1470:........ Six years ago, I was sitting at my desk when MSNBC popped open a new window on my desktop, interrupting my work. What I saw was truly horrible. People were jumping out of windows, to their death, to avoid being burned to death. As I continued to watch these awful images over the next day or so, I accepted the messages that came with them, uncritically. Fanatical members of some extremist cult had crashed airliners into buildings. I believed every bit of it. I was very sad. Some human beings had grown up in a culture in which someone couldd come along and brainwash them into "dying for Allah." Then, as quickly as they had come, the awful images stopped appearing on television, but the conversation continued. A lot of people were angry. Some fastened American flags on their cars and went speeding up and down business streets as if their violating the law would somehow revenge America's honor. ( When something similar happened in Germany, ending on August 31, 1939, the government announced that the state sponsored terrorism from Poland would end, and the next morning WWII began. We learned about the deception at the Nuremberg trials. The Germans had been attacking themselves nearly thirty times, blaming it on Poland, and their troops rolled into Poland with 2,000 tanks certain that they were defending their country from terrorists. After the war, Americans called the German experience "mass hypnosis.") ......... A few years later, I came across other interpretations of the 9/11 events. I met an older woman who hadn't been hypnotized at all. She saw the buildings fall and thought "so that's why had to steal that election." She may or may not have been correct in her assessment, but it was her own assessment, rather than mindless repetition of something she had heard on television. I woke up. A few things definitely happened on 9/11. A few other things had to have happened as well, but we don't know exactly what they were. ......... A new study came out this week. Liberals and conservatives have brains that work in different ways. Conservatives are more tenacious in their thinking (liberals would call that bull-headedness). Liberals are more flexible (conservatives would call that wishy-washy). Conservatives have less tolerance for ambiguity. Conservatives make more mistakes. (end of study) On the other hand, eighty percent of new businesses in this country fail within five years, usually from lack of capital. Along with that, the average successful businessman has been through four bankruptcies. (end of common knowledge) Some conservative business educators claim that successful people don't change their minds. Some liberals would say that trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, is a sign of insanity. (end of paraphrase) For every proverb there is an equal and opposite proverb. .......... People are different. I take exception to your coming in here and engaging in name-calling because someone disagrees with you. You haven't looked at all the evidence. There are pictures on the ae911truth website which you have never seen. They are NOT on the Popular Mechanics website. They are part of the slide show -- the Powerpoint presentation. Just look at it once, if you have time. ..........
1095:. It has only been out for two days, but by the time it's as old as Loose Change, it will have a very long bibliography. . I discovered earlier that I cannot re-add an article which was previously deleted, no matter how much circumstances have changed since the earlier discussion, and apparently, I can't even read the earlier discussion. It just gets a quick removal. . This article will have several categories of opponents. It merely presents facts about an organization which merely presents evidence that the WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Therefore, there is no "conspiracy theory" involved. It has been asserted elsewhere that in any gathering where architects and engineers are present when Richard Gage makes his presentation, 90% of those people join his organization. Where do you imagine he got 150 professional members in a fairly short time? . Dr. Steven Jones has presented a chemical analysis of material retrieved from the WTC and of dust from the neighborhood along with his analysis of the physics of the falling structure. He was faulted for this by the engineering faculty at BYU because he is "only a physicist," and not an architect or structural engineer. ae911truth.org presents a list of 16 indicators that controlled demolition was used at the WTC. One of these indicators is the thermite/ thermate residue Dr. Jones identified in the formerly molten metal from the site and the "iron rich spheroids" retrieved from the dust. Formerly molten metal? Yes. Dozens of people, including the president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. mentioned TONS of molten metal under each of the three high-rises that collapsed at the WTC more than a MONTH after the demolition. That cannot be explained by the theory of burning jet fuel (a/k/a "kerosene"). Very large quantities of thermate were apparently used in this demolition. There is easily enough evidence of arson here that an independent congressional investigation of the events of 9/11 is called for, which is the goal of ae911truth.org. Given all of that, within the historical context of the conversation, this organization is very significant.
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handle the insertion of the occasional fact to counter your lurid and baseless accusations. 'In fact, the overwhelming majority of accredited engineers and architects have not considered the issue at all. Like most
Americans, they accepted what they saw on the network news programs, which came from press releases of the Bush administration. Presumably all engineers and architects currently working for the Federal Government will agree with this assessment. Among retired governmental employees, whose pensions are no longer in danger, this is no longer the case."
1414:. That's simply what Popular Mechanics claims, but that doesn't make it true. Popular Mechanics attacked a lot of minor points and brought in an irresponsible piece of anti-semitic "art," which has nothing to do with anything. That's called "guilt by association," and it's pretty desperate. When it came to Norman Minetta's testimony, the Popular Mechanics "expert" -- twenty-something Hearst Corporation employee Davin Coburn -- tried to argue that some OTHER plane was "50 miles out." 50 miles out from WHERE? "...and yet you still keep making them" -- that's
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organization is still formulating a consensus on this issue, however. Other, less flattering, comments regarding
Knowledge were made by another architect in a recent email. If it is deleted, it should be deleted in such a way that it can be re-added in a few months when more "reliable" sources are available, without running into the "speedy delete" problem, which I don't have the foggiest idea how to handle.
1051:"We call upon Congress for a truly independent investigation with subpoena power. We believe that there may be sufficient evidence to conclude that the World Trade Center buildings #1 (North Tower), #2 (South Tower), and #7 (the 47 story high-rise across Vessey St.) were destroyed not by jet impact and fires but by controlled demolition with explosives."
1017:, no reliable sources explaining notability. Very little (none?) of the information in the article is sourced from reliable sources. I can't spot anything that is sourced, so nothing there to merge. Not every web site is automatically notable, and conspiracy theory sites are no more an exception than Pokemon chat forums are.
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still keep making them. Even the kids behind the ludicrous 'loose change' video aren't claiming there was any 'controlled demolition' in their latest version. Claiming that anyone who actually believes in what the evidence obviously shows is 'a troll' or 'a vandal' doesn't actually strengthen your argument.
1444:"'I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable,' explained Dr. Quintiere. "Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another."
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I "believe in something which runs counter to all the available evidence?" You don't have a clue what I believe. Numerous witnesses, including the president of
Controlled Demolition, Inc. report seeing tons of molten metal under all three high-rises at the WTC more than a month after the 9/11 events.
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I didn't removed my last comment and stand by it completely. In my opinion you are quite deranged. You believe in something which runs counter to all the available evidence. You are entirely at odds with reality. All the points you've made have been thoroughly debunked time and again and yet you
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Actually, there is no "ludicrous conspiracy theory" mentioned here. This article is about a RAPIDLY GROWING group of professional architects and engineers (ten new members since we started this conversation) promoting the idea that WTC buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition and that there
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Additional problem: some of the professional members of the
Architects and Engineers organization do not wish to have their organization listed on Knowledge due to the recent publicity given to defense contractors and other similar organizations hiring staffs to manipulate Knowledge articles. The
1499:
No, that's not how things work here. If the consensus is to keep the article, or if there's no consensus either way, the article is kept. If, at the end of the roughly five-day period, the consensus is to delete the article, it is deleted. If the organisation becomes "quite large" later on and is
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Consider the insertion of "self-professed." This was cited as a reason to delete the article for "fraud" because there is no such thing as a self-professed professional. In fact, all professional members of the group are licensed professionals who must FAX in copies of their credentials to become
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The 'vandalism' you say this article has attracted was actually attempts to make it a balanced and NPOV article. The fact that you and your comrades removed such comments show why such articles have no place on wikipedia. This is not a place to push ludicrous conspiracy theories if you cannot
48:. Strength of numbers below favors deletion; it is also worth noting that the limited sources are mostly not independent. Of the few that are, these mentions merely verify the existence of the group, and do not devote much time to it, or ascribe to it any great significance. A
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Since you are new, you should stick around Wiki longer and observe before creating articles. You learn by making small edits and working your way up. Once you learn the policies and requirements concerning how to make a good article then you will be ready to write an article.
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And, by the way, (August, 2007) "James
Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST's investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on
1441:"James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST's investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.
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Dr. Steven Jones did the first analysis of the formerly molten metal from the WTC and the first analysis of the black residue in the dust. His analysis has now been validated by several other scientists. It was molten iron which had never been steel.
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This is not supposed to be about whether the organization being discussed is "correct" in its opinions and goals or not. The article is about the organization. It exists. Historically, it is notable. This conversation is supposed to be about the
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better able to meet the notability requirements, there's nothing wrong with writing the article again with sources demonstrating this notability. Consensus can and does change, and I don't think people are going to dispute that.
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I was that vandal. I put in 'self proclaimed' because this organisation carries out NO background checks on the supposed qualifications of its members. Therefore they are exactly 'self proclaimed' in their professional status.
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as non-notable; according to its own page, it has about 400 members only. This of course doesn't necessarily equate a lack of notability, but if it is small, it should at least assert some importance, which the article doesn't.
1087:. O.K. I'm new around here, and I see that I have to write two articles, one for Knowledge and one for critics. . The importance of this article is revealed, in part, by the amount of vandalism it has attracted. . The DVD
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Baseless? Kevin Ryan was fired for blowing the whistle about the quality of the steel used in the WTC. Military personnel have been court-martialed for expressing political opinions about 9/11 on their own time, "out of
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Deleting it at this point would have the effect of CENSORING something which will be quite large in a few months. Then, what do we do? Claim that we've already reached a consensus when circumstances have changed?
1182:. Some now retired military personnel (mentioned elsewhere) have stated that they waited until they were retired to criticize unconscionable activities of several administrations, Democrat as well as Republican.
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Ten to fifteen new architectural and engineering professionals have been joining it every week. As soon as people start watching their new DVD, it will grow geometrically, all over the country. ..........
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article will be filled with sections on this group, Minneapolis
Ironworkers for Truth, Butte Accountants for Truth, and any other group of a couple dozen people loosely associated with the larger group.
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I'm nominating this because it's unsourced (apart from one unreliable source) and I think it's probably unverifiable. A cursory google search doesn't turn up any third-party reliable sources.
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limited mention of these folks in the 9/11 Truth article might be undertaken (one sourced sentence) without the need for the GFDL history here, if commenters at that talk page don't object.
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If you visit , you will numerous examples of accomplished and high-ranking individuals, mostly retired, who seriously question the official conspiracy theory (OCT) laid out in the
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Apparently I should have used that {fact} thingie. Did I get it right? No, I didn't. Exactly what percentage of professional engineers and architects promote the OCTÂ ?
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Given the amount of vandalism this article has attracted, it should be protected at some level. It is, therefore, inappropriate to merge it into another article.
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Including the fair bit of conspiracy theorizing in-article, there is nothing notable here. It seems to be a small group based exclusively in San
Francisco, so
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should be a congressional investigation. Nothing I have seen on their website alleges that the demolitions were carried out by
Martians or anyone else.
333:, of which this group apparently is involved. There are actually several websites associated with this group according to Yahoo!: Group's homepage:
1425:"Even the kids behind the ludicrous 'loose change' video aren't claiming there was any 'controlled demolition' in their latest version." -- that's
990:, we need independent sources to warrant inclusion of an organization like this. Fringe groups are out there, but this one isn't notable enough.
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There is nothing about that in the OCT report from the 9/11 Commission. There is nothing there about building 7, at all, as a matter of fact.
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If fifty-one percent of
Americans agree with the goals of the group, how can you call their position "ludicrous?" Most people would disagree.
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Why, hello, Mr. POV warrior! I see that you have quite a record of suppressing information about information you disagree with! :-)
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argument -- I'm "deranged." So nobody should investigate what I say because if they agree with me, they'll be "deranged" as well?
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At the same time, 51 percent of the country already agrees with their goal: there should be a new, independent 9/11 investigation.
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to minimise verifiability and notability concerns. I had no idea there were so many 9/11 conspiracy articles on wikipedia.
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page and they are mainly concerned with the collapse of the buildings, from the "about us" section on their website:
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as well. They have decided to focus on WTC-7 as a better use of time in their video. Let's see a recent news item:
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Who deleted your last comment? I was just studying "Playing the Dozens for
Dummies," getting ready to respond....
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Lurid? I'd welcome suggestions on how to fix that. I tend to over-react to certain kinds of troll-editing.
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1418:. We need a truly independent, possibly international, investigation that looks at ALL of the evidence.
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I suggest that we keep this conversation open for three months to see how large ae911truth is by then.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Zogby Poll: 51% of Americans Want Congress to Probe Bush/Cheney Regarding 9/11 Attacks;
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per lack of notability, and I oppose any merging because of this lack of notability
1410:"All the points you've made have been thoroughly debunked time and again" -- that's
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out there to merit an article, there is already a link to the organization on the
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may need some more sourcing, but I recall this group running a fullpage an in
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Or, are you disagreeing with my objection? Let me try to edit the POV out.
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Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center
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Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center
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I see no compelling reason to keep the article on this non-notable group.
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If nothing else, merge it with the other 9/11 conspiracy theory articles.
1464:........ VOTING is UP THERE somewhere. ^ ..............................|
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Various people are adding additional sources. Are you willing to wait
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I am writing this article, so I'm going to respond to each criticism.
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Hold on a minute, please. The phrase "self proclaimed" was added by
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Third-party "reliable" sources have been added by various people.
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Thank you. The biggest difference is that the 9/11 Truth Movement
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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does not have official members or spokespeople. This group does.
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That's an interesting bit of projection. You start out with an
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a few months for more sources? I'll have more comments shortly.
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Please find "theorizing" in the article, and we will remove it.
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Zogby Poll: 51% of Americans Want Congress to Probe Bush/Cheney
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67% also fault 9/11 Commission for not investigating anomalous
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a vandal. Professional members have to FAX in copies of their
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In response to what you have no idea of, it reflects society.
440:, for such a non-notable organization, is clearly wrong. It
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Articles for deletion/Architects and engineers for 9/11 truth
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Regarding 9/11 Attacks; Over 30% Seek Immediate Impeachment
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This is a very notable organization. I'll explain below.
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if you cannot handle the insertion of the occasional fact
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This is not a place to push ludicrous conspiracy theories
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has its own article. The DVD from ae911truth is the new
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Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation
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Kansas City, MO (Zogby International) September 6, 2007
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Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division Calls for
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It's 10:31 PM Pacific Time, on September 10th, 2007.
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Original Content at www.opednews.com August 21, 2007
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No reliable sources for an unnotable "organisation".
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As I mentioned above, such sources have been added.
844:, and smacks strongly of an attempt to promote the
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
205:unless reliable third-party sources can be found.
1531:). No further edits should be made to this page.
753:promotional; non-notable; also per Jakew above.
1317:to counter your lurid and baseless accusations.
1367:list of Conspiracy theories-related deletions
635:appears to be the best course of action here.
262:Noted. I'll add an assertion of importance.
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656:would probably be a bad idea--otherwise the
1069:Non notable and lacks reliable sources. --
1365:: This debate has been included in the
448:, in which case it should be merged. —
886:Comment on edits, not on editors. See
83:Architects and engineers for 9/11 truth
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63:Architects and engineers for 9/11 truth
769:. Just not enough sources satisfying
288:We have a page for this, don't we? --
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1468:It's already 9/11 on the East Coast
406:Thank you. I'll discuss this below.
1238:Over 30% Seek Immediate Impeachment
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773:to justify a stand-alone article.
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967:out there to merit an article. --
615:collapse of World Trade Center 7
505:elf proclaimed ... professionals
305:Would you care to discuss this?
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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1455:This isn't a forum. Stop.--
934:Torturous Devastating Cudgel
599:Released: September 06, 2007
530:credentials to be admitted.
920:More POV content forks. --
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1037:. Lack of notability and
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1524:Please do not modify it.
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1515:someone else's comments
963:Lack of notability and
1180:9/11 Commission Report
68:AfDs for this article:
842:Vanispamcruftisement
809:lacks notability.--
767:9/11 Truth Movement
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1438:— By Alan Miller
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748:
732:
720:
692:
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489:
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397:
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375:
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353:
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319:
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296:
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282:
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269:
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232:
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195:
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176:
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162:
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148:
131:
130:
77:
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75:
67:
65:
60:
42:
41:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1544:
1532:
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1349:Nick mallory:
1346:
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1327:
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1083:General reply
1082:
1080:
1075:
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1059:
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713:Contributions
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167:
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163:
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149:
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139:
136:
128:
122:
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101:
96:
92:
88:
84:
80:
79:
74:
71:
64:
61:
59:
58:
55:
51:
47:
40:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
1523:
1520:
1488:
1482:
1481:
1478:
1471:
1467:
1466:
1463:
1454:
1451:(continuing)
1446:
1443:
1440:
1435:
1432:
1431:
1426:
1424:
1420:
1415:
1411:
1409:
1405:
1400:
1398:
1389:Nick mallory
1362:
1348:
1347:
1339:
1316:
1294:
1270:
1207:
1195:
1149:Nick mallory
1143:
1129:
1120:
1093:Loose Change
1089:Loose Change
1088:
1086:
1078:
1066:
1055:
1050:
1030:
1026:
1014:
983:
960:
929:
917:
905:
852:
834:
818:
806:
762:
755:Tom Harrison
750:
738:
734:
722:
695:
653:
649:
632:
565:
542:Nick mallory
504:
492:
450:Arthur Rubin
441:
437:
433:
429:
382:
378:
326:
322:
285:
235:
203:unverifiable
198:
170:Nick mallory
165:
132:
49:
45:
43:
31:
28:
839:non-notable
501:WP:NONSENSE
1401:ad hominem
1019:Weregerbil
823:User:Corpx
663:Deusnoctum
509:Peter Grey
247:Review me!
242:Lilac Soul
1329:uniform."
993:JungleCat
743:Mandsford
1473:article.
1165:members.
1108:Strothra
1071:Strothra
922:DHeyward
892:Strothra
846:WP:TRUTH
739:Newsweek
580:stalkers
446:Truthers
127:View log
1144:Comment
1117:problem
986:As per
497:WP:HOAX
337:Squad51
100:protect
95:history
1502:BigHaz
1491:Wowest
1353:Wowest
1341:Wowest
1282:9/11."
1133:Wowest
1123:Wowest
1097:Wowest
1067:Delete
1027:Delete
1015:Delete
1005:Oohhh!
999:Shiny!
984:Delete
961:Delete
951:Wowest
930:Delete
918:Delete
888:WP:NPA
879:Wowest
835:Delete
819:Delete
807:Delete
793:Wowest
775:Edison
751:Delete
723:Delete
696:Delete
682:Wowest
650:Delete
619:Wowest
552:Wowest
532:Wowest
493:Delete
479:Wowest
471:Wowest
454:(talk)
434:delete
416:Wowest
408:Wowest
365:Wowest
357:Wowest
309:Wowest
290:Tarage
286:Delete
272:Wowest
264:Wowest
236:Delete
222:Wowest
199:Delete
185:Wowest
166:Delete
152:Wowest
104:delete
46:Delete
1427:false
1412:false
1315:"(3)
1293:"(2)
1206:"(1)
1031:Merge
988:WP:RS
906:Merge
811:MONGO
771:WP:RS
763:Merge
727:Corpx
701:Pablo
654:merge
641:Haemo
633:Merge
568:into
566:Merge
442:could
430:merge
383:merge
327:merge
207:Jakew
121:views
113:watch
109:links
54:Xoloz
16:<
1416:true
1363:Note
974:talk
969:Aude
910:Geir
827:fchd
735:Keep
707:Talk
438:Keep
379:Keep
323:Keep
117:logs
91:talk
87:edit
50:very
1457:P4k
1372:--
1369:.
1058:PTR
1029:or
945:POV
908:.
890:.--
860:Yo
848:.
837:as
765:to
503:.
495:as
452:|
436:.
432:or
391:bov
381:or
325:or
201:as
135:P4k
125:– (
1504:-
1106:--
1056:--
948:}}
942:{{
866:·
825:-
710:|
661:--
639:--
389:.
245:-
119:|
115:|
111:|
107:|
102:|
98:|
93:|
89:|
1319:"
1297:"
1210:"
1002:/
976:)
972:(
499:/
129:)
123:)
85:(
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