:
196:per nominator. --
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1792:- If there is a
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1004:Keep but rewrite
994:per khoikhoi. --
992:Keep but rewrite
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767:Anti-Catholicism
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347:Anti-Catholicism
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1873:deletion review
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1495:Keep and expand
1483:Keep and expand
1446:- POV title. --
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1055:Criticism of...
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521:Kempler video
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352:Anti-Semitism
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154:per nom. --
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1676:per Homey.
1673:
1659:
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1557:
1532:
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1527:
1510:
1494:
1482:
1466:
1465:as per User
1462:
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1407:
1398:
1394:
1391:Anti-Judaism
1386:
1382:
1378:
1377:
1335:
1249:
1245:
1139:
1127:
1118:Shirahadasha
1095:Tom Harrison
1090:
1076:
1072:
1063:Tom Harrison
1054:
1047:Christianity
1042:Criticism of
1041:
1033:Shirahadasha
1027:
1015:
1003:
991:
976:
955:Kari Hazzard
949:
936:
910:
906:
905:
893:
877:
865:
851:
823:
815:
813:
805:Anti-Judaism
795:Islamophobia
757:
743:Anti-Judaism
740:
702:
686:
682:
681:
676:
675:
659:
635:
631:
615:
603:
594:as per nom.
591:
582:as per nom.
579:
570:Jew baiting
567:
558:
546:
537:
533:
528:
516:
503:Anti-Judaism
498:
486:
477:as per norm
474:
460:
456:
421:
414:Gilgamesh he
410:
378:
363:
319:Anti-Judaism
314:
310:
288:
275:
240:Anti-Judaism
235:
231:
227:
211:
193:
177:
163:
151:
131:
98:Anti-Judaism
74:
63:
45:
43:
31:
28:
1704:per nom. --
1370:MerricMaker
1112:or perhaps
1018:per nom. --
952:per above.
868:per above.
529:Weak Delete
1819:BlueValour
1706:Satori Son
1647:Skinnyweed
1568:, or even
1396:Deborahjay
1295:repetition
1116:. Best, --
791:Anti-Islam
426:Briangotts
220:Grace Note
180:per nom.-
168:SlimVirgin
166:. POV OR.
50:TigerShark
1729:Holocaust
793:redir to
784:redir to
745:and the
620:Batmanand
489:per nom.
467:rant-line
432:(Contrib)
331:Talk Page
250:article:
248:Criticism
140:Judaizers
1678:CJCurrie
1627:Batamtig
1605:Batamtig
1583:Batamtig
1558:Question
1471:Musicpvm
1436:Musicpvm
1387:rigorous
1040:I think
1020:Batamtig
1008:Canderra
981:Dpbsmith
852:positive
507:jnothman
462:Blnguyen
302:Khoikhoi
198:PinchasC
77:eleted.
1853:Merzbow
1844:Janet13
1782:Runcorn
1718:SuperDT
1657:Comment
1619:haskala
1595:Merzbow
1503:Merzbow
1450:Sunholm
1299:nothing
1238:Richard
1140:Comment
1132:Dauster
977:Delete,
967:contrib
838:Merzbow
683:Abstain
636:rewrite
596:Shlomke
584:Ayinyud
551:Leifern
459:POV OR.
356:Richard
156:Rjm656s
118:Leifern
71:WP:NPOV
1778:Delete
1765:Delete
1714:Delete
1702:Delete
1686:Delete
1674:Delete
1664:Arniep
1615:within
1528:Delete
1520:Jayjg
1511:Delete
1475:Faisal
1453:(talk)
1444:Delete
1424:Inahet
1418:, and
1379:Delete
1313:Nigger
1291:racist
1258:WP:NPA
1254:WP:AGF
1250:saying
1213:WP:AGF
1128:Delete
1028:Delete
1016:Delete
984:(talk)
950:Delete
946:shykee
941:Shykee
937:Delete
911:delete
894:Delete
878:Delete
870:Yid613
866:Delete
687:Delete
677:Delete
668:Atlant
664:Eliyak
652:Eliyak
616:Delete
608:Jon513
604:Delete
592:Delete
580:Delete
568:Delete
563:Nesher
559:Delete
547:Delete
517:Delete
491:Pecher
487:Delete
475:Delete
457:Delete
429:(Talk)
422:Delete
411:Delete
379:Delete
364:Rename
281:Frikle
212:Delete
194:Delete
178:Delete
164:Delete
152:Delete
132:Delete
67:WP:NOR
1688:==-==
1081:Aminz
996:Aminz
927:Homey
915:Homey
882:WP:OR
695:Homey
534:Gizza
499:Merge
315:Merge
236:Merge
16:<
1839:Keep
1831:6SJ7
1815:Keep
1806:talk
1798:real
1790:Keep
1694:Talk
1690:רח"ק
1639:Keep
1625:. --
1547:siηi
1535:ßott
1469:and
1463:Keep
1432:Keep
1422:. --
1410:per
1408:Keep
1383:Keep
961:talk
913:per
907:Keep
898:Olve
856:6SJ7
817:bias
703:Keep
660:Keep
646:and
634:but
632:Keep
624:Talk
403:IZAK
397:and
389:and
383:POVs
368:ems
317:the
313:and
311:Keep
295:and
289:Keep
276:Keep
238:the
234:and
228:Keep
186:Talk
144:6SJ7
138:and
107:T@lk
84:T@lk
69:and
1572:or
1487:PHF
1317:Tom
1262:Tom
1218:Tom
1184:Tom
1156:Tom
918:Zeq
886:Avi
266:.--
232:Fix
102:JFW
79:JFW
1808:)
1692:|
1621:,
1603:--
1581:--
1564:,
1414:,
1260:.
1031:--
970:)
964:|
666:.
622:|
465:|
262:,
258:,
254:,
230:,
200:|
184:|
104:|
81:|
48:.
1804:(
1541:e
1325:r
1321:e
1270:r
1266:e
1226:r
1222:e
1192:r
1188:e
1164:r
1160:e
958:(
801:)
680:,
75:d
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