Knowledge (XXG)

:Articles for deletion/Esraa Owis - Knowledge (XXG)

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459:, it does not say "a combination of sources adding up to SIGCOV". And I've literally never seen anyone attempt the argument that this clause doesn't require the SIGCOV to be IRS. Coverage of people in non-routine events can absolutely still be routine. NOTNEWS does not limit this in any way. What has been found so far is not even personalized "hometown coverage", it's churnalized results announcements with no more than 551: 523: 555: 731:
We would expect post-match interviews to be only five or six minutes and only focusing on the game -- instead, these interviews are much longer and were conducted in what seems to be an in-studio news segment setting. I want to emphasize clearly that we need the assistance of an Arabic speaker to say
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This is all just in the first 2 pages of results. I really don't think there's a question that the notability guideline is met, it's just that the sources are mostly in Arabic so we'll need to translate them for inclusion in the article. Honestly, I have yet to find a recent Olympian in athletics who
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as examples of what could be a primary source. Surely a lengthy news segment interview on a subject would fall under "depending on context" and could be used to establish notability? Also, the way the footnote is written, it makes it seem like only opinion-piece interviews are discussed and not news
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The "keeps" are largely based on the slew of references provided early on in the discussion; however, nobody arguing to keep has presented evidence here as to how these sources constitute WP:SIGCOV. The argument that interviews are admissible is an oversimplification; interviews may count toward GNG
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Israa Owais, a player in the Egyptian track and field team, won the gold medal in the long jump competition at the Arab Games currently being held in Algeria. Israa Awis succeeded in winning the gold medal in the Arab Games after achieving a distance of 6.54 meters in the competitions held today in
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being IRS SIGCOV. But you can't just claim that their close reflects any sort of consensus or even suggests broader disagreement while simultaneously ignoring the far more prevalent examples of closes supporting the view that only the secondary, independent material in an interview may count toward
347:. There is explicitly no carve-out for athletes that allows us to assume IRS SIGCOV exists when no such sources have been identified. The whole point of SPORTCRIT #5 is to ensure that athlete bios are not based on achievements or participation, as those criteria were deprecated by global consensus. 1019:
It is common for multiple newspapers or journals to publish the same story, sometimes with minor alterations or different headlines, but one story does not constitute multiple works. Several journals simultaneously publishing different articles does not always constitute multiple works, especially
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Mostafa Amr, a player in the Egyptian track and field team, won the gold medal in the shot put competition at the Arab Games held in Algeria from July 5 to 15. Amr succeeded in winning the gold medal at the Arab Games after achieving a distance of 20.52 meters in the competitions held today in the
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Re: Refbombing, I don't think it's productive to say that other editors are providing too many citations in AfD discussions where the point of the discussion is to evaluate sources. I plan on making a best effort at translation, but the reason why I linked and will continue to link sources in AfDs
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Looking at the links, 1) doesn't contain any news interviews, 2) only comments that the particular interviews used were primary and does not make a sweeping claim about all interviews, 3) doesn't seem to contain any news interviews but instead promotional interviews for his books (?), 4) makes no
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actually supports keeping this article, because it says to keep sports notability criteria as long as it's not participation based (i.e. simply attending a meet). But in Owis' case, she has won multiple major international medals which goes beyond simply participating. I think you are conflating
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cited in the article. A 3-sentence blurb that contains nothing beyond the results of an event is certainly not enough to meet SPORTSCRIT. The second piece is by the same news agency as the first (the Kooora piece is functionally identical to a Kas News piece) and so these definitely don't even
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I was actually having an unrelated discussion with the administrator when they opined on interviews unprompted -- I wasn't looking to find a point of view one way or the other and I'm trying to enter discussions with an open mind. It seems intuitive to me that if a reputable news organization
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this provision was intended to aid us in expunging the plethora of sub-stubs sourced to databases and lacking any significant coverage that would allow us to write a well-rounded biography ... SPORTBASIC #5 was never intended, nor should it be misused, to trump or overrule the more general,
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Israa Owais, the Egyptian track and field player, won the gold medal in the long jump competition at the Arab Games held in Algeria. Israa Owais succeeded in winning the gold medal after achieving a distance of 6.54 meters in the competitions held on Tuesday evening in the Algerian city of
982:, the first link has three brief sentences announcing her event results. That is routine news coverage on its own, but it's also clearly lacking in any secondary analysis as the specifics are just substituted into the boilerplate announcements put out by Kooora and Kas News for 485:, yes the sentence argues for the opposite of deprecating NSPORT -- it says to keep it in place, which it currently is. SPORTCRIT prong 5 could certainly be filled by combining sources as NBASIC allows for, however it's important to note that has no bearing on whether or not 810:. Just because specific examples of primary sources are listed in the footnotes does not mean they "aren't policy".It is absolutely acceptable to characterize someone's behavior at AfD as "refbombing". It is breathtakingly entitled for you to dump a bunch of sources that 527: 589:
that supports your claim that multiple non-SIGCOV sources can constitute "a source providing SIGCOV". The community !voted to override NBASIC in the case of sportspeople in an RfC that was much more recent and global; that takes precedence.You are refbombing more
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without being excessive is to see what the community thinks about them even if neither of us can read Arabic natively. I greatly respect your encyclopedic contributions and hope you can extend the same respect to me and can refrain from making personal comments.
535: 694:. There's nothing wrong with linking many sources in an AfD discussion. In fact, I think they should all be addressed -- I see you left comments on five of the sources, but there are still 13 on just the first two pages of results that need to be looked at. 612: 501: 621: 505: 710:
I think what will help with precedent is getting the interview issue settled. It has come up more and more often and I think it's unsettled. My personal (editor, not admin) POV is that if X media outlet chooses to interview someone, there's something
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Al Ahly TV is her own sports organization, so that interview obviously fails as primary and non-independent in multiple ways.If this is the extent of the coverage you're finding on her, then we are severely lacking in anything approaching SPORTCRIT.
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Israa Awis ended her competitions in the high jump qualifiers without qualifying for the final stage. Israa Owais is participating in the Olympics for the first time in her career. Israa Awis achieved a record of 6.20 metres after three successful
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Israa Owais, the national team player and strongman, bid farewell to the long jump competitions, within the Olympic Games competitions hosted by Paris. Israa managed to jump to a height of 6.20 meters, coming in fifteenth place in the first
724:. So, taking context into consideration, what can we say about the 26-minute ONTime Sports news segment (plus various clips) and the 30-minute Al Ahly TV news segment, both of which seem to be solely about Owis? 162: 1020:
when the authors are relying on the same sources, and merely restating the same information. Similarly, a series of publications by the same author or in the same periodical is normally counted as one source.
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Comment: Note that it could be difficult to find sources in English language media. She may be notable as an Arab woman athlete winning medals in African championships and qualifying for the Summer Olympics.
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GNG. How could content that someone says about themselves ever be secondary and independent, anyway? And I know you're aware of these examples since I've linked them to you in the past, so why are you only
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The University of Nevada, Reno Libraries define primary sources as providing "an inside view of a particular event". They offer as examples: original documents, such as autobiographies, diaries, e-mail,
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Acknowledging that "interviews may count towards GNG" if conditions are met, can we discuss the substance of the news interviews found so far, or if not them, then the other undiscussed sources linked?
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The result was delete. I am more persuaded by the delete arguments around the necessity of independent sourcing for a BLP then keep arguments that articles that are basically interviews are independent.
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competition. You can look at the links I provided to see the identical formatting, and also compare to the contemporaneous announcements put out for others in her cohort. They are pure fluff.Kooora:
701:-- This simply isn't supported by Knowledge (XXG) policy. I recently had a discussion about an unrelated article with an admin just this week about this, and this is what they said this week at 230: 1015:
For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage
686:-- As an English speaker, I simply can't read all of the sources I am finding in Arabic, so I pasted the plausible ones here so that someone who does speak Arabic can look them over. Also, 568:
doesn't meet the bar with some digging; the Olympics still have significant cultural purchase and athletics is the marquee sport so typically if someone qualifies, the coverage is there. --
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Regardless, if we combine the found articles from multiple independent organizations (not just the Koora sources) we can certainly say the coverage is significant in this case fulfilling
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closer who holds the idiosyncratic opinion that interviews can somehow count towards GNG based on "the fact that they chose to interview them" rather than anything about the interview
119: 218: 396:, all athletes must cite a source with IRS SIGCOV. Trivial and routine coverage does not establish notability, and that is the extent of what can be found on this athlete. 836:
conducts a long-form interview, that speaks to the notability of the subject, and I haven't been able to find any Knowledge (XXG) policy contradicting that practice here.
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The quote that you're citing and have cited in past discussions is not directly from any Knowledge (XXG) policy, but is from a sub-bullet of a footnote of a section of
324:. A search in Arabic on Arabic news sites only returned routine, trivial event announcements (e.g. 0–3-sentence lightly-refactored boilerplate text announcing results 888: 884:
is absolutely not true ... The community !voted to override NBASIC in the case of sportspeople in an RfC that was much more recent and global; that takes precedence.
156: 331: 625: 519: 234: 222: 886:– No, the community absolutely did not !vote to override the notability guideline for people, as said by the user who established SPORTCRIT in the first place: 51: 603:
This is on a site with no evidence of editorial control, attributed to someone with only two articles total, and identical to pieces on other sites that each
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referenced entirely to WP:PRIMARYSOURCES and Q&A interviews that cannot support notability with no evidence of reliable source coverage shown at all.
307:, has sources and the nomination does not indicate that any effort was put behind it. I.e. effort might have been put behind it, but it isn't shown. 214: 340: 334: 328: 325: 608: 497: 365:, thanks for doing the research and finding those sources. I think that if we combine the paragraphs to establish notability (which is allowed per 337: 856:
which I think should be met in this case, and 6) only speaks to specific "Q&A interviews" but not news interviews nor interviews in general.
671:, NBASIC is only mentioned once and it's not in the context of overriding it. They are separate policies and broad over-arching guidelines like 547: 508:). If you consider all of these "churnalism", then surely the series of at least three in-person interview clips conducted by ONTime Sports ( 1098: 271:, many sources exist under her Arabic name "اسراء عويس". Multiple-time major international championship gold medallist so clearly meets 775:
This article on a tattoo artist is sourced mainly from interviews. Being primary sources, they don't help us establish his notability.
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I think the pieces for meeting SPORTCRIT and GNG have been presented. Can you explain why all 15 sources are "severely lacking"? --
720:. The word "interview" is in fact never mentioned in the Knowledge (XXG)-voice text on that page other than to say that interviews 770: 729:
Is Ojala (or anyone in comparable position) being interviewed as a matter of post match interviews, or is it more substantive?
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Run-of-the-mill sports announcements are not enough to demonstrate notability, and athletes are required to have a source of
92: 87: 60: 56: 515:) would count as sufficiently journalistic sources? One of them looks to be a 26-minute news segment all about the subject. 1108: 1030: 667:-- Can you please link to the not-vote where this happened? From my read this isn't what happened in NSPORTS2022. Reading 96: 1057: 926: 177: 144: 543: 123: 79: 202: 839:
I am still curious about the justification for discounting interviews. The only mention you cited earlier, in
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Using a search for "اسراء عويس", I see four different news stories on just the first page of Google results (
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is fulfilled (which it clearly is in this case via criterion 2, multiple gold medals at major competitions).
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prong #5. Coverage about a hometown athlete qualifying for the Olympics is not routine -- there are strict
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There are interviews, and a number of performance listings but nothing independent, or significant enough.
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announcementsd. No number of functionally identical three-sentence results updates can amount to SIGCOV.
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The result was delete. Interviews are primary sources so the delete argument is the policy based one.
312: 840: 717: 687: 683: 1042: 1026: 969: 819: 763: 647: 472: 401: 352: 170: 676: 366: 184: 1073: 414:, thanks, the NSPORTS2022 closure actually does not say anything about IRS, and it in fact says, 961: 548:
Israa Owais after saying goodbye to the Olympics: Enough negative talk, it's making me nervous
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There is a general consensus that the NSPORTS guideline still has broad community support
369:), we have a good case to be made here. The consensus you're referring to established by 979: 965: 150: 1038: 1022: 829: 815: 797:
when they have intellectually independent content; that has not been demonstrated here.
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SPORTCRIT prong 5 could certainly be filled by combining sources as NBASIC allows for
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The Pharaohs in Paris.. Israa Owais bids farewell to the Olympic Games competitions
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of her on a government website (not independent, not SIGCOV).In-person interviews
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interviews may count toward GNG when they have intellectually independent content
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Israa Owais, the track and field athlete, officially qualifies for the Olympics
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other opinion pieces, including (depending on context) reviews and interviews
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Have none of the keep !voters actually read any of the proposed sources...?
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and insist that other editors must prove each of them to be insufficient.
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Full interview | Israa Owais.. Al-Ahly player and Egypt national team star
536:“A golden heroine”... Israa Owais, the owner of historical achievements in 493: 418:. At the time that statement was made, this is what NSPORTS looked like: 494:
Paris Olympics - Israa Owais finishes her competitions in the qualifiers
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That sentence is in the context of deprecating NSPORT entirely, it is
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There's also a 30-minute TV interview with her here from Al Ahly TV:
343:). Nothing approaching the in-depth secondary independent commentary 433:
and there is no guarantee or schedule of such an event occurring. --
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much more, but it seems like a lot exists here for Arabic speakers.
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The community !voted to override NBASIC in the case of sportspeople
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No comment on this specific case, but in response to your claim:
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at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage
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still apply even where more subject-specific guidelines exist.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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This is absolutely not true. There is no logical reading of
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After 3 successful attempts, jumper Israa Awis fails in...
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Sports News: Israa Owais bids farewell to the Games in...
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Israa Owais wins gold in triathlon in athletics at the...
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accepting admin AfD judgments as evidence of consensus?
624:: This is the same 3-sentence article I linked earlier. 467:. That is not GNG and is not even an indication of GNG. 109: 105: 101: 852:
comment about interviews in general, 5) actually says
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constitute "multiple" sources of coverage.Kas News:
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In-person interviews are primary and non-independent
1066:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 935:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 690:only refers to putting unnecessary citations in an 552:
Israa Owais ranks 15th in the long jump competition
183: 345:required to be cited in all sportsperson articles 540:Israa Owais wins gold in triathlon at Arab Games 532:Israa Owais wins gold in long jump at Arab Games 394:regardless of meeting a sport-specific guideline 213:Note: This discussion has been included in the 708: 451:not stating that NSPORT as it was is supported 388:NSPORTS2022 established global consensus that, 8: 67:Help, my article got nominated for deletion! 806:The WP:OR treatment of interviews is still 275:. I added the first two to the article. -- 212: 727:Quoting the admin comment on this issue, 620:Essentially the same announcement as 1. 558:. These are all from different sources. 457:a source providing significant coverage 1018: 1014: 1009: 998: 992: 887: 883: 853: 844: 803: 795: 788: 781: 774: 767: 728: 698: 664: 637: 616: 599: 586: 582: 415: 18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion 7: 374:achievements with participation. -- 611:: This is a trash webscraper/UGS. 24: 832:, thanks for finding these links. 217:lists for the following topics: 52:Introduction to deletion process 634:are primary and non-independent 1082:18:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 1047:21:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 1031:19:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 974:13:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC) 945:13:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 902:23:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 874:14:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC) 824:21:32, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 745:12:57, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 652:22:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 578:20:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC) 477:20:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 443:13:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC) 406:18:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC) 384:17:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 357:03:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC) 1: 317:16:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 300:15:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 285:13:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC) 261:10:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 207:09:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC) 520:Egypt's champion Israa Owais 498:Who is Israa Awis? | Profile 463:apiece originating from the 660:, thanks for your response. 628:: This is literally just a 461:three boilerplate sentences 42:(AfD)? Read these primers! 1125: 1099:AfD debates (Biographical) 1011:the city of Oran, Algeria. 518:There are more on page 2: 390:regardless of achievements 455:. SPORTCRIT #5 requires 703:Special:Diff/1245933378 420:Special:Diff/1076787937 1000:city of Oran, Algeria. 773:: admin nom statement 713: 124:edits since nomination 812:you haven't even read 40:Articles for deletion 1109:Relisted AfD debates 431:qualifying standards 231:Sport of athletics 1084: 1078: 947: 890:overarching rule. 722:depend on context 663:Re: paragraph 1, 263: 57:Guide to deletion 47:How to contribute 1116: 1074: 1070: 1065: 1063: 1061: 934: 932: 930: 607:claim a byline. 465:same news source 258: 253: 246: 242: 215:deletion sorting 199:Vanderwaalforces 188: 187: 173: 117: 99: 37: 1124: 1123: 1119: 1118: 1117: 1115: 1114: 1113: 1089: 1088: 1080: 1068: 1056: 1054: 942: 925: 923: 712: 592:routine trivial 256: 251: 244: 240: 130: 90: 74: 71: 34: 31: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 1122: 1120: 1112: 1111: 1106: 1101: 1091: 1090: 1087: 1086: 1072: 1064: 1050: 1049: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1008: 997: 991: 950: 949: 940: 933: 919: 918: 917: 916: 915: 914: 913: 912: 911: 910: 909: 908: 907: 906: 905: 904: 880: 879: 878: 877: 876: 861: 857: 849: 837: 833: 733: 725: 714: 709: 706: 695: 680: 669:WP:NSPORTS2022 661: 636:. 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Index

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
Esraa Owis

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Esraa Owis
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