937:, which can easily accommodate and contextualize the the information, and where it is likely to be of most use to our readers at the present time anyway. It's not policy-consistent to operate under the prediction that the subject will develop enough to justify a stand-alone article. The information is certainly worth preserving and is decently sourced, but not all information that is appropriate for inclusion on Knowledge (XXG) constitutes a need for a separate article space. A few weeks will suffice to tell us what develops of this situation and until then the cohesiveness and accuracy of our coverage will benefit from not rapidly spinning out articles on the basis of uncertain developments in the very chaotic and rapidly moving events of these circumstances.
473:. As was already mentioned, this group does not have control over Donetsk oblast or Donetsk city itself as can be seen from continuous work of RSA administration appointed by Kiev, which just moved to another building, and also City hall. In terms of cities, the full control of exercised only in Slavyansk and partial in Krematorsk and few other towns, encircling much less than even 10 percent of population by the Oblast. This is attempted copy of Aksyonov - Crimea situation but it is not one. Not one at this very moment with no indication that this is supposed to change. If situation changes or if Oblast towns will carry out the referendum, despite the disagreement of central government like in Gagazuia it can be restored. Not until.
1357:". The entire article states very clearly that there is serious doubt that the referendum will take place. This does not met the "nearly certain to happen" requirement of Crystal. To the contrary, this entire article is about how the referendum fails that policy. While I agree that this is notable enough for inclusion in the Donetsk article(and it already gets covered there, hence my redirect vote) due to some news coverage, the fact that they are attempting to hold a referendum does not warrant an article unless it is clear that it will almost certainly take place. As no one in the republic can explain how they will conducting holding the referendum, a redirect is a good decision.
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elected president, and because the new cabinet was assembled on the basis of representing the groups that were used to storm government buildings to overturn the legal government; (2) the Kiev regime cannot disarm the armed group Right Sector or even force it to leave government buildings in Kiev which it continues to occupy; (3) the Kiev regime has no control over vast swaths of
Ukrainian territory, especially in the southeast. It is possible that a legitimate, functional Ukrainian government will be restored at some point in the future, but it is equally possible that the Ukraine will just cease to exist. Thus, the article
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has a central government capable of conducting elections, so they are almost certain to take place (and even if they don't, that fact is notable in and of itself because it is probably indicative of a major disaster or regime change). Donetsk consists of a couple of occupied buildings while the majority of the area is still in
Ukranian control. It is highly doubtful that they will be able to carry out this referendum, and if they fail to do so then it isn't notable as it would just amount to a failed nnouncement. This (in addition to general notability concerns) is justification for a delete (or a redirect, see above).
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checkpoints (which is nowhere close to the 50% of the territory you claimed), all of which are being or are liable to quickly be contested by the
Ukrainian government and military before the May 11 referendum. They do not have control over the institutions needed to hold such an election. The two entities are incomparable. Plus, the Syrian election has gotten so much coverage and political reactions that it will be notable whether or not it is actually held. This does not apply with the status referendum
912:, are notable enough for an article, so we know the upcoming games are guaranteed to meet notability requirements. In the probable event that this referendum never occurs, will it warrant an article? If your answer is no, then it doesn't deserve an article. Crystal does not state that we should create articles about any subject that might potentially become notable in the future. To the contrary, if you click the link you'll see that it pretty much states the exact opposite of my earlier sentence.
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the reasons I've listed above. The Voice of Russia is the
Russian governments official news station, which I'm hesitant to count as reliable due to some severe conflicts of interest. If you think that I'm just being irrational, then please show me non-Russian sources stating the referendum will almost certainly occur (this is needed to meet the diversity of source requirement for notability anyways) Otherwise, this referendum is more than adequately covered in the article on Donetsk
1237:. This very article even says as much, stating "It is far from clear how any referendum can be held". I've also analyzed a news source further down that discusses why the referendum is unlikely to happen. In the end, I agree that this event is somewhat notable as its gotten some amount of coverage in the news. However it is better covered in the Donetsk article (which currently covers the referendum quit nicely) until such a point in time where the referendum will clearly be held.
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The wording doesn't matter in terms of notability, as anyone can create a ballot given access to
Microsoft Word and 15 minutes of time. What matters is whether the referendum can actually be held. Most of the news I've seen on the referendum raises serious doubts as to whether it will take place for
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Just because they can't stop the violence doesn't mean the separatists actively control the regions and their infrastructure and institutions. The statement was solely on the policing situation. AFAIK they only control
Sloviansk and Kramatorsk in their entirety (the former being blockaded), and other
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Regarding your last point, the most cursory of searches yields dozens of reliable sources on the referendum. Regarding your claim about DPR controlling "a few buildings and checkpoints"... Seriously?.. Then why did
Ukraine's de-facto president just admitted to having lost control of not only Donetsk,
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Syrian government: controls about half of its claimed territory, while fighting a brutal civil war; little doubt over its ability to hold the election. DPR: controls about half of its claimed territory, no civil war yet; ability to hold the referendum in serious doubt. Clearly, this is a very strange
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How on earth was the AfD a "POV request"? I only cited wikipedia policy, not personal interpretations or a partisan point of view. My issue that prompted the filing was entirely under the purview that this is theoretical and proposed, but not legitimately destined to happen. This content can still be
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sources which treat the subject in a wide variety of contexts, relevance which will continue to exist regardless of whether or not the election ever actually occurs. What you are suggesting with regard to this article is the use of a source about a trivial aspect of the the subject to prognosticate
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isn't about whether the event is, e.g., legitimate, legal, valid, appropriate for a seperate article, etc...; rather, those are seperate questions. Additional discussion would be needed to gain consensus on whether the article should then be deleted on merits besides CRYSTAL. Arguments pertaining to
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The article states that an unnamed activist claimed than an order of 3.2 million ballots had been sent to a local print shop. A mock ballot has been created (which is something that anyone with
Microsoft Word can create in a manner of minutes), but they do not currently have the 3.2 million ballots
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is
Knowledge (XXG) policy, and it directly states that "Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place". The reason that future elections in nations such as, say, the United States get future articles is because the US
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There is no rush to delete. The referendum is called for 11 May. If the referendum does not take place then, the article can then be deleted. Knowledge (XXG) can survive the transitory existence of this article for three weeks in that case. The previous post, with its mentioning that "rebels only
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with
Donetsk People's Republic. So far there have been no preparations, no institutions to carry out the referendum have been activated and this holds value only as a statement made by the DPR. If they do hold a referendum (which is highly unlikely by 11 May), it can easily be split from the DPR
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should be deleted. No Ukrainian Government currently exists: (1) governments are only called "governments" as opposed to regimes if they are legitimate, and the current Kiev regime clearly is not legitimate because the proper Constitutional procedure was not followed to remove the legitimately
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Syria has effective control over all of the institutions needed to hold an election and a great deal of the territory the government controls is under their effective occupation (meaning no significant rebel activity threatens their control). Donetsk controls several government buildings and
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READ the source, on the page the surce AFFIRMED it will take place now tht they want it. They wanted int 5 weeks ago, when the page was created the y said it WILL happen and are preparing g their election commission. Seems you just read the article title and got hyper-senseitive.
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and the fact that it is doubtful that the referendum will actually take place). The only reason I'm not voting delete is so that on the off-chance the referendum actually does take place, someone can recreate this page from the page history instead of rewriting it from
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on hand nor an explanation of how they will conduct a referendum in an area that is still, to a greater or lesser extent, under Ukrainian control. While the source is good, I don't think its enough to meet the "nearly certainly going to happen" criteria of Crystal.
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Future events that get articles are generally so notable that the event will still warrant an article even if it is never held. For example, we always create articles about the Olympic games before they open. This is because even canceled Olympic games, such as the
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The claim is not merely expressed by an activist, it is confirmed by the official, responsible for organizing the referendum. While it certainly is true that the DPR does not controll all of its claimed territory, neither does Syria, yet no one doubts that the
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Well, I did read the source and I see a lot of planning, preparing, presentation to Donetsk officials and so forth but I see not single one mention of anything that WILL happen or is AFFIRMED to happen, regardless of whether we write it in caps lock or not.
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create articles about tournaments, festivals and "non notable" elections, sometimes months or even years before they take place. I'm also tired of the way some editors like to rush things up like that for no obvious reason, except for apparently
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control 1 full city", shows a clear political motivation for this deletion request, with the editor proposing deletion apparently thinking that Knowledge (XXG) should be turned into a propaganda vehicle for Ukrainian nationalist extremists. –
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Despite largely uniform calls for a referendum on "federalization" of Ukraine,the anti-Kiev protesters now occupying government buildings across the restive Donbas region in eastern Ukraine don't appear to have a plan for how to bring that
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59:(WP:CRYSTAL), it seems reasonable to round down to a redirect (which also gives the inherent option to merge). Should the event occur, that clears the way for the redirect to be undone and the article to exist again, as
55:. There seems to predominantly be consensus against keeping, but the form varies from outright deletion to deletion with redirect, flat-out redirect, and merge. Since the main basis of the deletion appears to be
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There is no evidence that the referendum they called for will ever take place. There is no means for such a vote to be carried out and rebels only control 1 full city, and a few other buildings. This seems to be
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per nom. This is getting completely out of hand, the suggested date is two weeks away and with no real control, money, or jurisdiction, some separatist authorities plan on holding a referendum? WP:CRYSTAL this.
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all they have stated is that they 'want a referendum no later than may 11'. This is not definite to take place, it's a request made by some rebels who have no capacity whatsoever to carry out a state-wide vote.
710:; the approach taken on another article is a non-argument as regards determining whether this article is consistent with policy, a determination which must be made on the merits of this particular case alone.
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As the regime in Kiev continues to lose control of the situation, this referendum is gaining more traction. The referendum is being discussed at length in today's wrap-up article in the Guardian
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Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place
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and with pro-Kiev forces nowhere in sight, it's becoming clear that this referendum will be held, questions of legitimacy and how successful it will be with the wider population aside. --
452:. We do not yet know if this will take place for certain, the pro Russian group does not have full control over the Donetsk Oblast for example so how would this be carried out? -
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Not really analogous situations at all; there's little doubt that the Syrian presidential election will proceed, but in any event, it's notability is already established by
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1039:- following the recent announcement that the referendum ballots are already in print and that enough of them will be produced to cover all 3.2 million registered voters
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I would say redirect but am not sure that the title is the common name for the proposed event, as in who is going to type in "Donetsk status referendum"? I could see "
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Disagree. It's very unlikely that the referendum will take place in current conditions, while policy specifically says that the event needs to be **almost certain**.
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Notable: RS sources have said it . Not definite till it takes palce: then why do we have all election articles before the election? Guideliens are not policy, btw
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Good point about the name. If we want a name change, we could propose having the closing admin rename the article. Alternatively, someone could always just
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And because of a lack of governmental infrastructure and a dearth of the expertise to enact the necessary logistics, their goals appear to be out of reach
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Bringing your own bias and POV into the discussion is not going to help you. Your views about Ukrainian government or this referendum interest no one per
1323:" shows the editors political affiliation and non-neutral position in the question. Besides, from the given sources only Guardian can be considered as a
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and cited by others here. Knowledge (XXG) is not the news media and should not get ahead of itself. Especially should not attempt to CREATE news.
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fortune telling. Propose deletion until it's concrete such a thing will happen, or if it happens (on a limited scale) if it requires its own page.
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source; and in Guardian referendum is not discussed in length, but rather mentioned in the context of the general Ukrainian Crisis. Bests,
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837:- a real and notable proposed event. It might seem unlikely that Donetsk People's Republic will manage to hold this referendum, but it's
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1154:? Your prognostications about the Ukrainian army pouring in en masse are currently not supported by any sources. They couldn't even
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to delete this article based on currently perceived likelihood of this referendum actually taking place. (And please, refrain from
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Actually even canceled referenda are/can be notable. POV deletions based on supporting one side are not credible. In that case i
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article but right now it certainly isn't notable enough to get it's own article (and Knowledge (XXG) is not a crystal ball)
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page for deletion with the criteria you listed, the page would be speedily kept and you would probably be sanctioned for
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The wording of the referendum has been agreed on: ("Do you support the creation of the Donetsk People's Republic?")
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I think redirecting is a good idea for the reasons Spirit stated (that it can be restored if needed in the future)--
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that other sources sufficient to establish the notability and proper encyclopedic context for this referendum
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article. I don't think the article should be kept for the reasons listed above (specifically the violation of
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argument to make. Here is another source, where one of the DPR's leader calls the referendum "inevitable":
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How is one to say it is fictional when RS sources have cited it? Was crimea a fiction befor it happened?
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845:-motivated arguments. Deletion of an article doesn't magically cause its subject to become less real.)
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has exactly the same grounds for deletion as the article which is here being proposed for deletion. –
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kept on the DPR root article, and split when its evident that an article on a referendum is needed. --
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exists (illegal or legal, is just POV), but this article is about what they want to do in future.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Nobody is saying that this is fictional, it has been mentioned that part is a fact but it is
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You seem to be hyper-sensitive that your article about a fictional referendum got AfD'd... --
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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right now to say that it will be carried through for a number of reasons mentioned above. -
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That was a reference to controlling the situation in general, not the entire provinces --
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We should be careful to avoid confusing this proposed referendum with the successful
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Please keep your 'nationalist extremist conspiracy' rhetoric to a minimum, thanks. --
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Regardless, this article still fails the "almost certain to take place" criteria of
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Also the credibility of the POV request is up for question , as Herzen says
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and its preparations have been covered by additional sources: ITAR-TASS
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552:" being a more likely search term as that generates more results. -
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Your argument is completely invalid. If you were to nominate the
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Then request that page for deletion and let's discuss it there.
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I can use exactly the same argument to say that the article
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cities have buildings occupied but not city-wide control.--
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The Christian Science Monitor contains these statements: "
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the current (and/or future) article's naming are more for
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the article's primary subject being uncertain to happen
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652:. Please, read, Knowledge (XXG) guidelines. Bests,
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1374:and polling stations are already being prepared:
1017:list of Politics-related deletion discussions
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1015:Note: This debate has been included in the
995:Note: This debate has been included in the
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975:Note: This debate has been included in the
478:PS: Let´s not get into name calling such as
997:list of Events-related deletion discussions
690:disrupting Knowledge (XXG) to prove a point
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733:- There is no crystal balling here and we
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87:Donetsk status referendum, 2014
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286:Its also akin to Ccrimea
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1456:Please do not modify it.
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1192:Is this an exercise in
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670:. Sources do matter.
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1300:, The Hindu
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760:I disagree.
744:Fitzcarmalan
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50:redirect to
49:
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31:
28:
1194:doublethink
960:SkywalkerPL
892:EllsworthSK
781:SkywalkerPL
731:Speedy keep
706:Please see
672:EllsworthSK
484:EllsworthSK
423:EllsworthSK
180:free images
1440:Farmbrough
1280:Tourbillon
1235:WP:CRYSTAL
880:WP:CRYSTAL
839:WP:CRYSTAL
814:WP:CRYSTAL
762:WP:CRYSTAL
507:WP:CRYSTAL
471:WP:CRYSTAL
450:WP:CRYSTAL
338:WP:CRYSTAL
219:WP:CRYSTAL
61:WP:CRYSTAL
1461:talk page
1216:Львівське
1177:Львівське
1021:• Gene93k
1001:• Gene93k
981:• Gene93k
530:Львівське
405:Львівське
372:Львівське
309:Львівське
262:Львівське
224:Львівське
37:talk page
1463:or in a
1325:reliable
1222:говорити
1183:говорити
1096:existing
605:Paavo273
536:говорити
525:Redirect
510:scratch.
499:Redirect
411:говорити
378:говорити
315:говорити
268:говорити
230:говорити
139:View log
39:or in a
1353:" and "
1346:Comment
1329:neutral
1317:Comment
905:Comment
876:Comment
796:comment
668:WP:NPOV
546:Comment
281:support
186:WP refs
174:scholar
112:protect
107:history
1410:Delete
1379:Tocino
1305:Tocino
1198:Óðinn
1160:Óðinn
1123:Óðinn
1082:Óðinn
1044:Óðinn
800:Lihaas
735:always
650:WP:OSE
632:Herzen
597:Delete
572:boldly
467:Delete
446:Delete
390:Lihaas
356:Lihaas
293:Lihaas
283:Herzen
245:Herzen
158:Google
116:delete
1419:DDima
1351:about
1274:Merge
201:JSTOR
162:books
146:Stats
133:views
125:watch
121:links
75:slakr
16:<
1437:Rich
1393:talk
1363:talk
1337:talk
1327:and
1289:Keep
1243:talk
1202:talk
1164:talk
1142:talk
1127:talk
1109:talk
1105:Snow
1101:will
1086:talk
1067:talk
1048:talk
1037:Keep
1025:talk
1005:talk
985:talk
964:talk
943:talk
939:Snow
918:talk
896:talk
835:Keep
822:talk
804:talk
785:talk
771:talk
748:talk
716:talk
712:Snow
698:talk
676:talk
658:talk
636:talk
609:talk
584:talk
558:talk
516:talk
488:talk
469:per
458:talk
448:per
427:talk
394:talk
360:talk
346:talk
297:talk
249:talk
194:FENS
168:news
129:logs
103:talk
99:edit
852:eon
208:TWL
137:– (
68:or
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