722:(my whole point above), Grey: ornothology was only a hobby, and the (rather thin) material on that aspect of his life (which makes no mention of serious scientific research) is wholly unsourced -- I would therefore take the 'distinction' with a touch of salt, Powys: again no indication of significant scientific research (just a large aviary, and some books of drawings), Fiennes-Clinton: no scientific involvement mentioned, McAlpine: no scientific involvement mentioned, Peyton: no scientific involvement mentioned, Hay: collected specimens & and a book privately published, but again no indication of significant scientific research, Wigram: no scientific involvement mentioned.
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not the president, and it's charitable-not-academic, per above) #7 (appointments are not contributions -- and those listed are generally more administrative than research-orientated). Also fails 'General notes': "It is possible for an academic to be notable according to this standard, and yet not be an appropriate topic for coverage in
Knowledge (XXG) because of a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject." I would further note that the article fails to articulate
683:"Our scientists in the laboratory and field, animal management teams at both zoos and our veterinarians contribute wide-ranging skills and experience to both practical conservation and the scientific research that underpins this work." "ZSL's Institute of Zoology offers research training through PhD studentships, and hosts undergraduate and masters level research projects conducted as part of our own MSc courses and courses at other institutions."
835:(1) The two main notable aspects (so far) are having an obituary published in the BMJ (British Medical Journal) and being Secretary of the Zoological Society of London (this is, as Sergeant Cribb points out, one of the main positions at the ZSL, the other being President). Having said that, he doesn't have an entry in "Who was Who", so he isn't that notable.
814:- I was asked on my talk page by User:Flying Fische to have a look at this article. I wouldn't normally respond to a note like this, but this is the sort of article and AfD I would work on if I had happened to notice it, so I am going to take a look at this, while disclosing here the reason I became aware of the article and the deletion discussion.
885:, BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL VOLUME 291 21-28 DECEMBER 1985, pp.1771-1779. The picture is figure 5 on page 1773 and is from 1945. All a bit scattered, but my view is that the existence of at least one obituary is sufficient to justify bringing the disparate threads together (if there was no obituary, that would be a different story).
1094:(2000–present). This is demonstrates that the position is a significant position adopted by those seeking to further their careers (such people do not take on such roles if they are not personally worthwhile). Chairing a committee, albeit a powerful one, probably isn't very interesting in itself, but
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no. 6 ("The person has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society.") Secretary of ZSL, no. 7 ("The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity.") vice chairman of the Mental Health
Research
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does not demonstrate that organisation is "highly selective", at least in terms of zoological contribution -- selectivity on social standing may be another issue, also it appears to be a charitable/conservation society, rather than an principally-academic one), #6 (was only the secretary of the ZSC,
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Being charitable is a legal status perfectly compatible with being academic or scholarly. The ZSL is a scientific research organisation as well, through its division The
Institute of Zoology. The Secretary is effectively the CEO of the organisation, he doesn't just open the post. Why on earth do
842:. Though repeating the same facts as presented in those two sources will be unavoidable to some extent, some more rephrasing would be best here, as well as bringing in some other sources. The phrase "enthusiastic founding member" in particular is something that needs to be put in quotation marks.
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Although the person lived and his life was documented the article does not assert his notability. Most of the information is about his relations, and the rest about his professional associations. There is nothing about what he did in his life to make him worthy of an encyclopedia article.
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no.3 ("The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (e.g. a
National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society) or a Fellow of a major scholarly society for which that is a highly selective honor (e.g. the IEEE)") as
1219:. I'm having difficulty finding good sources about him other than the BMJ obit, but I think that one may be enough by itself. Most of the argument above seems to boil down to "he doesn't pass this one special case, therefore he's not notable" which is obviously not good logic. —
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So here we have 9 out of 101 titled, two BLP whom I won't discuss, one with no recorded scientific contribution, four with some scientific credibility and one actually ennobled for services to science. Please do not assume that having a title makes it impossible to also be a
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The post of secretary is honorary and under the society's constitution carries the responsibility for the day-to-day management of the society's affairs. It is in effect the chief executive post without either the remuneration or the trappings of high office to go with
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for his scholarly contributions that should have been accumulating throughout his lifetime? Instead of that wealth of information, the only thing we have is his obituary--in other words, he made no impact at all apart from dying. Certainly the intent and spirit of
384:. This is not Wikilawyering, this is a clear application of a clear guideline. If you disagree with the guideline, get a consensus to overturn it. Oh, and no-one is suggesting that he is "notable for being a descendant of Charles Darwin", so why bring it up?
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with titled gentlemen of little scientific prominence. No, the president of a club or company is the CEO, the club or company secretary is concerned with administrative/procedural/regulatory compliance, not club/company direction.
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as what might pass for notability or significance in the outside world. For instance, the world might consider him notable for being a descendant of
Charles Darwin. But it takes a lot more than that to satisfy WP guidelines.
845:(3) There are some more sources if you search Google Scholar and Google Books carefully, but not too much there. It would help to locate another obituary if any others were published. I did find his marriage mentioned in
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849:(The Times, Friday, Apr 08, 1938; pg. 19; Issue 47964; col C), plus a radio programme called 'The Dangers of Health' that he presented in 1956 (The Times, Saturday, Aug 11, 1956; pg. 4; Issue 53607; col D).
689:"The Institute of Zoology is a world renowned research centre working at the cutting edge of conservation biology, specialising in scientific issues relevant to preserving animal species and their habitats."
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make it "a scientific research organisation". Most national governments also have scientific research organisations -- but that does not make national governments a scientific research organisation
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290:(1963 edn) (and I strongly suspect if you look at a copy of Debrett's from the same period, you'll find him there too, not that looking things up a common past-time amongst Knowledge (XXG) hacks).
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obviously. This is another stupid nomination of a perfectly fine article. I do not see why someone who happens to have notable relatives needs to have additional notability in order to fulfil you
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on 12 February 1958 titled 'The
Validity of Hallucinations' (The Times, Wednesday, Feb 12, 1958; pg. 9; Issue 54073; col A). There are also some hits on PubMed, and another picture of him in
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The issue about conservation: the ZSL's own words quoted above make it clear that as an organisation it regards itself as doing scientific research as an integral part of its mission.
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has basically been going around trying to get me permablocked, and delete any valid contributions for no apparent reason. Perhaps he should try doing something useful for a change.
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which suggests that
Fellowship is not as prestigious as I has thought. My comments on the position of Secretary stand. So, we may be down to two of the criteria for notability.
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588:, and it is uncivil of you to assume that I had not, and to call me stupid for not, as you wrongly guessed, having done so. The "litter" of titled gentlemen consists of
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that someone can only gain notability through their own actions. But of course, the article is going to mention the relatives! But look, he was a Fellow of both the
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and gave evidence about his condition at the
Challenor Inquiry (The Times, Wednesday, Oct 28, 1964; pg. 7; Issue 56154; col D). He also gave a lecture at the
838:(2) The article does need a bit of rewriting to move away from the language used in the BMJ obituary and to reduce the reliance on genealogical material from
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The
Zoological Society of London (sometimes known by the abbreviation ZSL) is a charity devoted to the worldwide conservation of animals and their habitats.
861:(The Times, Thursday, Sep 04, 1969; pg. 18; Issue 57656; col F). There is also a picture of Erasmus Barlow in a fairly long article about the takeover of
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869:, one of those guilds you get in London that holds dinners (The Times, Saturday, Jun 04, 1977; pg. 16; Issue 60021; col D). There is also an article in
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286:. Have you read the BMJ article? If not, how can you assert via the liberal use of innuendo that he has no significance? He also appears, btw, in
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in 1968 (The Times, Friday, Jun 21, 1968; pg. 29; Issue 57283; col D). It seems this
Erasmus Darwin was also Master (in around 1976-77) of the
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There is not one word about anything Barlow may have contributed to any academic field. Google scholar throws up nothing of significance
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obituary and a fellow of some well renowned organisations, although the article could do with some detail on his research papers. --
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Now let's turn to the nature of ZSL. That it has a research division makes it an organisation that engages in scientific research:
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that runs the Society. We have articles on all of the other Secretaries of the society, because they have all been notable:
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is a reliable source. The ZSL is a reliable source for its own activities. The Spectator is a reliable source. Plural.
936:, please place strike-out print over the text, so that we'll know exactly which comments you are withdrawing. Thank you.
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in the country, and many outside, would publish an obituary of someone that they did not consider to have contributed to
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eep. Article asserts notability, a number of important associations, and individual notability looks reasonably solid.
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per sources presented in discussion above and in article, sufficient in aggregate to render the subject notable per
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of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, they are notable" and I note that he meets
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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are that notability is a result of a lifetime of accomplishments that have been noted consistently through
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per Carcharoth's recap of the sources. The encyclopedia is better with this information than without it.--
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that says it was one Erasmus Barlow (consultant psychiatrist at St Thomas' Hospital, London) who examined
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So what if he was the secretary of this group? Did he do anything notable as secretary, according to
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I think I need to withdraw my argument based on FZSL. Neither Hrafn nor I seem to have spotted
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also mentions a couple of the companies he was involved with, such as the engineering company
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X does not make Y X. That I possess two hands does not make me a hand. That the US Government
314:. The rest of the article reads like a CV, with much of it in fact being nothing more than a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Medical science and technology at the Royal Postgraduate Medical School: the first 50 years
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The guideline you yourself cite clearly states "If an academic/professor meets any
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Yes, the Secretary is an important position. It is he who basically chairs the
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1110:" is clearly nonsense) make him four times notable. 16:35, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
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The issue about Fellows is moot, as it appears I was wrong about that status.
246:. There is an article on each and every one of the other secretaries of the
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746:(iii) The description of secretary you have given would appear to equate to
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substantiating notability here? And please note that sources is a plural.
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So as I said, all in all, I think there is enough here for an article.
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a division that happens to be a "scientific research organisation"
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an army does not make it an army. And so it follows that the ZSL
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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310:. The genealogical material is irrelevant, since notability is
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list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions
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you think social standing is the criterion for Fellowship?
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NOT a scholarly society. That it has a research division
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any specific contribution to either psychiatry or zoology
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You may wish to reconsider some of your remarks above.
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isn't a criterion. Before you say it, this is not "
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Category:Fellows of the Zoological Society of London
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832:Having now looked at this, my thoughts so far are:
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Robert Edward Fiennes-Clinton, 19th Earl of Lincoln
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867:Worshipful Company of Scientific Instrument Makers
982:of the Zoological Society, not "just" a Fellow.
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778:The issue about Secretary: I have provided a
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1192:Note: This debate has been included in the
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614:Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Grey of Fallodon
695:Independent's obituary of Sir Barry Cross
404:AS SUBSTANTIATED THROUGH RELIABLE SOURCES
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561:question without having done so?) It is
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406:" (emphasis mine). Where are the
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288:Who's Who in Finance and Industry
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474:criteria #3 (
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429:Flying Fische
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1078:(1982–1984)
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1032:John Barlow
855:George Kent
425:user:Qworty
149:free images
1256:Xxanthippe
892:Carcharoth
816:Carcharoth
752:reports to
678:scientist.
551:themselves
316:WP:COPYVIO
280:physicians
50:Eluchil404
1299:wintonian
1278:Arxiloxos
1272:, passes
1217:Weak keep
1201:• Gene93k
1178:• Gene93k
1016:Committee
980:Secretary
913:this page
871:The Times
851:The Times
847:The Times
754:the CEO.
738:possesses
734:possesses
730:possesses
553:. Peruse
188:BigJim707
1050:(1903);
859:Dataprep
547:DOES NOT
284:medicine
260:obituary
116:View log
1314:Qrsdogg
1102:", or "
909:Comment
840:Burke's
812:Comment
472:WP:PROF
468:Delete:
348:WP:PROF
327:WP:PROF
305:Delete.
262:in the
155:WP refs
143:scholar
89:protect
84:history
1274:WP:GNG
1150:WP:GNG
1123:Qworty
1002:Qworty
938:Qworty
559:stupid
470:fails
412:Qworty
357:Qworty
340:WP:BIO
252:WP:GNG
127:Google
93:delete
998:WP:RS
762:Stalk
758:Hrafn
634:- BLP
628:- BLP
574:Stalk
570:Hrafn
491:Stalk
487:Hrafn
408:WP:RS
382:three
344:WP:RS
331:WP:RS
323:WP:RS
256:WP:RS
254:(and
170:JSTOR
131:books
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1318:talk
1310:Keep
1291:Keep
1282:talk
1270:Keep
1260:talk
1252:Keep
1243:T@lk
1225:talk
1205:talk
1182:talk
1158:talk
1146:Keep
1127:talk
1117:and
1006:talk
988:talk
960:talk
942:talk
921:talk
896:talk
857:and
820:talk
791:talk
710:talk
512:talk
451:talk
433:talk
416:talk
390:talk
361:talk
338:and
336:WP:N
296:talk
242:the
229:Keep
220:talk
211:FZS,
202:Keep
192:talk
163:FENS
137:news
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
54:talk
46:Keep
1294:BMJ
1238:JFW
700:it.
652:- ?
400:one
378:one
271:BMJ
265:BMJ
240:AND
177:TWL
114:– (
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