1378:: There is nothing wrong with this article and entire world agree for this fact. Afd proposed to achieve political agendas, discriminatory to millions of people in India, especially the minorities, 'Lower' castes. This theory is OR and had been debated thoroughly and rejected by academics and progressive political parties in India."world specialists on ancient India", voicing "mainstream academic opinion in India, Pakistan, the United States, Europe, Australia, Taiwan and Japan" on the issue, is now part of a concerted campaign encompassing well-known scholars and hundreds of teachers and parents against this 20th Century idea.
1568:. "Indigenous Aryanism" gets enough Google results to be notable on its own, and it looks like there are good sources for describing Indigenous Aryanism as an ideological position. However, it may be more useful to have this material in the same article as the Out of India stuff, as that might give the reader a better idea of the role these theories play in contemporary Indian politics and culture, as well as international Vedic scholarship. I have to say I'm disturbed by the tone of this discussion, the AfD seems like it's about attacking a particular author rather than a sincere discussion of the content of the article.
896:
fair and adequately referenced. That this is not the mainstream theory held on a global basis is made clear. Any effort at suppression of any POV by technical arguments, or by detailed discussion of the weakness of prima fascia RSs, or by merging in such a way as to diminish the influence or the number of articles of the minority group in such matters is to be guarded against by resolving doubts by keeping the article. (And personally, I skip over discussions of the editors involved; I think most uninvolved people here would do so also, and so I do not see the purpose of such attacks.)
1484:]). Dab is STILL misquoting the sources in the article (items ref in (3) and (7)). He refuses to provide correct citation for controversial statements in the article or to remove the statements. I have been working with a third party mediator to tackle one issue at a time. Dab refuses to participate in the mediation effort. The question is do we need 2 article on Knowledge (XXG) to discuss same content? AIT is long established article for same content that is better referenced than this article and includes efforts of lot more than 1 editor.
744:. Although some of the better referenced material (Witzel's comments after being made NPOV) from this article should be moved to that page. The article still has lots of errors, items identified with footnote 3 and 7 are misrepresentation of the referenced material. This article doesn't add any new value to the discussion, but is full of all kind of original research.
519:
vote-stacking surrounding this AFD are interesting, care to explain this? I'm not involved in any way with the RFC on
Dbachmann, which was not started by me. My decision to put this article up for discussion came after the AFD for the Nicholas Kazanas article which made me again for a short time active on wikipedia, where I began a discussion on the
1517:]. It would definately make it easy to work with Dab if he followed WP:CIVIL policy. I made effort over 4 months to resolve this, how long can I keep clapping with one hand. I am still having difficulty understanding how enforcing WP:ATT on all editors evenly is not the best solution to this controversial problem. Don't allow anyone's POV.
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rejects linguistic relations and the only theory this can be compatible with is "Out of India". Bryant made this clear statment (2001 page 6), that I have explained to you number of times with exact words from Bryant. I also explained to you yesterday why joining 2 words and creating argument is OR, we need peer reviewed material
871:"Hindutva revisionism"? You mean the article title should not only be confusing and "OR", it should also be pov? What else do you want to include into this "wider scope"? The Holocaust revisionism in India is currently not carried out by the Hindutva folk. So what kind of other "Hindutva revisionism" are you talking about?
756:- Per rudra comment about a home for the kookery, the fact it is well referenced and that Google alone should not decide deletion - many notable things are not referenced elsewhere on the Internet - that is what makes Knowledge (XXG) important, especially articles that are written with non-Internet sources.
1146:
1505:
15:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)- Also in light with the request for deletion, it is misplaced as in the same request a suggestion to "merge" is also made, merge has a seperate template than afd, and if merge was the objective than the appropriate tags and discussion should have been placed and made. If the
1481:
Could you please clarify who do you refer to when you mention "retire from
Knowledge (XXG)". I initiated RfC against the creator of the article (after making effort for 4 months on different article to remove OR and explain basic policy like WP:ATT to an admin). The article only has some sources NOW
784:
wanted by those pushing for deletion. Because it would lead to removal of material from articles on subjects of legitimate scholarly concern, and thus lose "air time" for the fringecruft that seeks to gain respectability by association. The IAM and OIT articles are disasters already - reducing them
1285:
In that case can you demonstrate couple of things 1) How is this article different from AIT and why should it not be included as subsection there. AIT is better referenced article, more encyclopedic article for same content. 2) Why does the article not say upfront that this is about sentimennt that
895:
It is essential to the neutrality of WP that articles about historical theories espoused by different political groups be maintained equitably. That such a theory is under attack as representing the view of only a nationalist group, is all the more reason to support it. The article seems reasonably
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its antecedents and, thus since the 1920s, (b) the relation between the Vedas and the IVC. Everything else is secondary. Bryant does not cover these aspects in any particular depth. But they are the core of the "position", and rife with fringecruft. The point of this article in WP is to offer a
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trying to make definitive statements about OIT (and even if they do, the theorising usually ends at the Hindu Kush), or dismiss linguistics altogether. Bryant's book as a source is unfortunate, because as anyone familiar with the popular literature knows, the indigenousness of the Aryans has to do
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the project as a propaganda tool? Much to the contrary, it requires an extra effort to screen out the propagandist pov-pushing and create a solid and well-referenced article describing their approaches. "Indigenous Aryan" is just one central aspect of this propaganda stunt, and I agree the article
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the most commonly used name in
English should be used. You said on the IAT talkpage "A decent cleanout of offtopic observations on Nazis, imperialism and 19th century Romanticism just used to add spin ("Role in Imperialism and Nazism") would reduce it to about half its present size; the "Political
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Exact quote, in case you were interested: "The theory of the indigenous origin of the Aryans has been advocated by a number of scholars." A footnote says: "This
Appendix is based on a long note on the subject prepared by Prof. S. Srikanta Sastri and most of the arguments are advanced by Mr. K.M.
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Turn the pages of elementry school pages of any Indian school syllabus you will learn the truth, I believe those who are proposing Afd too know the truth. "If history was easy to change, Man would not have been using internet".Those who made efforts to change history are themself wiped off from
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with something else that does so. It is evident from the fact that is has had to be semi-protected that the subject must be controversial. If so, it must ensure that there is a neutral point of view, by ensuring that both sides of the argument are presented with their strengths and weaknesses
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Even if it were correct that Bryant's term is about the same thing that the article is about (which I doubt), the term is not in current use outside the work of Bryant. Bryant is notable, but not every term coined or used by him must automatically be so. The term IAT was already used by H. V.
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If
Bryants book as a source is unfortunate, this means that you are also somehow confused over the article title? I admit I am still confused over the article title, and its relation to Bryant's use of the term (in my opinion Bryant uses it as a synonim for OIT). Which authors on history then
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it is not, as you can read up in the article. "OIT" is shoddy scholarship, while "Indigenous Aryans" is nationalist propaganda. The two overlap, of course. Bakaman's google search is spurious of course (surprise, surprise), since it includes the "theory" part which we want to get rid of by a
518:
Win has not voted on this AFD. I am also not responsible for the personal attacks that the involved editors exchange with each other on the IAT and other articles. If this article gets merged, I am resposible that there will be one page less where they can exchange this. The allegations of
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indicates the intentions of the article. I know Dab is quite knowledgeable on the topic, but
Wikipolicy does not allow that as an excuse for him to express his views indiscriminately on Knowledge (XXG) articles. For example, most of the "Mainstream rebuttals" created by Dab on pages like
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per RF's nom. The article does not conform to a neutral point of view, nor is it a justifiable fork of the AIT and
Hindutva articles. An encyclopedia is not meant to promote new interpretations - the views of Bryant and Sen deserve acknowledgment but within the main article.
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done by our resident "Hindutva half-dozen". It is time we protected
Knowledge (XXG) more effectively against such attacks, since attacks they are. This AfD is just a little incident in this epic story, of course, but it is very instructive on the present state of things.
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anyway. (as you can extrapolate from
Bakaman's 'dabcruft' neologism, this isn't even about any topical issue for him anymore, he just follows me around wikipedia and tries to disrupt things in various small ways). "Indigenous Aryan position" is just a term for what
134:
Here we have an article that claims to be about the "ideological position" that may manifest itself as "Out of India Theory", and that seems to have been created to paint views such as the "criticism of Aryan migration theories" as some sort of
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The fact that the issue is loaded with political implications is not a criterion for deletion (I know it's not cited as one, but it's obvious what's going on here). There's northing wrong with the article, it looks very referenced to
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wow, Indian elementary school syllabus is now "Truth"? Would that be before or after the 1998-2004 indoctrination stunt by the BJP government? I suppose we should turn to
Turkish elementary school syllabus to establish the Truth of
1267:"indigenous Aryans" can be proposed without any sort of "out of India" concepts (such as, by ideologues who ignore linguistics or reject Indo-European as a colonialist conspiracy). Neither article is a true sub-topic of the other.
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a term like "Indigenous Aryan(ism)" for the subject to remain in limbo otherwise. Conjoining "indigenous" and "Aryan" in a phrase has been around for a long time, earlier than 1963 for sure. (Try Vol I (1951) of Majumdar's
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and many other theories, but Knowledge (XXG) has not articles only on the psychological motives or ""ideological position" for these theories. Such claims belong in the article of the theory, not in a separate article.
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Personally, I think "Indigenous Aryanism" might have been better, or even "'Indigenous Aryan' Thesis" (note the two levels of quotes). And I disagree with your reading of Bryant. It's fairer to say that Bryant would
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articles. The remaining part of the article could be safely merged as a section into the OIT, AIT and Hindu nationalism articles. Most of it can easily find place in OIT, and the rest in the other two articles.
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1204:. I have no problems with your views being included on the article saying that "The theory is associated by some as Hindutva propaganda". But the fact that you believe this article is worthy of moving to
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where you can show everyone who Hindutvavaadis are evil historical revisionists while the 19th Western people that made the idea of a migration into India are learned and had no political motivations.
532:
Wend Wiki sems to know nothing on the situation but quick to assign names to people. How about you add "Dab is incapable of failure" and "all those who oppose him are trolls" to your statement as well?
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advocate IAT as opposed to OIT? The creator of the article has defined the article this way: It is about the ideological position that may manifest itself as OIT, among a couple of other positions.
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Just to clarify Rayfield (RF) has neither "certified" or "endorsed" the RfC. On talk page of RfC he has provided some advice (which any fair person would have difficulty disagreeing with) to Dab
1132:] due to hard work of lots of editors. So what exactly is the point of creating another article for same topic. There is some good content in this article that should be moved to AIT article.
572:
I did not say that the content should be deleted, did I? I said that it should be best merged into OIT and the other articles, or at the very least a non-confusing article title be found. --
968:
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to not follow this ideology. Funny tough he should write a dissertation on Hindutva (sympathetic), and then, for completely unrelated reasons, come up with a "out of India" suggestion),
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allow propagandists, or those misled by propagandists, succeed in pretending that their propaganda does not in fact exist and its discussion belongs "deleted". Quoth the arbcom, "
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338:) prefer to call things like "exciting new emerging evidence found by eminent professors" (and permutations, ad nauseam), which is hardly preferable as an article title.
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1468:. Apart from the article having it's merits and being well sourced, the proposer has since decided to retire from wikipedia on the same day as this afd. He Had also
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The AIT article should be split, and be merged to IAT and other articles? AIT is the most common name for that article, while IAT is not common at all. And by policy
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I suggest that this article be merged as a section into the mentioned articles, or that at least a suitable title for this article is found. Such a title could be
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and religious issues" could be merged here, while "Early history of the theory" could be summarized in the IAM article." What is meant by a decent cleanout? --
740:- The linguistic claims in the article can fit in OIT page, the historical, ideological and socio-political aspects of the discussion are already covered in
1506:
content can be added to the other article, then deletion / redirection suggestions can be looked at, but I think that should precede a request for deletion.
682:, Appendix to Chapter X.) If you want a subject title like "Indigenousness of Aryans to the Indian Subcontinent", say so, instead of quibbling. Thanks.
82:
77:
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article; this is all editing business, not Afd business, and we'd have rectified things month ago were it not for our resident Hindutva trolling team.
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home for the kookery, rather than have the nonsense vitiate other subjects. There really is no "debate". It's all jingoistic pseudo-historiography.
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The "meta" issue here, as I'm sure you realize, and as I'm equally sure no one is prepared to admit, is that isolating kookery is precisely what is
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the article, you will note that this is not the case. "out of India" can be proposed without "indigenous Aryans" ideology (Schlegel; Elst at least
1501:
I refer to user Rayfield, or RF as the User signs. I correct my above statement-RF had "particpated" in a rfc and taken a stance opposed to dab.-
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particpated in a rfc against the creator of this article, and taken sides with a person in dispute with the creator- the motive seems suspect.
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I would argue against widening the scope, as Hindutva revisionism involves more than just fulminating against 19th century straw men.
463:, by a POV-pushing contingent of editors. Article is extremely well referenced. This discussion belongs on a talk page, not at AfD. -
443:
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910:- I know little of this subject, but if it is to be kept, it needs to be expanded to provide context, or alternatively it should be
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Per rama's and others. This page is way too POV. THe existing pages can use what's here and assimilate it in a more NPOV manner.
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I request opinions on this article, which since its creation has been a magnet for edit-warring (with WP:3RR and other problems)
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561:, well sourced and referenced. We don't have to like it. On the other side, considering the whole history of this article ...
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appears to claim to have invented the term in a 1997 Columbia dissertation (now he is at Harvard), and presumably uses it in
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or Indian Urheimat Theory, and we have an article for that. The creator of the article may disagree with my opinion here. --
356:
Follow? The pages have been on my watchlist since time immemorial, I dont need to follow you around to see what goes on on
1161:. But of course, if Knowledge (XXG) wasn't spammed by Hindutva trolls, it would be much easier to reach FA quality again.
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discussing possible merges and splits on the talkpage you know. Regarding "formerly featured", that's a joke. See
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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since I kept pushing to include sources (look at the previous version to see how many citation you can find
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We already have an article for historical, ideological and socio-political aspects of this controversy as
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I have a proposal... instead of screaming at me find a new title, would be a meaningful use of your time
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And looking at the content, I see no reason why it cannot be merged to OIT, AIT and Hindu nationlism. --
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Comment:I have read that book. In my opinion, Bryant's "Indigenous Aryan" is just another name for
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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to equate the two (mainly because he considers linguistics important), but this confuses the
1644:- Merge with OIT and delete. Article reads like a POV fork in parts. Title is neologism.
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1177:]. Interesting comment about "trolls", since you are sole source of the OR in this article.
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405:- I'm not saying the term doesn't exist, merely that it doesn't warrant its own article.
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are unsourced while the "Pseudoscientific arguments" put forward are very well sourced.
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It does not need a separate article. Knowledge (XXG) has articles on theories like
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The term is an inherent neologism, not being cited in any of the works explicitly.
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just because there are a couple of editors on Knowledge (XXG) who attempt to
609:. The IAT == OIT reduction is absurd. Generally, writers in the IAT rubric
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and vote-stacking which surround this AfD as well as the conveniently timed
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per Rama's Arrow. Is a POV-fork, Dab's suggestion of moving the article to
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too, since they expose crank views as crank views? The fact that you vote
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Could I suggest you make some effort to comply with the civility policy?
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About one half to two thirds of this article can already be found in the
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is what it looked like. FACing something like this today would violate
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sorry - moved comment up - was intended to refer to Bakasupram's one
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Please stop playing word games. No one has to wait for someone to
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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use of Knowledge (XXG) for political propaganda is prohibited.
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merging with OIT and AIT is proposed as per original request
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and is uncited in any sort of academic journal. This page is
1364:, I would have said similar but in a more toned down manner.
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Sreenivasa Murthy in 1963 in A History of Ancient India. --
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and of a lot of uncivility and disputes on the talkpage.
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articles. Insufficient notability and repeated content.
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Ideological positions in the Indo-Aryan migration debate
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Are you referring to your own personal attacks above?--
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then argue for merging, what is this doing on AfD?? I
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Dab, you said that this article was the equivalet of
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Category:Propaganda in the People's Republic of China
927:- Most contents in the article can be found in the
497:repeatedly referring to Dab as a "hypocrate" (sic)
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39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1427:? -- hindutvapedia.com!) if that's what you want.
360:, or any of the hundreds of pages on my watchlist.
1454:. It looks to me well-sourced and well-written.--
1128:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)
1099:or whatever you prefer, but Knowledge (XXG) will
933:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)
819:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)
742:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)
501:. I forgot to mention the numerous violations of
128:Aryan Invasion Theory (history and controversies)
1666:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1153:. FAC criteria were rather different back then.
650:implications of mainstream linguistics with the
1052:just out to get rid of something you don't like
805:, per the discussion on talk, either to simple
716:, I, Section II". That's 1955, if you please.
509:the same series of editors are involved in. -
507:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment/Dbachmann
385:- insufficient notability per above searches.
485:referring to the article with the derogatory
222:his book published by Oxford University Press
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1130:(AIT). That article was a featured aritcle
614:with (a) the indigenousness of Hinduism in
164:Out of India Theory (Ideological positions)
1411:, then? And, it would follow, to pre-2005
1149:: That was back in 2004, under the title
1054:. We have entire categories that discuss
1068:Category:Propaganda in the United States
680:History and Culture of the Indian People
1060:Category:Propaganda of the Soviet Union
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1208:means that it is just a POV-fork of
1206:Hindutva and historical revisionism
1202:Hindutva and historical revisionism
876:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions
434:. Per proven lack of notability.--
24:
1415:curriculum to learn the Truth on
785:should be the order of the day.
481:Actually I would be referring to
984:Hindutva historical revisionism
654:concerns of the IA "school".
523:, which you can read there. --
1:
152:Paleolithic Continuity Theory
1604:per Rama's Arrow. way pov--
1034:huh? are we going to delete
521:Talk:Indigenous_Aryan_Theory
49:-- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider)
809:, or to a wider scope like
459:, coinciding with numerous
183:- The term nets a whopping
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1413:Dover Area School District
980:Hindutva and pseudoscience
815:Hindutva and pseudoscience
714:Glory that was Gurjaradeśa
455:. Bad faith nom using AfD
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1628:as a matter of course. --
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1659:Please do not modify it.
1064:Category:Nazi propaganda
32:Please do not modify it.
1070:. And we're suppose to
139:. The article has also
66:Indigenous Aryan Theory
58:Indigenous Aryan Theory
1093:Hindutva pseudoscience
1151:Aryan invasion theory
1255:if you would please
1097:Hindutva revisionism
811:Hindutva revisionism
1587:Out of India Theory
1539:Out of India Theory
1210:Out of India theory
1089:Hindutva propaganda
1076:Hindutva propaganda
1050:shows that you are
989:Out of India theory
929:Out of India Theory
334:(or should we say,
234:Out of India Theory
148:Armenian hypothesis
124:Out of India Theory
831:, or be a concise
801:(no brainer), and
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821:should be either
807:indigenous Aryans
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141:neutrality issues
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908:Perhaps Keep
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511:WeniWidiWiki
489:at this AfD
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465:WeniWidiWiki
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436:Vox Rationis
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137:Hindu nazism
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46:No consensus
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31:
28:
1570:--Akhilleus
1456:Yannismarou
1409:Pan-Turkism
1040:revisionism
931:and in the
799:speedy keep
648:theoretical
277:free images
126:and in the
1109:constantly
915:exposed.
712:Munshi in
503:WP:CANVASS
332:proponents
1646:Sarvagnya
1396:Comments:
1380:John Paul
1312:Fut.Perf.
1083:could be
185:132 ghits
162:or maybe
1591:goethean
1519:Sbhushan
1486:Sbhushan
1399:history.
1328:Domitius
1290:Sbhushan
1179:Sbhushan
1134:Sbhushan
881:Rayfield
746:Sbhushan
495:user:WIN
487:dabcruft
444:contribs
218:This guy
189:dabcruft
110:View log
1618:ThuranX
1421:WP:FORK
1159:WP:SNOW
420:Johnbod
403:Comment
283:WP refs
271:scholar
225:Johnbod
214:Comment
83:protect
78:history
1631:Ghirla
1602:Delete
1508:Haphar
1503:Haphar
1474:Haphar
1470:raised
1366:Mathmo
1261:claims
1072:delete
1044:delete
976:Delete
957:Delete
925:Delete
912:merged
853:Addhoc
758:mceder
738:Delete
432:Delete
407:Addhoc
387:Addhoc
383:Delete
358:WP:DSI
255:Google
181:Delete
87:delete
1606:D-Boy
1585:with
1583:Merge
1566:merge
1553:block
1537:with
1535:Merge
1326:me.--
1085:moved
1080:abuse
1048:merge
944:talk
864:rudra
833:WP:SS
826:split
787:rudra
718:rudra
684:rudra
656:rudra
621:rudra
611:avoid
298:JSTOR
259:books
104:views
96:watch
92:links
16:<
1626:Keep
1589:. —
1574:talk
1562:Keep
1541:. -
1466:Keep
1452:Keep
1433:(𒁳)
1376:Keep
1360:per
1358:Keep
1341:Baka
1323:Keep
1308:Keep
1273:(𒁳)
1257:read
1167:(𒁳)
1155:this
1147:here
1118:(𒁳)
1066:and
893:Keep
841:(𒁳)
803:move
754:Keep
675:coin
644:like
607:Keep
559:Keep
536:Baka
499:Diff
493:and
491:Diff
453:Keep
440:Talk
364:Baka
344:(𒁳)
324:move
291:FENS
265:news
195:Baka
166:. --
100:logs
74:talk
70:edit
1564:or
1429:dab
1346:man
1288:].
1269:dab
1265:and
1163:dab
1114:dab
1101:not
1087:to
1038:or
982:or
899:DGG
837:dab
782:not
616:all
592:Alf
564:Alf
541:man
369:man
340:dab
305:TWL
200:man
143:.
108:– (
1576:)
1143:am
1095:,
1091:,
1062:,
1058:,
829:}}
823:{{
813:,
770:)
666:RF
634:RF
574:RF
525:RF
474:RF
446:)
442:|
327:}}
321:{{
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238:RF
172:RF
168:RF
150:,
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1594:ॐ
1572:(
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1315:☼
1246:e
1243:l
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1234:e
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1219:N
1215:—
1025:e
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1007:l
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1001:o
998:N
994:—
941:|
768:c
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760:(
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301:·
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257:(
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68:(
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