540:
article can be recreated at the click of a button if he ever does play professional football. A breakdown of the poor quality external links 1) summary: Non-notable footballer joins big club, 2) Link actually states how non-notable the player is ("who will effectively not play for the first team") 3) Seems to be broken-link, 4)Total
Bouzanis content = "Dean Bouzanis", 5)Total Bouzanis content = "Young keepers Justin Pasfield and Dean Bouzanis were back-ups to Bolton over the last two years" (non-notable achievement), 7) Broken link, 9) "Dean Bouzanis g/k (New South Wales)," named in Australia U-17 squad, (a mile off meeting
1237:
are a list of things making him notable, when in actual fact all there is are a bunch of external links, most of them broken or rubbish. The ones that are not broken or rubbish document his non-notable achievements in football. I'm sure it is possible to find enough links in order to keep a vast number of non-notable people if we are prepared to spend long enough trawling the internet for them. The press often write about people that fail our inclusion criteria. This AfD seems to be boiling down to a debate over whether having a number of sports journalists write about a person makes them notable.
1414:, then that would definitely make Bouzanis notable, and render irrelevant any argument about whether being a reserve player with no professional appearances makes someone notable for inclusion in Knowledge. If you can provide a source which states this, please add to the article. Is the NSW Premier League fully professional? If not, then it can't be stated that it was the top tier of Australian football simply because the A league season had ended!
1428:- His Liverpool coach has publicly stated him to be the best Under 18 Keeper in the world and there is currently a debate as to whether he will play for the Australian or Greek national teams. He is definitely notable due to his appearance in newspapers and radio as speculation about his future unlike any other youth player. His achievements are notable for an Australian player and on an Australian only wiki, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
955:- is the fact that he is a promising player who (at this stage) could potentially play for for one of two national sides. This has generated interest in both of the nations involved and caused there to be significant coverage of the player in the mainstream press (examples given above and in the article). To me the
585:
I'm not really holding it against anyone, Its just very difficult to tell whether the sources contain any valid information because I don't read Greek. Most of the other sources are rubbish, the bottom 2 are unintelligible to me (and to most other people on en:wikipedia I guess). Anyhow I think that
385:
I understand the sentiment and it's certainly a noble one, but I don't think that should factor in to this. They are choosing a life in the public eye, and if they choose that before they turn 18, then so be it. There will be coverage of it. It's not like
Knowledge will generate new coverage, it'll
1236:
The first three things you mention are non-notable, unknown stats do not assert notability, playing reserve level football neither, he has not played at full international level or at the
Olympics so he is also not notable as an international footballer. Citing these things makes it look like there
1449:
is "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject". There appears to no dispute here that this article meets this criteria. The athlete additional criteria on
1288:
Most of the "keep" !voters appear to accept that this young man has achieved nothing of note in football but believe he should be kept because major news outlets have talked about him. How's that different from the case of Rhain Davis, the 9-year old Man U signing, who was all over the news for a
977:
Just to clarify, playing youth football at any level (other than
Olympic games) is not an assertion of notability. The only potentially valid claim for notability here seems to be that the sports press have written about him. His sporting achievements are way below the standard set by consensus at
426:
applies here. If the player goes on to make a league appearance for
Liverpool, or any other team that plays in a fully professional league, then the article can be recreated. If people waited until players became notable before creating the articles, then this process wouldn't be necessary. The
539:
people that imediately set about undermining it to preserve the status quo. This guy is unquestionable non-notable as a footballer, the only things saving him are 1) the fact he's from the
English speaking world playing for an English speaking club, 2) a poor collection of links 3) a picture. The
1362:- Reading through a number of sources he has been the topic of much debate in Australia over nationality, history, parentage, etc. Beyond that being a high-profile goalkeeper for one of the world's biggest clubs at 17 and playing age-group internationals well above his own age-bracket.
548:
they shouldn't even be in, having never come close to playing for the first team. And as for the links there are probably hundreds of potential links about Romeo
Beckham and Enzo Zidane, do we think articles about them should be kept if the list of externallinks is big enough?
52:
comes immediately to mind (apologies to non-Americans). This seems to be one of those times, as there unquestionably has been significant coverage of this young keeper in the media. And, most importantly, there are twice as many keep arguments here than delete arguments.
237:. This article could be deleted on a technicality. But be realistic - this is a non-stub, well written, well referenced article, about a professional footballer who just happened to have not yet reached our (completely arbitrary) standards. A perfect example of where
1314:. In terms of a personal feeling of why it shpuld be kept, is that coming from a country such as Australia, he is much higher profile there, just for having moved to Liverpool, than he is here (where he is just another reserve player). It was similar for someone like
1256:- So notability takes into account the quality of works by sports journalists. I was unaware of this, and press for immediate deletion. It is rated as start through Australian fields, it has nationalistic aspects beyond him being just a professional footballer.
909:
Both of which are guidelines, not policies. Consensus has been established that footballers are notable if they've made an appearance in a fully professional league. You're honestly saying that a footballer who's never played football is notable?!
427:
notability line has to be set somewhere. Yes, it is completely arbitrary, but it has also been established through debate and consensus by the
Knowledge community. For the moment, this player has not passed that line, and we should not
827:), I don't have much experience with article writing and know very little about the ins and outs of Australian/UK/Greek footballing arrangements so I'm sure they could be put to better use. Other sources found unclude
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If his career was to end tomorrow, we would be left with an article about someone who has never played a competitive match for a senior team. Not a notable sportsman by any stretch of the imagination. --
1389:- I agree his Liverpool career does not make him notable, but the loan spell to Sydney FC was as a professional player in the club's first team. While he was at St George Saints, the club was in the
1222:
His St George stats are unknown. He plays for
Liverpool reserves, has made great strides at International level. Has multiple articles written about him that override any notability issues.
443:
How can sportsmen who've never made a senior appearance be notable? The ignore all rules argument applies to the secondary sources which mention him, they do not confer notability.
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people they are associated with and information on them is included in the articles on those people. The press about Dean
Bouzanis is about him, not in reference to anyone else.
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with a circulation in the houndreds of thousands. Seems to be a decent source with a reasonable depth of coverage, it might be the case that there are more like it out there.
1450:
BIO does not supersede this as BIO states that ref the additional criteria "Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included."
307:
132:
48:. Both sides make very good arguments. These articles are usually deleted (and I have supported such deletions in the past). However, there certainly are exceptions;
947:
He has played football - he's played for both The Australian and Greek national teams at junior levels (U17 and U19). However I would say his main assertion of
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ot FOOTYN). 10+11) non-english sites. If this article is kept it will just encourage more editors to create articles on non-notable footballers to clutter up
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470:
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Well referenced, well developed article. This, as Chuq said, could be deleted as a technicality, but I think this article may be good enough to keep.
1336:
791:
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should be taken into consideration when citing external links as the main reason for saving an article from deletion in opposition to the
348:
The presence of multiple reliable sources supercedes the fact that he seems to fail WP:FOOTY. This is definitely a WP:IAR case per Chuq.
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which is the second tier of Australian football and for a time in 2004/5 was the top tier while the national league was in recess. -
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1410:- the article, as it is currently, does not assert that any appearances were made for either team. If appearances were made for
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guidelines. "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has received significant coverage" and the article is well sourced.
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above), but there does not appear to be the sort of substantial coverage I would expect if this chap were truly notable.
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where there was a lot of media exposure (in Australia) before he had played a game for Leeds (though that is of course
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Based on the evidence of reliable, independent secondary sources, then I believe it meets notability criteria of
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notability criteria. I could look the other way if the sources provided were more than trivial mentions (as per
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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short time last year but had his WP article deleted because he had achieved nothing of note in football......?
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Here are another couple of sources I don't think are currently being used in the article - from
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986:. Press attention does not equal notability, there are plenty of independent news items about
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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under the age of 18. However, according to the article he turns 18 in October of this year.
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The article is very well-referenced, and that should trump the professional league "rule". --
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1144:. It also says that failure to meet with the aditional criteria (such as those set out in
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because he has never played at professional level, (youth caps do not confer notability)
855:- still no league appearances and no full international caps = not notable according to
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to incorportate it. As it is it's just a Wikiproject essay that contradicts an official
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based on comments below. Acceptable amount of indepedent secondary coverage.
1411:
814:: Fair enough. Go and add them into the article and I'll switch my !vote.
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applies. Do you really think that someone who has played one match for the
49:
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should not automatically mean that all non-proffesional athletes are not.
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is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published
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is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published
1310:. I accept that it doesn't pass our football rules, I'm just following
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I don't like this trend of holding non-English sites against people.
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just compile and amalgamate from the coverage already in existence.
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means more than an arbitrary standard of having played one match.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
891:" as a base criteria. Saying that all professional athletes are
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I've added the references and some information into the article(
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per nom. Consensus is that youth caps do not confer notability.
1150:"is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included"
1142:, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject."
367:: for privacy reasons I think we should avoid articles about
1205:, which, believe me or not, are very inclusive criterions. --
1331:
As another proponent I would just like to comment that the
889:, intellectually independent and independent of the subject
723:"the oldest continuously-published newspaper in Australia."
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which in this case overrides the narrower requirements of
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Found another decent looking source detailing the player
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press coverage covers a period of over a year. Example
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should not be a criteria for deletion when there is a
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Contested PROD: Non-notable youth footballer, fails
217:'s list of association football related deletions.
1306:As one of those !voters all I can say to that is
494:However whatever the outcome, not meeting with a
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1477:). No further edits should be made to this page.
994:, but they do not and should not have articles.
465:(more sources found) - only one unquestionably
476:on its own but there might be more out there.
308:list of Australia-related deletion discussions
8:
1082:No fully pro appearances means non-notable--
834:but I'm not sure if they can be considered
1270:Essentially yes, and I would say it does.
657:and recreate when he makes an appearance
588:Knowledge:EL#Non-English_language_content
306:: This debate has been included in the
1099:no pro appearances hence does not meet
191:He meets the base requirements in the
713:I would again like to just point out
213:This discussion has been included in
7:
951:- the reason he has been covered by
797:(daily circulation over 100,000).
721:which according to our article is
472:). I'm not sure if it establishes
245:is more notable than Bouzanis? --
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262:The article quite clearly passes
746:The Daily Telegraph (Australia)
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
535:over a 4 month period. It was
1:
1124:The base criteria set out in
717:(used in the article) from
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1022:came about because of the
697:01:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC).
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1136:secondary source material
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883:secondary source material
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719:The Sydney Morning Herald
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1470:Please do not modify it.
469:and independent source (
32:Please do not modify it.
1445:, The main criteria at
982:and even further below
770:Fox Sports (Australia)
622:and see if there is a
243:New Zealand Knights FC
264:WP:BIO#Basic criteria
691:User:English peasant
215:WikiProject Football
1308:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
616:WP:FOOTY/Notability
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875:which gives
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1426:Strong Keep
1020:David Banda
992:David Banda
871:is part of
260:Strong Keep
1324:John Hayes
1272:John Hayes
1199:WP:ATHLETE
1179:WP:ATHLETE
1146:WP:ATHLETE
984:WP:ATHLETE
949:notability
912:WP:CRYSTAL
869:WP:ATHLETE
857:WP:ATHLETE
699:Change to
687:WP:ATHLETE
592:WP:ATHLETE
546:categories
542:WP:ATHLETE
474:notability
424:WP:CRYSTAL
407:Malcolmxl5
268:John Hayes
193:notability
145:WP:ATHLETE
1412:Sydney FC
1343:Guest9999
1203:WP:FOOTYN
1154:Guest9999
1138:which is
1084:Egghead06
1028:Guest9999
980:WP:FOOTYN
961:Guest9999
897:Guest9999
885:which is
840:Guest9999
816:Lankiveil
799:Guest9999
776:Guest9999
750:Guest9999
727:Guest9999
705:Lankiveil
695:Lankiveil
632:Guest9999
628:guideline
624:consensus
596:WP:FOOTYN
571:matt91486
529:consensus
508:Guest9999
504:guideline
500:consensus
478:Guest9999
388:matt91486
201:Gtstricky
57:faithless
50:O.J. Mayo
1452:Davewild
1430:Lympathy
1333:reliable
1140:reliable
1128:is that
1065:easily.
887:reliable
836:reliable
533:WP:FOOTY
467:reliable
133:View log
1408:Comment
1395:Tomperc
1304:Comment
1286:Comment
1254:Comment
1245:peasant
1240:English
1122:Comment
1105:Peanut4
1024:notable
1002:peasant
997:English
893:notable
853:Comment
795:The Age
744:- from
606:peasant
601:English
557:peasant
552:English
502:formed
459:Neutral
225:peasant
220:English
155:peasant
150:English
100:protect
95:history
1447:WP:BIO
1312:WP:BIO
1207:Angelo
1195:Delete
1182:Murtoa
1175:WP:BIO
1132:person
1126:WP:BIO
1101:WP:BIO
1097:Delete
1080:Delete
1067:Assize
1061:Meets
990:&
879:person
873:WP:BIO
683:Delete
655:Delete
620:WT:BIO
594:&
537:WP:BIO
441:Delete
429:assume
420:Delete
403:Delete
365:delete
333:Canley
314:Canley
251:(talk)
170:пﮟოьεԻ
165:Delete
128:delete
104:delete
1368:Londo
1320:WP:OR
812:Reply
363:Weak
131:) – (
121:views
113:watch
109:links
16:<
1456:talk
1443:Keep
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1201:and
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1063:WP:N
1059:Keep
1032:talk
1018:and
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337:talk
329:Keep
318:talk
304:Note
289:blab
278:Keep
247:Chuq
235:Keep
189:Keep
143:and
117:logs
91:talk
87:edit
46:keep
1322:).
1130:"A
914:.
877:"A
859:.
670:Ray
663:Ban
618:to
357:•
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