1194:. This discussion is grossly unsatisfactory, and isn't a reasonable basic for any solid conclusion. A GScholar search turns up nontrivial results, and the commentary I see there on his books suggests standing in his field indicating notability. But nobody's really analyzing matters like that, which should be central. But the article proponents aren't Wikipedians, for the most part, and aren't making the sort of arguments that ordinarily suffice to keep an article. The opponents are, frankly, overreacting to this, and responding more to failure to conform to Wikipedian social norms than the substantive arguments. I suspect it would be best to close this as "no consensus" aand let things simmer for a few months, in hopes informed content editing would make things clearer.
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considered high-risk for a seismic catastrophe. Even if you do not understand the language of the TV piece - you can still get a translator - please take a moment and just see with your own eyes the person (I think
Scarlat was in his eighties at the time !) , the explosion simulating the destruction caused by an earthquake and then the mannequins on the floors, that simulate school children during such a catastrophe. This 'cage' experiment (appears on YouTube from different TV channels and perspectives), was considered a huge engineering success (just watch how many people including reps from IDF, the Jerusalem mayor and others were present, interviewed, etc) - is only one of many examples of this person capabilities in civil engineering.
1389:. As the subject is an engineer, WoS probably gives a better assessment of his research work. A targeted query ("AUTHOR: (scarlat a*) Refined by: RESEARCH AREAS: (CONSTRUCTION BUILDING TECHNOLOGY OR ENGINEERING) Timespan: All years. Search language=Auto") shows 8 papers with citation counts: 3, 1, 1, 0, 0, ... As for books, WorldCat shows his "Approximate methods in structural seismic design" is held by ~150 institutions and that he has several other books in the Romanian language, whose holdings are in the single digits. Finally, we do not conventionally accept "trivial mentions" and such, even in mainstream periodicals, as demonstration of notability. Unless there's something else we're missing, this analysis seems fairly conclusive.
566:"News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact " (Knowledge (XXG) rules) The news piece on the outstanding "cage" experiment is referred on several YouTube links, and I understand that YouTube may not be considered a "reliable source" - BUT - it was actually aired on the Israeli National TV channel 2. According to Knowledge (XXG) the Israeli channel 2 is respectable and reliable source and it has its own Knowledge (XXG) page
557:: "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." (Knowledge (XXG) rules) All the books published by Scarlat have been vetted by the reputable peer-reviewed sources. These books have NOT been self-published. Thus, the books should be considered "reliable secondary sources".
1012:. The only verifiable news source mentioned in haaretz.com does not mention him at all. I agreed with nominator that all the reference does not support claim for notability. Also, taking into account he is supposed to be notable in Israel, I can confirm, there is nothing in Hebrew that may help to establish the notability. All articles I found either obituary or links to lists of conferences participants or advertisement of company he worked with.
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624:- Appears the above two editors have a COI with this person (and serious question about sockpuppeting.) As nominator has pointed out, none of the numerous sources in the article are sufficient, as they are either not reliable or do not discuss this person in depth. Article reads like a memorial page by a friend or family member.
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I completely agree that engineers can be notable without publishing journal articles: I checked WoS only because this path was being debated above, but it's clearly a dead-end. As for books, it is difficult to see how a single book having ~150 holdings demonstrates notability. This is probably pretty
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Can you please mention which references specifically quoted above are "not reliable or do not discuss this person in depth"Â ? Is it the whole chapter in the book (#1)Â ? Are the books
Scarlat wrote not reliable ? Is the Doctor Honoris Causa from a non-reliable source ? Is the TV piece on national TV -
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Can someone please explain why aren't these references I've mentioned - considered "not reliable"Â ? Why aren't the books authored considered "reliable"Â ? Is it because of the language - being not
English ? How is a Doctor Honoris Causa - considered not relevant ? Not noticeable ? doesn't speak about
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There are some references on the page that are not in
English - in Romanian and some are in Hebrew. I'd suggest before deleting the page on Adrian Scarlat, you ask other Knowledge (XXG) editor colleagues, fluent in these languages to actually take a look and let you know whether these references are
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The "cage' experiment detailed on the
Israeli TV (ref. 6 & 7) was considered revolutionary in its engineering principles and being relatively not-expensive, is being considered for implementation by the Jerusalem municipality at the moment - in the city and other areas in the Jordan valley - all
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Last year I was one of those that participated in a special congress "in memoriam" of 2 noteworthy civil engineers - Stern & Scarlat. There were more than 200 attendees at this one day professional congress. I can assure you - the
Israeli Association of Civil Engineers does not bestow this kind
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Deceptively sourced article. References are to YouTube, Scribd, dependent sources, or show that the subject has written some books. However, not a single source discusses the subject (or his books) in-depth (or even in-passing). Some references do not even mention the subject. No evidence that this
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The above together with the fact that Adrian
Scarlat was the past Chairman of the Israeli Association for Earthquake Engineering and the de-facto creator of the Israeli Standard for new and existing buildings seismic engineering - should be enough for Knowledge (XXG) to have a page mentioning the
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4. Adrian
Scarlat appeared on Israeli TV national news (reference #6 and #7) with an outstanding engineering solution (named 'Cage') for an acute earthquake engineering problem (saving kids' lives in schools during an earthquake) - it is my understanding that this fact (appearing on a National TV
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2.The document image of the
Awarded 1999 “Distinguished Civil Engineer” by the Association of Engineers and Architects, Israel - which by itself should suffice to document Adrian Scarlat was an exceptional person in the profession of civil engineering - as considered by the Israeli Association of
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It is a systematic glitch--without using quotes it looks also for articles with authors where one authors name contains Adrian and another
Scarlet, and then goes on to list articles where the two words appear anywhere. Additionally, using quotes and the full names "Adrian Scarlet" will almost
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1. The document image of Doctor Honoris Causa - Universitatea Tehnica de Constructii Bucuresti, Romania 2007 - this by itself should suffice to document Adrian Scarlat was an exceptional person in the profession of civil engineering as considered by the University of Bucharest,
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Dr. Scarlat was truly an outstanding person in the domain of civil engineering in general and seismic engineering specifically in Israel, Romania, Kenya, Iran, Turkey, Japan and numerous other countries and he is missed by many of his former students and colleagues. Myself
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Then there is the Doctor Honoris Causa bestowed by his alma mater - The Technical University of Bucharest, Romania. As mentioned in this discussion by mayscarlat - this fact alone should be enough evidence for the Knowledge (XXG) editors about Scarlat worthiness as a
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3. The special Congress in the Memory of Two Notable Civil Engineers (Scarlat and Stern) that have recently passed away (Israeli Association of Civil Engineers April 2015 - 265 attendees- published in the Israeli professional journal of Civil Engineers in August
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not under WP:PROF. WP:PROF is met by showing someone an expert in their field, which is usually shown for scientists by the citation to their published work. If they are high enough, nothing else is needed. WP:PROF is explicitly an alternative to the GNG.
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Notability is established by the Romanian and Hebrew references. True the Haaretz reference is only mentioning the involvement of Israeli engineers in Iran and thus maybe this ref should be removed. Other than this references are reliable and do support
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The Doctor Honoris Causa (awarded to Scarlat by the University of Bucharest) is by definition the result of a "peer-reviewed" process and the University of Bucharest Romania is an accredited university with its own page on Knowledge (XXG) at
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5. Adrian Scarlat was mentioned in a whole chapter in a book titled "Personalities in Romanian Civil Engineering" - ref #1 - this by itself should suffice noting Adrian Scarlat was an exceptional person in the civil engineering
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While I admit I was asked by family members that have submitted the original page to Knowledge (XXG) to intervene on his behalf and dissuade you from deleting the page - it is actually an honour for me to 'testify' on Scarlat
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a person in depth ? Isn't that a contradiction in terms ? Why the national Israeli TV channel 2 considered "not reliable source" ? Why is the Israeli Association of Civil Engineering considered "not reliable" ?
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not reliable source ? Or maybe there are difficulties in translating Romanian / Hebrew languages into English language the issue ? If that is the case I found Google Translator to do a great job in this regard.
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Even doing it your way the citations are totally inadequate. We normally look for (for starters) around 1000 cites, although that will vary vary with field of study. The hit you give is to something written
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I would like to attract your attention to the fact that the books referenced are NOT self published (CRC, Taylor & Francis, etc.) - thus should be considered good "secondary sources" by Knowledge (XXG).
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966:(English) The news and Doctor Honoris Causa are not GS. The Israeli TV Channel 2 News reference should be considered reliable and the Doctor Honoris Causa photocopy should be considered reliable.
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I made a major cleanup of the article. Engineers can be notable without publishing jjournal articles but it tends to rely on awards and book publications. I think the books show notability.
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Notability is well-established. He is indeed mentioned in Haaretz as a civil engineering expert and helped to write the building standards in the sphere of earthquake stability. See here
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typical for a mainstream engineering text and I think it'd be a different discussion if he had several such books. But, for single texts, notability (to me) is something more like : -->
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52:. There would be scope for a relist, but I think the debate is so hopelessly messed up by the socking that it would benefit more from a clean start to the AFD. There is therefore
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The Association of Engineers and Architects awarded Adrian Scarlat the 1999 “Distinguished Civil Engineer”. This association is by definition a "peer-reviewed" group of people (
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Then there are all the books Scarlat actually authored: some are in Romanian and some are in English ... These are not self published books and not Google Search references:
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at best as the article (I went through it) and I still found it questionable for noticeably better thus I have to suggest Deleting for now and then Draft if needed.
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Thus, to summarize the above - according to Knowledge (XXG) rules - the most important achievements and awards of Scarlat are supported by "reliable sources".
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The Congress in memoriam mentioned above, by the same association - is by definition "peer-reviewed" and thus should be considered a reliable source.
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Saying that "not a single source discusses the subject or his books in-depth or even in-passing" - is just not true nor fair to the subject at hand.
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1032:. No reason to delete an article about a person who has made notable contributions in his field just because someone claims to "know" him.--
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I oppose deletion since I knew Adrian Scarlat and I took the time and actually read the Knowledge (XXG) policies on bios of deceased people.
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1053:: The link you provide is what we call an "in-passing mention", not the in-depth coverage that is needed for GNG/BIO/ACADEMIC. --
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Running the search without enclosing the name in quotes generates a lot of spurious hits, but also legit hits, like this one
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always be incomplete because some articles will have only the initials. -- the best search is generally "A Scarlet".
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If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
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I didn't find any relevant reference in Hebrew. Could you please post the references you found here? Thank you
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Hope the above is enough evidence that Adrian Scarlat is a person worthy of being mentioned in Knowledge (XXG).
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http://www.amazon.com/Approximate-Methods-Structural-Seismic-Design/dp/0419187502/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Duplicate vote struck. Each editor can vote only once, but can comment as much as they like.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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The book referenced as #1 ref - is not a Google Search. In this book which can be found at
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The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006.
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The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006.
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http://www.agir.ro/carte/personalitati-romanesti-in-constructii-editia--a-ii-a-110526.html
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http://www.amazon.com/Statica-construct%C3%8C-iilor-structuri-nedeterminate/dp/B0007J4QJK
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My GS search based on the link above shows negligible citations. What did yours give?
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However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
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Please do NOT delete page. The page was modified to reflect the following facts:
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Notability is well supported by the references (Romanian, Hebrew and English)
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News show) is enough for noting that a person is of biographical value
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that establish these claims and discuss the subject in depth (see
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1385:. This person is not notable under conventional thresholds of
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there is a whole chapter dedicated to Scarlat (Noticeability)
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list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions
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I oppose the deletion of this page due to allegedly lack of
258:(agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments,
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Association_of_Engineers_in_Israel
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of honor to other engineers it doesn't think as "worthy".
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among Knowledge (XXG) contributors. Knowledge (XXG) has
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Knowledge (XXG):Sockpuppet investigations/Mayscarlat
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784:list of Architecture-related deletion discussions
511:All this may very well be true. However, we need
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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580:https://en.wikipedia.org/University_of_Bucharest
804:list of Technology-related deletion discussions
439:With your permission I'd like to digress a bit:
1355:. Neotoren, DanielRobinson65, and Akitof are
278:Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected
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844:list of Romania-related deletion discussions
842:Note: This debate has been included in the
822:Note: This debate has been included in the
802:Note: This debate has been included in the
782:Note: This debate has been included in the
762:Note: This debate has been included in the
824:list of Israel-related deletion discussions
570:. Thus the news piece should be considered
568:https://en.wikipedia.org/Channel_2_(Israel)
54:no prejudice against immediate renomination
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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668:. I suspect the current article was
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377:Thanks for your consideration.
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866:. GS citations don't make
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572:reliable secondary sources
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514:reliable secundary sources
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1364:socks of Mayscarlat. See
591:reliable secondary source
1463:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
890:What is a GS citation ?
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666:Draft:Adrian Scarlat
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1431:Timoshenko's
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1191:
1122:— Preceding
1117:
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1009:
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701:— Preceding
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312:sockpuppetry
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50:no consensus
49:
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31:
28:
1157:) has made
1104:) has made
1078:notability.
1000:) has made
916:) has made
736:) has made
527:WP:ACADEMIC
500:) has made
462:reputation.
402:) has made
371:profession.
212:WP:ACADEMIC
169:free images
1443:Agricola44
1391:Agricola44
1329:WP:SCHOLAR
1255:Xxanthippe
1214:Xxanthippe
1055:Randykitty
930:Xxanthippe
872:Xxanthippe
868:WP:Prof#C1
531:Randykitty
392:Mayscarlat
379:Mayscarlat
246:discussion
216:Randykitty
1468:talk page
1405:Weak keep
1362:Confirmed
1249:him, not
848:• Gene93k
828:• Gene93k
808:• Gene93k
788:• Gene93k
768:• Gene93k
672:from it.
604:Sincerely
468:included.
302:canvassed
296:canvassed
255:consensus
37:talk page
1470:or in a
1155:contribs
1136:contribs
1124:unsigned
1102:contribs
998:contribs
990:Neotoren
977:Neotoren
924:Look at
914:contribs
906:Neotoren
893:Neotoren
734:contribs
726:Neotoren
715:contribs
707:Neotoren
703:unsigned
607:Neotoren
498:contribs
490:Neotoren
477:Neotoren
400:contribs
355:Romania.
334:username
328:{{subst:
322:username
316:{{subst:
306:username
300:{{subst:
290:username
284:{{subst:
128:View log
58:User:DGG
39:or in a
1441:, etc.
1387:WP:PROF
1192:Comment
1051:Comment
1034:Geewhiz
926:WP:Prof
549:Comment
509:Comment
298:users:
175:WPÂ refs
163:scholar
101:protect
96:history
1383:Delete
1325:WP:GNG
1321:Delete
1094:Akitof
1081:Akitof
1010:Delete
864:Delete
747:clpo13
674:clpo13
670:copied
651:wister
647:wister
639:Delete
622:Delete
525:, and
523:WP:BIO
519:WP:GNG
208:WP:BIO
206:meets
147:Google
105:delete
62:Stifle
1437:, or
1433:, or
1415:talk
1370:Bbb23
1315:talk
1281:talk
1251:about
529:). --
363:2015)
276:Note:
190:JSTOR
151:books
135:Stats
122:views
114:watch
110:links
16:<
1447:talk
1395:talk
1374:talk
1338:5969
1335:Onel
1259:talk
1236:talk
1218:talk
1200:talk
1179:talk
1151:talk
1132:talk
1114:Keep
1098:talk
1085:talk
1073:Keep
1059:talk
1038:talk
1027:Keep
1018:talk
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934:talk
910:talk
897:talk
876:talk
852:talk
832:talk
812:talk
792:talk
772:talk
752:talk
730:talk
711:talk
692:KEEP
679:talk
656:talk
630:talk
611:talk
535:talk
494:talk
481:talk
414:Keep
396:talk
383:talk
347:Keep
220:talk
210:(or
183:FENS
157:news
118:logs
92:talk
88:edit
66:talk
1410:DGG
1368:.--
1310:DGG
1276:DGG
1169:Hi
330:csp
326:or
318:csm
286:spa
260:not
197:TWL
126:– (
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