396:: I was notified of the AfD of this article as its original creator. It has grown into a very detailed work translated into over a dozen languages since I last worked on it four years ago. If it were to be merged as some have suggested the detailed information contained in it would be lost in a more general article. Knowledge is not a paper encyclopedia and I see no reason why there can't be articles about seemingly trivial matters in fictional universes as is the case here if there are users willing to maintain the article, as is obviously the case given its current state. --
724:. Some of these sources do more than mention the location; they claim that it was ground-breaking, responsible for the success of the game, and well-realized, among other things. They discuss, in detail, what the visual and temporal design of the location means to the player as the game is played. We could ask no more of the sources than this, the very definition of notability. I loaded up the article's lead with some of the book references just now, please take a look.
934:) - in other words, there does appear to be sufficient sources to state that the "locations" of Half-Life games are notable. Merging them (with redirects, so as not to merge and delete, and transwiking existing pages) with the correct amount of trimming, may be helpful to link these aspects all in to avoid the excess text that might be there presently, yet present all these locations in an encyclopedic manner. --
1024:
employment at Black Mesa. "Come work for us! Just ignore all the headcrabs..." Cutting down to key salient points (it is huge with its own internal underground tram system, there are numerous people employed there, and the research that goes on is this list) you still get the flavor of what BM is to be to those that have not played the game. --
772:. If the article is kept then it needs to be entirely ripped up and started again from an encyclopedic viewpoint as its current form is unacceptable. There's no disputing (although someone inevitably will) that the article is an utter mess of in-universe information and original research. If deleted, redirect to
1338:: As Masem has suggested, I'm working on a merged version for all the locations in my sandbox (while this article may potentially be able to portray notability, most of the others cannot). Don't expect it to be in a decent state for a while though, it probably won't be ready until after this AfD is finished. --
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exists. If there weren't any notability requirements, the page wouldn't be there. I went through the links for the Half-Life reviews, and the only mention to Black Mesa is as the setting, not anything useful for developing an article from a real-world perspective. If there's no notability, it should
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It has still not been demonstrated that Black Mesa is independently notable; in all sources brought to the discussion thus far it is always discussed in the context of the Half-Life games. Notability is not inherited, and lots of games have their settings named in reviews, etc. but that doesn't make
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Even if one could read those as sufficient analysis for secondary sources, if those are the only two we have (I'm not saying there may not be more), the amount of other content in the article relative to this is out of balance. The influence of "The mist" can still be mentioned if merged to another
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happens. There's a fair few things to be said about the way the location is designed to conduct narrative indirectly without taking control away from the player, and the sense of ordinary life gone wrong that the first game's peaceful opening underlines. You'll be happy to note that the former file
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Part of the problem is the size of this article. It is not necessary to cover all the known portions of the facility, but instead to give a general overview of what the non-gamer should be aware exists within the facility as to understand why it is being called notable per the sources above (this
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Black Mesa, only giving the nod that Half Life takes place within it. Any sources for notability need to be more than just mentions of the location and should be more about any critical reception or commentary on it, or even developer information (I've done a google news search with no luck along
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Enterprise can establish its notability through third party sources. While the
Enterprise article may not be a shining example of a properly done fictional article, you can at least see some of those sources mirrored in the article. Black Mesa does not apppear to have those sources (or certainly
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on the in-universe aspects and not on it's reception). Most of this can be cut down to 2-4 paragraphs to keep the critical information, and thus making merging with other locations reasonable. Right now, as it stands, it is too much in-universe in tone, and reads like a promotional brochure for
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A spinout article needs to be clearly marked as such, per the suggestion I referred to earlier in merging it to "Locations in Half-Life" or any similarly titled article ("Setting of Half-Life"). A title that implies that the subject is independently notable ("Black Mesa
Research Facility") is a
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is a very popular game and that this is a very nice, extensive article about one of HL's locations. Nobody wants to vaporize the article into nonexistence. The question is simply whether it belongs here in WP. As an encyclopedia article, it has many problems that have been pointed out and that
408:: I agree that this isn't any more fit for deletion than any of the other articles on fictional locations (see Azeroth in the World of Warcraft universe as an example. At worst merge into Half-Life 2 and keep the bulk of the text, because it's such a central element to the game--
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haven't been fixed: the material is told from an in-universe perspective which is not appropriate for WP, there is a distinct lack of 3rd-party citations, and there is at least a serious question of notability as this article rests solely on the notability of HL, not its own. --
452:: Being the fictional location of one of the most popular games in the world is not trivial. Knowledge is one of the best sources on the internet for HL-related stuff, and it would be a shame to see it all deleted due to some nonsence about "notability". --
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Fails the notability requirements for fiction, dealing entirely with the subject from an in universe perspective with no secondary sources which prove notability. I would say merge, except all the good info has been summarized within the games. -
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That would be an ideal solution. While individual locations may not be notable, establishing notability for the concept of locations in HL should work - its what we do for a lot of character articles after all. That gets my support. --
48:. Some sources have been found, and while they haven't satisfied everybody, there does not appear to be a consensus to delete, and a number of editors have expressed that this element in Half-Life is too important to remove.
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and edit very sharply. Its notable enough in the fiction for an article, but as is frequently the case, not all of it is important except to the fans. But some of it relevant to any understanding of the general topic.
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per references found since. However, article needs major cleanup - we do not need a complete rundown of the facilities that are in the site that are mostly sourced from primary, just a general overview.
164:. I would say merge, but the good, relevant information is already in the appropriate articles. On its own, the subject simply isn't notable. This could only ever be written in an in-universe style.
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not have a spin-out article full of original research, and its information should be limited to the setting part of Half-Life or as part of a collective article on Half-Life locations. It needs sources
930:. This is tied with the references mentioned above in that though explicit for Half-Life, I would not be surprised to find similar comments for the Half-Life 2 locations (I can find at least one on
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It is a matter of interpretation (or spin), but I have tried to distinguish between mere mentions and reviews/analysis. I think the sources rise to the occasion in this rare case.
651:. There's no reason not to keep the article. Unless, of course, someone feels like he has the authority to decide what fits in and what doesn't. Soviet censors did the same thing.
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is a proposed policy. The policy for notability in general requires non-trivial mention in third-party reliable sources, which this article meets. Though I would support
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fall slightly short of establishing notability for the subject, in my opinion, but together with sources for other locations there may be enough for a combined article.
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those settings notable. If the fictional locales of a game series is worth preserving outside the game articles, it should be done so via Masem's suggestion above.
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Yes, true enough on the sourcing requirements, but I figured - and figure - that these two do describe Black Mesa beyond just mentioning it as the place where
382:'s findings below assert notability and are plentiful enough to justify the subject matter an article to itself, even if the current article needs a cleanup.
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enough to justify why the article shouldn't be merged into a more concise locations of half-life article), and so does not meet independent notability. --
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and merge some kind of summarized overview to a Half-life article, as something that is not notable outside of the context of that main Half-life article.
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at the same time though they are not part of this AFD). A "setting" section in a article about a video game series would be completely appropriate. --
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here, those who have experience in editing Half-Life - related things or finding references for video game coverage should look deeper into this. --
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I figured that an extremely significant and well-known element of game design would raise professional interest. A cursory search found things like
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as notable element of notable game that is well presented with references that are consistent per First pillar with a specialized enyclopedia.
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As has been indicated throughout this discussion there are far more reasons to keep this article than to delete it. Sincerely, --
615:. So, since the good information all appears elsewhere, as already indicated above, there is no need for such a flawed article. --
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1301:: I am only concerned that the keywords 'Black Mesa' eventually reach here, as this was the only definition I wanted to see.
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It certainly does not "perfectly satisfy verifability" - it barely references anything. Practically all of the article is
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there are no "notability requirements for ficton." If you want secondary sources, start looking through these 92 sources
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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coverage; they are merely mentions. Same thing for the scholar mentions; they are mentioning the setting of
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This article seems to perfectly satisfy verifability and other requirements, and I believe it should stay.
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afterwards to preserve the search term. In any case, most of the relevant articles contain much of the
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Especially since they don't come much more iconic than Black Mesa. Maybe
Azeroth amd Level 1-1. --
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Sorry, I'm a little unclear on what you mean here. You want to keep the article because its on a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
1243:. AFD is for articles you think should be deleted, not merged. This article is an acceptable
341:: Simply a plot "summary" plus detailed physical description of various levels of Half-Life.
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per
Casliber. Clearly notable feature of an even more clearly notable game series. Is the
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As already indicated above, per the GFDL, we cannot legally "merge and delete". Please see
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notable location in highly notable series. Size suggests merging may be unwieldy. Cheers,
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does have developer information about the narrative and the inspiration of
Stephen King's
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clearly notable, it just fails to assert its own notability. That's an argument to
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359:: Knowledge is an encyclopedia, and as such doesn't need this level of detail per
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While both can be considered secondary sources, the references above do not talk
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In the case of sub and spinout articles, notability is inherited. Sincerely, --
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574:. I wonder if we're perhaps getting sidetracked here? There is no argument that
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You do not appear to be disputing my point, which is that the subject
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None of the google books, at least from the previews shown, merit
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
979:, based on what the original writer deduced from the games. --
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279:- And merge anything useful beforehand to the series article.
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Nothing is exempt from our notability process. That's why
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922:, and possibly the section on Aperture Science from
1255:continued crusade to delete all things related to
780:information already in the "setting" sections. --
1130:Either trim to one or two sourced paragraphs and
768:: The article already exists in transwikied form
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1365:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1259:makes it appear like he has an axe to grind. --
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300:is never a good reason for deletion, nor is
819:Actually, they don't. See above comments,
801:. These clearly demonstrate notability.
695:Why not transwiki to Half life wikia?. --
472:Story: Writing Skills for Game Developers
304:. Also, we cannot merge and delete per
180:Note: This debate has been added to the
144:per the well-detailed nom. Fancruft.--
1146:. The possible sources identified by
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182:list of video game related deletions
887:This might be a reasonable case to
797:per Google News results linked by
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1136:Locations in the Half-Life series
928:Locations in the Half-Life series
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425:is a disambiguation pointing to
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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862:as proposed directly below.
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830:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs
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132:Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs
1358:Please do not modify it.
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32:Please do not modify it.
853:WP:Notability (fiction)
478:. I'm going to go with
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142:Strong delete
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1114:Ham Pastrami
1086:Ham Pastrami
1080:
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1021:undue weight
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159:Redirect to
158:
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127:
46:no consensus
45:
43:
31:
28:
1253:David Fuchs
959:Strong Keep
857:Merging to
744:significant
547:article. --
450:Strong Keep
361:WP:NOT#INFO
308:. Best, --
298:WP:ITSCRUFT
294:Strong keep
1303:Eddietoran
1169:Enterprise
963:Paulalex19
885:Suggestion
617:AnnaFrance
583:AnnaFrance
431:redirected
384:Una Laguna
365:Una Laguna
1261:Pixelface
1257:Half-Life
1173:Star Trek
932:Ravenhelm
916:The Coast
912:Ravenholm
778:necessary
748:Half-Life
697:SkyWalker
693:Transwiki
577:Half Life
520:Half-Life
474:from the
326:Randomran
302:WP:PERNOM
50:Sjakkalle
1048:contribs
1038:Casliber
1010:contribs
1000:Casliber
525:The Mist
167:Celarnor
122:View log
54:(Check!)
1336:Comment
1275:WP:FICT
1247:of the
1245:spinout
1112:no-go.
896:City 17
766:Comment
669:What --
423:Azeroth
410:Camokub
215:City 17
186:MrKIA11
146:WaltCip
89:protect
84:history
1144:delete
1081:Delete
720:, and
613:Delete
572:delete
435:Nifboy
357:Delete
343:Nifboy
339:Delete
277:Delete
117:delete
93:delete
1340:Sabre
1321:Sabre
1319:? --
1284:Sabre
1282:. --
1195:Sabre
1171:from
1152:Jakew
1140:Masem
1132:merge
1019:puts
981:Sabre
949:Sabre
889:merge
864:Oren0
803:Oren0
782:Sabre
567:Merge
503:about
203:Merge
120:) – (
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1344:talk
1325:talk
1307:talk
1299:Keep
1288:talk
1265:talk
1234:Keep
1221:talk
1217:Xihr
1199:talk
1184:talk
1180:Xihr
1165:Keep
1156:talk
1138:per
1118:talk
1090:talk
1072:talk
1061:Keep
1042:talk
1028:ASEM
1004:talk
996:Keep
985:talk
967:talk
938:ASEM
868:talk
844:talk
825:WP:N
823:and
807:talk
795:Keep
786:talk
770:here
730:talk
710:Keep
701:talk
657:talk
649:Keep
621:talk
587:talk
551:ASEM
527:. --
510:ASEM
480:keep
470:and
458:talk
439:talk
414:talk
406:Keep
394:Keep
376:Keep
347:talk
330:talk
285:talk
264:ASEM
257:Keep
221:ASEM
213:and
190:talk
150:talk
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
1142:or
1134:to
1067:DGG
904:Xen
671:Kiz
569:and
529:Kiz
484:Kiz
236:Kiz
1346:)
1327:)
1309:)
1290:)
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260:--
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1342:(
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