1216:. I have reconsidered my vote and now support a Keep with a rewrite making it clear that 1) This is a theory not a fact; 2) stating the divergent view including statements from the Kennedy family debunking the notion of the curse; and 3) keeping the list of curses to only those that were put forth in the original curse publication (Klein book), not things like Ted Kennedy's cancer death or Eunice Shriver's death from a stroke at age 88. --
402:), the "Kennedy Curse" is not a tabloid judgment but a well-documented part of U.S. folklore. (And that's how it should be described – not, as some may imply, as a factual problem, as if some being had it in for the Kennedys. "Curse" here is largely understood as shorthand for a string of bad events.) By well-documented, I mean that there are
584:
In the hours after the article was nominated, sufficient sourcing was added to remove any original research problems. Needless to say, the death of Ted
Kennedy provided an excuse for the media to remind us of the curse, the litany of tragedy, etc. Katie Couric practically dictated revisions on last
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The article has existed for over 5 years, and hasn't noticeably improved in that time. An AfD two years ago didn't improve it. It was tagged for improvement in
October 2008, and nothing happened. It appears, as a result of this AfD, that a bunch of reliable sources about the "Kennedy tragedies" have
254:
It may be that reliable sources on the topic of the "Kennedy Curse" exist. However, Knowledge (XXG)'s "Kennedy Curse" article has existed for over 5 years, and even underwent an AfD almost 2 years ago, yet still has not been able to accrue even one reliable source that actually mentions the "Kennedy
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to write an article on the "Kennedy Curse", we have yet to see any concrete evidence that it can be done, and we certainly don't have an article on it now. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but first there would have to be some reliable sources discussing the concept, and that would have to be
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Appears to consist entirely of original research. Based almost completely on one 1999 CNN article which doesn't even mention a "Kennedy Curse". Of the other 3 sources used in the article, two are not reliable and also don't mention a "Kennedy Curse". The third (from
Newsweek) is used as a citation
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the term was used in the book title creatively, and i doubt it advocates that there is a "curse" on the family. this article is just a list of tragedies befallen the kennedy family. a large, prominent family. do the math. i doubt if anyone of note will ever mention this idea seriously. if we dont
665:
Well, thank you for withdrawing your nomination? You have just stated that the article you wished to see deleted is on a topic which you say is notable. I don't need to remind you, I hope, that AfD is not for deletion (though your comments above suggest otherwise), and in the time it took you to
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have references to the use of the term "curse" beyond casual or nonserious use, after all these years, then this article isnt really about its subject. since the tragedies are all listed in other articles, no info would be lost. the term is mentioned in the article on kennedys, so redirect there
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listed at Google Book Search that include this term. Not only does this provide a rational for keeping the title (versus trying to dig up reliable sources for "Kennedy tragedies" or any other attempt at renaming), but it should also provide months of reading for anyone who wants to improve this
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and merge if there's anything to be merged. The opening paragraphs of that article already describe this in enough detail. And, as has been suggested above, at what age does the curse end and who decides this? Or how horrific do the deaths have to be? Just not enough for an encyclopedia in my
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There are a ton mentioning "kennedy tragidy" and "kennedy curse" written in many newspapers if you google one. Discussing how tragic some of the kennedy members are. I have seen plenty of kennedy tragidies discussed in many newspapers. Just google one. This is not as there is an entity called
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Maybe to take the heat off of the title, maybe we should make it "Kennedy curse" instead of "Kennedy Curse," which implies that they are technically "cursed." Maybe it should simply become "Kennedy tragedies," but I think "Kennedy curse" returns more entries than "kennedy tragedy."
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A brain tumor isn't a "natural cause"? What? Was his brain invaded by aliens? Is it a symptom of anthropogenic global warming? Was his brain actually robotic so any tumor there would be unnatural? Did you actually manage to successfully search for "kennedy tragidy"?
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and redirect; it's a tiny bit better, as of today, or at least last moment I looked, than it was when I AfD'd it in '07. But it's still a matter of finding, for every entry, a reliable source that says this is part of a "Kennedy Curse". Really, one paragraph in
765:. It's a commonly known term. I don't think it's unfathomable that someone might search for this exact term to see a list of tragedies that have befallen the Kennedy family. Although, perhaps it would be better to rename it to "Kennedy Family Tragedies".
666:
respond to all the valid keep votes here you could have produced that entire article on the notable topic. It's plain and simple: AfD is not for improvement, and the quality of an article is to be judged separately (not here) from its subject's notability.
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Well, AFD then is not the answer. Hard work is the answer. It is the job of an encyclopedia to cover what is notable, if this is notable then it should be kept whatever state it is in and written into a proper article using reliable
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either but the beliefs do exist. As does the belief in this "curse". Ted
Kennedy made reference to it in his Chappaquiddick speech. I suggest the title should be something like "Kennedy curse theory". Someone just moved it to
520:, which is not exactly natural cause. Anyone that died naturally is fine. Ted Kennedy is little tragic too because of cancer. But this also needs a source whether ted kennedy should be included part of the kennedy tragidy.
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a glossary of terms that people might be looking for. If they want to see a list of tragedies that have befallen the
Kennedy family, there are many articles on Knowledge (XXG), starting with
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The only attack here so far is the comment you just made. Not only is it grossly inaccurate (considering that I've responded to only 4 of the 16 Keep/Merge votes), but it's inappropriately personal to link to
240:. Case closed, I believe. The article needs editing: that timeline/list needs to go, to be replaced by a prose section based on the many, many reliable sources that can be found easily through Google already.
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The lack of improvement of an article in intervening years is not a good argument for deletion. There are many google hits in google books for this. The "curse" is so well known that it has been mocked in
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that makes mention of the "curse"; and then put the contents of this article into something like "List of
Kennedy Curse tragedies" or whatever, and then people can argue about what belongs on such a list.
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516:"kennedy curse," but some of these newspapers generally talk about the misfortune of the kennedy family not exactly saying they are cursed, but they are unlucky. Well the reason is Ted Kennedy got a
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night's news. Geez, the 1960s was practically summarized as "His brother was murdered, he broke his back in a plane crash, another brother was murdered, he caused someone to drown".
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now been added, but that doesn't help much, since the article is ostensibly about the "Kennedy Curse". In other words, lots of people have various theories about how this could
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348:" but who is to say which of the examples are tragedies? I agree with jpgordon that only examples with a reliable source referring to the "Curse" should be in the article.
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Knowledge (XXG) should not get into political correctness. The subject is in the popular folklore (like it or not) and
Knowledge (XXG) will serve to provide coherency.
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opinion. Anyone who searches for the term will end up at the family article where they will find out much more about them than a supposed curse I would hope. --
307:. The subject is certainly notable. The information is verifiable. Simply because the article is currently a mess is not a reason to delete. Obviously, as
912:. While it is discouraging that no clean up was conducted after the last AfD in the long period since the last, need for clean up is not reason to delete. --
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article. Given the tremendous quantity of reliable sources, it would be absurd to delete this article. Just mark it with an "improve" tag if necessary. ~
362:
Yeah but, the article doesn't actually say anything about the
Kennedy Curse; rather, it's a list of people alleged to be evidence of the Kennedy Curse. --
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=%22kennedy+tragedy%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
602:
This is is covered enough widely in mainstream media to be considered notable. Google books proove that scholarly sources are available on the subject.
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http://www.google.com/search?q=kennedy+curse&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
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Perhaps you misunderstand; nobody has claimed that the "Kennedy Curse" is not notable. We might even need an article about it. We don't have one. --
1071:
Fortunately, this discussion can be closed after a couple more days. It appears that the consensus, although not a snowball, is overwhelming.
656:
Exactly. It might be nice to have an article on the "Kennedy Curse". So far, we don't. Even with the addition of several more reliable sources.
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=%22kennedy+tragedies%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
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I agree the article should be more about the concept of the curse itself with only cited examples in it. I'll help it along a little more.
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460:- there has been long discusion of "kennedy curse." This has been discussed and not cooked up by anyone. Leave it as it is. Maybe
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Good news, I just bought a book on it for £0.90. I'll expand this article when the book arrives, seems a very interesting read...
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500:? That's the whole problem with this. Oh, maybe Ted should be included. And how about Eunice? She got old. That's tragic too. --
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You know, perhaps attacking every person who disagrees with you is not the way to marshal an article through AfD.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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726:"Kennedy deaths"? Eventually they'll all be listed then; I don't think any of them are immortal. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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880:. The notion of a curse is original research at best, based on one or two articles at best.--
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have been written on the subject, the potential for a full article exists. —
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a proper article, but no-one seems to be able to actually make it into one.
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398:. As I've noted on the talk page (after moving the article back to
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Huh? What does "political correctness" have to do with anything?
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1280:- a notable term, well sourced, no valid reason for deletion. --
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for events that occurred 15 years after the source was written.
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It is "kennedy tragedy." I'm sure you understood what I meant.
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Curse". I am not optimistic, at this point, that it ever will.
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This is a very notable subject and it is properly sourced.
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it is clear that the term is widely and commonly used by
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should cover the whole thing. Oh my, it already does . --
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Articles for deletion/Kennedy Curse (2nd nomination)
335:Most people do not take seriously the beliefs that
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680:Not sure why I would withdraw it. While it may be
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1307:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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706:List of Kennedy deaths, crimes, and maladies
1054:. Perhaps you should review Matthew 7:5.
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341:American government planned 9/11
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238:"History of the Kennedy curse"
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1199:Per Malick78 and WastedTime.
888:) 22:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
337:the moon landings were a hoax
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910:mainstream reliable sources
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890:Reconsidered. See below. --
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712:article true to its name.
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339:or that the
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1235:—Preceding
997:) has made
962:—Preceding
948:) has made
600:Strong keep
518:brain tumor
488:) has made
465:brain tumor
462:Ted Kennedy
174:free images
1265:MrDolomite
1108:flat earth
633:sources...
379:MrBlondNYC
350:MrBlondNYC
56:Wartenberg
1181:Aww nuts!
1131:The Onion
1090:Edward321
1073:Mandsford
747:Himalayan
639:Himalayan
608:Himalayan
587:Mandsford
1237:unsigned
1112:Malick78
995:contribs
976:contribs
964:unsigned
874:Redirect
833:Redirect
784:Comment.
728:jpgordon
714:PhGustaf
682:possible
621:jpgordon
537:jpgordon
502:jpgordon
432:jpgordon
364:jpgordon
297:jpgordon
141:View log
1138:JoshuaZ
1052:WP:DICK
236:today:
180:WP refs
168:scholar
108:protect
103:history
1218:Crunch
1056:Jayjg
1010:Jayjg
892:Crunch
882:Crunch
870:Delete
807:Delete
793:Crunch
703:Rename
687:Jayjg
668:Drmies
658:Jayjg
446:Jayjg
442:become
412:(talk)
409:Jeff Q
288:Delete
257:Jayjg
242:Drmies
213:Jayjg
152:Google
136:delete
112:delete
1259:WP:OR
1173:Abce2
1104:Keeep
1036:Maker
1031:Music
857:wicke
811:C6541
498:WP:RS
319:Maker
314:Music
309:books
195:JSTOR
156:books
139:) – (
129:views
121:watch
117:links
16:<
1286:talk
1278:Keep
1269:Talk
1255:Keep
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1201:3.14
1197:Keep
1168:Keep
1159:talk
1151:Keep
1142:talk
1134:here
1126:keep
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991:talk
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957:Keep
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791:. --
771:talk
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458:Keep
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324:5376
305:Keep
279:talk
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222:Keep
188:FENS
162:news
125:logs
99:talk
95:edit
51:Jake
48:. —
46:keep
876:to
849:dle
844:can
835:to
202:TWL
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