1185:. Consider what Conn is doing: He wants to sell his product. He knows that his command line stuff is never going to be in the news again unless he shoots someone. But there still is a market for that product segment and he wants to reach his customers. It's pretty likely he relies mostly on people discovering him through search engines. So now the problem is how to show up everywhere, even when people are searching for his competitors or for other terms that suggest they're a good prospect. His solution is to write a page on that topic (and every other he can think of that's next on the list) and title it a review or some such. With luck, it pops right to the top in Google. When people get to his page, he sells them his own product. You're looking at an ad page, one of many he's designed, hoping they'll let him show up high on Google for various search terms. This also is not like
1220:
be in the news again unless he shoots someone." and he has written this review for "people searching for his competitors". If this is the case then
Knowledge should definitely have an article for a product for which people are searching on Google and want information about it. I clearly understand what you are trying to convey Msnicki, but this thing only adds to the notability of the subject. It is so notable that competitor of the product has to write about it and compare with his product to convert potential
921:, it must have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." It doesn't appear to me that findmysoft even bothered to fact-check where their writer went to school. They certainly don't have any reputation we can point to. At best, all you're offering is your assurance that it looks good to you. And that's just not enough to clear the bar as a reliable independent secondary source at AfD.
1364:(emphasis added) Rex Conn and JP Software have the most obvious conflict of interest one might imagine: He wants people to buy his product not this other one (if you were even considering it). He is thus not independent. You can't use this source to establish notability. There are just too many things wrong with it.
1533:, which has a reputation for fact-checking and fair reporting. They make money doing it but not because they have a financial interest in the stories they report. This is so basic, we do agree on one thing: There is no point is arguing this with you. You will never give up, no matter how obviously wrong.
1057:, doesn't get much coverage in mainstream publications, and there are many other examples of programs with a fairly wide user base, but without much coverage in popular media. That lack of coverage is quite understandable, but it shouldn't lead to the deletion of articles about significant programs. --
1219:
notable enough to compare it with his product (even if his intention is to make his product look superior than his competitor's product). Rex Conn is a professional researcher and developer in this field and we can't ignore this fact. You wrote: "He knows that his command line stuff is never going to
1113:
I think your characterisisation of Conn's blog as being widely acknowledged for its extremist views, relying on rumours, etc. is wrong. I maintain that he is the author of the leading program in the field of replacements for
Microsoft's cmd.exe and that gives his opinion in this case extra weight. --
798:
sources for good reasons that match the guidelines but that, as a matter of pride, he's unable to admit a mistake, strike through his !vote and change it. (Once wrong, stay wrong!) SmackoVector, I can see you're new to WP, but when the evidence says you're wrong, you need to be able to get over it.
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Even if he is the only person running the company, it doesn't make any difference as he is a professional researcher and developer in this field. It can be clearly seen by reading the reviews that they are not quickly generated or user submitted content unlike some cheap download directory review. It
684:
and not mere publisher's description. Jerome
Johnston has graduated from the Computer Science Faculty and he learned a lot about programming and Information Technology. So he is not just an another content writer paid to quickly generate crap content. Its a genuine review and there is no doubt about
1357:
However, less direct interests can be harder to see and more subjective to establish. For example, much scientific research is often funded by companies with an interest in the outcome of the experiments, and such research makes its way into peer-reviewed journals. Journals themselves can also have
1304:
but still that won't make much difference. He only writes about the field of subject in the blog. He is a professional researcher and developer in this field. Weblog material written by professionals writing within their field are acceptable. He has contributed in this field and also in open source
793:
I was about to make the same point, but you beat me to it. What the heck is the "Computer
Science Faculty"? I don't think this individual has any credentials at all. It's impossible to verify the school he says he went to even exists. I suspect by now that SmackoVector has to know this "review"
492:
Yes. You are right. He clearly has a sales motive and the review is also more negative (obviously no one will write great things about competitor's product). But still it is notable as competitor's review is not a primary source. His reviews and articles are already used as sources on
Knowledge (at
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and whether appropriate sources have been cited but whether they exist. If it's a content problem, that can always be fixed and we should (and I do, all the time) !vote to keep. But if suitable sources do not exist, that cannot be fixed. In this case, those sources do not exist. But maybe they
570:
they can. Like CNET they only review selected software that meets their quality criteria and they just place publisher's description for lesser known software. CNET is a bigger software directory than findmysoft.com . That doesn't make it unreliable. findmysoft.com is certainly a reliable source.
461:
Oof. I just read that Rex Conn blog item. There's a bit of my life I will never get back. Did you read this thing? If you really can't make it through the whole thing, at least take a look near the bottom where he's a got a chart comparing his own Take
Command product to FireCMD, concluding,
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This is not Rex Conn's personal blog as I said earlier. He doesn't write about what he did last weekend. Its JP Software's blog maintained by Rex Conn. JP Software is a different entity even if he is the only person running the company. This is the description about the company: "We
1144:
or if bolding the particular words I relied on just wasn't a big enough clue. I am NOT claiming Conn's blog represents extremist views or that he relies on rumors. I AM claiming it lacks editorial oversight, that it's promotional and that it's personal opinion. That makes it
995:? Only findmysoft source is used to establish notability. I don't think we should continue this discussion. Neither I will be able to convince you nor you will be able to convince me. You have given your vote and I have given mine. End of Discussion.
1254:
The guidelines do not provide that a subject is notable if only Rex Conn (or any other individual you personally happen to think is an authority) writes something on his personal blog. To the contrary, the guidelines label that kind of source
1428:
What does it take to get this across? Conn has a financial interest in publicizing that his product is better than FireCMD. That's the only reason he's writing anything about FireCMD. It's the same reason he's written blog posts trashing
493:
least I have found couple of articles). If this was the only source supporting the article, I would have definitely changed my vote to "delete" but still there is an another source (findmysoft) which makes me to stick on my decision.
829:
Well, I found too many "Computer
Science Faculty" when I searched on Google. He must have graduated from any one of them. We are not here to discuss biography of Jerome Johnston. There is no reason or evidence to consider this as
1294:
by refugees from the corporate wars who wanted to have a little more control over our results and fun in our lives. Our primary products are command processors, tools that assist the user in working at the command line (the C:\:
707:
Doubtful: Jerome
Johnston's self-written page on findmysoft has the appearance of a person lacking any academic credentials (perhaps a high school student - that's the kindest interpretation that can be made from the material).
464:"Summary: FireCMD in its current form doesn’t offer any significant advantages over the other Windows console replacements I’ve reviewed in parts 1 – 6, and it only has a tiny fraction of the features available in Take Command."
519:
It is one thing to cite a blog item as a source for a claim in an article here on
Knowledge. That's allowed. It is something else to claim notability based on a blog item. That's not allowed because notability requires
913:, where the standard is that you need multiple reliable independent secondary sources. Each of those words has a more technical definition here than in everyday conversation. For example, it's not enough that a source
954:
sources can never be used. Of course they can, exactly as you found in the Java article. But note that it wasn't used to establish notability of the subject, only to establish that Sun Java 6 Update 11 was probably
1021:. Who knows how long that article will stick around before it's nominated for deletion. Third, there is a difference between no usable sources cited and no sources available. Here at AfD, the question isn't about
329:
Sources have editorial integrity and are independent of the subject. Subject was quite notable when searched on Google. Editors: Jerome
Johnston (findmysoft) and Rex Conn (jpsoft.com). Rex Conn is a developer of
214:
This article was recreated in substantially the same form with substantially the same motley mix of primary sources, unreliable blogs and on-line catalogs as was offered last time when the outcome at AfD was
183:
676:. Rex Conn has found it notable enough (even if his intention is sales of his product). findmysoft.com has found it notable enough. Findmysoft is also not just a catalog site like CNET: Check this:
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said but it shouldn't lead to the deletion of article. Knowledge also advises to use some common sense while following the guidelines. I think there is no point in debating anymore. Goodbye.
435:
clearly seems that editors have used the product before writing the review. They have mentioned both the pros and cons about the product. These points clearly suggests editorial oversight.
764:
82:
668:. Not an editor review, but they have found it notable enough to include in their respected and reputed directory. And I don't understand why you have given the search type as
136:
664:
What if findmysoft.com does not have an article? 90% of the sources used all over Knowledge don't have a Knowledge page. CNET has included FireCMD in their directory :
251:
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1624:- No significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The whole discussion of the blog above is pointless as it fails to be both independent, and a
177:
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page for that update. Was findmysoft a good enough source for that purpose? Well, who cares. I can't imagine arguing that one, since the point is so minor.
1296:
prompt) and with batch files. We currently offer products for Windows XP, Windows 2003, Windows Vista, Windows 2008, Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 2012."
734:
It seems you're having difficulty parsing the author info. Academic credentials are clearly mentioned as graduation from the Computer Science Faculty. Link:
1053:– I, too, was struck by the fact the the author of the leading product in this area, Rex Conn, felt moved to write about it. Further, even Conn's product,
143:
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Re: sourcing, we make a distinction on Knowledge between deciding whether to have an article and what it should say. Here at AfD, the only question is
632:. Another difference is that because CNET isn't primarily a catalog site, their standards are higher. findmysoft may have a "review" of FireCMD, but
1487:
because he found it notable. He found that people are searching for it. This type of software doesn't get much coverage in mainstream publications as
1030:. But have some faith in the guidelines. If it's genuinely attracting attention, someone will write about it in a reliable source soon enough.
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Its not a personal blog. Its Jp Software Company's blog. Weblog material written by professionals writing within their field are acceptable.
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and useless in establishing notability. If you can't accept the guidelines as rules we will all agree to play by, why are you here?
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834:. This is not the matter of pride for me but for you Msnicki. You seem desperate to win the discussion or delete
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1590:- Nothing notable from RS. If it wasn't worthy 3 months ago with the same information, it's not worthy now.
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write reviews because of financial interest. Even if Conn has a financial interest the fact is he wrote about
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Even if Rex Conn is writing it, it's still a personal blog. The only editorial control is whatever he wants.
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an organization is clearly not independent of any topic that organization has an interest in promoting.
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is a genuinely respected and notable source and we have an article on them. They're owned by
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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http://jpsoft.com/blogs/2013/05/windows-console-replacements-part-7-take-command-and-firecmd/
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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1085:"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with
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You know that he must have graduated from somewhere because he says so on the internet?
1079:
source, as required to establish notability. To the contrary, it is the essence of a
799:(I change my !votes all the time when new sources or better arguments are offered.)
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1300:. This means he is not the only owner. If you still doubt you can find and provide a
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I'm not sure if you're having difficulty parsing the "or" in the original text of
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by any way. But I will assume good faith. Sources are not primary sources and are
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219:. My request for speedy deletion was contested. Okay, we're back to AfD again.
846:. findmysoft sources are used all over the place. Even on pages as important as
1449:
of these products, which, btw, has about zero probability of ever happening.
269:(there is no new information, at least one of the non-reviews is a dead link)
1479:
Everyone in the world who are in business have some financial interest. Even
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1075:
My objection isn't that Conn's blog piece is negative, it's that it's not a
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of FireCMD. He's just writing hit pieces on every competitor he can find.
1565:
for some of your essential points. Start with one (preferably several) for
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as the "leading product", etc., as support for the followup assertions.
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his competitors, no matter how obscure. This is absolutely, positively
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First, that's the German site. They can do what they like. Second,
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Of course I read it. Nothing there worth discussing. Start with
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1097:. ... The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited."
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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will soon. Often with new products, it may just be that it's
1398:. JPSoft and Rex Conn does not have an interest in promoting
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http://download.cnet.com/FireCMD/3000-2094_4-75910134.html
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Caution must be used in accepting sources as independent.
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sources. Findmysoft.com is a catalog site. From their
1183:, doesn't get much coverage in mainstream publications"
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conflicts of interest due to their funding sources.
1529:is a legitimate and respected news source owned by
1394:This guideline is for the subject. The subject is
1313:. This is not useless in establishing notability.
674:http://news.cnet.com/1770-5_3-0.html?query=firecmd
1149:and unsuitable for establishing notability under
736:http://www.findmysoft.com/author/Jerome-Johnston/
293:are publications with clear editorial oversight.
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1659:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1177:It's perhaps worth following up on your remark,
1093:in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and
767:to understand why there's nothing to discuss.
334:and is an expert in the field of the subject.
252:list of Computing-related deletion discussions
83:Articles for deletion/FireCMD (2nd nomination)
1607:Only marginal sources and not many at that.
237:list of Software-related deletion discussions
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250:Note: This debate has been included in the
235:Note: This debate has been included in the
1349:Knowledge:Independent#Conflicts_of_interest
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1628:as we would define it on wikipedia. --
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1298:http://jpsoft.com/company/company.html
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1445:publishing an actual article about
993:http://de.wikipedia.org/AudioExpert
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1561:It might help if you provided a
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678:http://www.findmysoft.com/news/
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
287:http://firecmd.findmysoft.com/
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1353:"Any publication put out by
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946:But that doesn't mean that
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840:independent of the subject
917:reliable, but that, from
1648:Please do not modify it.
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32:Please do not modify it.
1179:"even Conn's product, "
957:released on Dec 3, 2008
1292:are owned and operated
1087:no editorial oversight
961:official release notes
73:AfDs for this article:
1402:and are independent.
1215:. Rex Conn has found
1213:User:Michael Bednarek
320:few or no other edits
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1091:promotional
1077:WP:RELIABLE
991:What about
522:WP:RELIABLE
468:taking note
318:) has made
178:free images
54:Crisco 1492
1028:WP:TOOSOON
948:WP:PRIMARY
630:findmysoft
1653:talk page
680:. Its an
37:talk page
1655:or in a
1571:TEDickey
1228:buyers!
1083:source,
769:TEDickey
765:| google
710:TEDickey
568:anything
526:About us
316:contribs
271:TEDickey
137:View log
39:or in a
1592:Caffeyw
1535:Msnicki
1485:FireCMD
1451:Msnicki
1400:FireCMD
1396:FireCMD
1366:Msnicki
1261:Msnicki
1222:FireCMD
1217:FireCMD
1191:Msnicki
1155:Msnicki
1101:Msnicki
1032:Msnicki
1023:content
965:Msnicki
836:FireCMD
801:Msnicki
638:Msnicki
566:review
534:Msnicki
472:Msnicki
406:Msnicki
354:Msnicki
221:Msnicki
184:WP refs
172:scholar
110:protect
105:history
93:FireCMD
68:FireCMD
1622:Delete
1605:Delete
1588:Delete
1447:either
1151:WP:GNG
528:page,
267:delete
217:delete
156:Google
114:delete
50:delete
1563:WP:RS
1441:like
1347:From
1302:WP:RS
915:seems
199:JSTOR
160:books
144:Stats
131:views
123:watch
119:links
52:. —
16:<
1634:talk
1630:Whpq
1613:talk
1596:talk
1575:talk
1539:talk
1527:CNET
1525:But
1497:talk
1481:CNET
1455:talk
1443:CNET
1408:talk
1370:talk
1319:talk
1309:and
1307:4DOS
1265:talk
1234:talk
1195:talk
1187:CNET
1159:talk
1120:talk
1105:talk
1063:talk
1051:Keep
1036:talk
1001:talk
969:talk
856:talk
805:talk
773:talk
743:talk
714:talk
691:talk
642:talk
624:and
614:CNET
610:CNET
577:talk
538:talk
499:talk
476:talk
441:talk
410:talk
380:talk
358:talk
340:talk
332:4DOS
327:keep
312:talk
299:talk
289:and
284:keep
275:talk
225:talk
192:FENS
166:news
127:logs
101:talk
97:edit
58:talk
1438:NOT
1432:ALL
1295:-->
1189:.
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950:or
636:.
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564:not
206:TWL
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