1190:, must be seriously substantiated, which is not done. The starting point of that substantiation shall be Pecaric's contributions to mathematics, clearly outlined, verifiable, elaborated, evaluated and written professionally by a mathematician. As an example, I referenced Todorcevic's contributions to mathematics from his biographies. For Pecaric, I was not able to find anything like that. Needless to say his academic credentials in use at the Zagreb university Faculty of mathematics are reduced to a Mathematical inequalities seminary (2 hr a week) what is not part of any Faculty curricula. A long list of "Non-fiction books" is all about the self-published books. The books content is widely rejected by historians in Croatia and outside Croatia. If we accept negative reactions to his 'non-fiction' ideas as a form of notability, then the biography shall include the reactions to his non-fictionalism, not the self-published books.--
1081:. I think we can separately discuss his potential academic notability from his fringe politics; if he is notable for the one, we can keep the article regardless of the other. I don't have a well informed view on his political opinions other than that the article does not succeed in demonstrating their notability — merely having published books is not the same as being notable for them. If this article is kept, but no evidence for notability for his non-mathematical works is uncovered, we should consider removing the list of them from the article. —
787:. The Annual State Award for Sciences (1997), and the Order of Danica Hrvatska are awards given by a political body (to Pecaric), not by academia. There is no clear idea publicly given what the Award an the Order given for, 'cause we cannot see even what are original Pecaric's contributions to mathematics, if any. Out of 1000 articles he boasts with, he authored solely no more than dozen of them, all the rest are co-authored. Going back to Todorcevic, we can read inside the
608::No one ever clearly outlined and professionally described Pecaric's work. I saw only one place (Dragomir's monography) reviewing professionally Pecaric's (and others) work, based on which I see that this Pecaric has a very narrow perception of mathematics limited to Calculus, Polish spaces and operators with no clear distinction what belongs to him and what belongs to the co-authors of the articles cited.--
1282:. Pečarić is a full member of the Croatian Acadamy of Sciences and Arts (HAZU) - more specifically, the Dept. of Mathematical, Physical and Chemical Sciences, which is limited to 24 members per the Academy's statute. I believe that this constitutes a membership in a "highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association", and that Pečarić therefore meets
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I've spent some short time to review his book "Zločinački sud u Haagu" (The criminal Hague Court). One of the book sections contains a short rant against the Hague Court. This rant was earlier a content of some blog, signed by 260 anonymous people, then commented by readers. Some of the comments were
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sources, and even more difficult in cases where most of the coverage is in non-English sources. Then it becomes impossible to write a properly balanced and properly sourced article, and to avoid numerous BLP pitfalls, and, unless notability is overwhelming on other grounds, it may be better to delete
652:
I do not have my own idiosyncratic standards about this case. This
Pecaric, as we see, had a great difficulty to earn his PhD in math, mainly for not being educated as a mathematician. After, he was rejected for five years, when trying to get a teaching position at Belgrade University. At the Faculty
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I'm glad to see that the discussion of this subject becomes focused to the facts. One of the facts is that "the international journal, Mathematical
Inequalities and Applications" Pecaric founded is not the international one, rather a Croatian journal in English funded by Croatian government. Most of
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I did not compare
Todorcevic to Pecaric, I used Todorcevic's biography to illustrate the idea and criteria of the Knowledge's notability. Simply put, Pecaric is not notable 'cause there is nothing that can be used to substantiate his notability using purely academic criteria, therefore the Knowledge
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is about the notability and a reason for addressing the "the international journal, Mathematical
Inequalities and Applications". This is not the first case where you attacked me accusing me for not following this or that Knowledge rule, irrelevant to the discussion. I'm going to ignore you here for
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None of the things in your first paragraph is particularly relevant here. This is not about whether he is a great mathematician. It is not about whether he has issued self-congratulatory statements. It is not about whether some of his publications may be puffed up from not much. It is not about the
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Given your apparent refusal to admit areas of mathematics you feel snobbish about as being true mathematics, I don't think you're going to find anyone you recognize as a true mathematician to talk to here. There is at least one Fields medalist who regularly edits
Knowledge, but I've never seen him
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racial laws, Budak just applied them, therefore Budak is not the war criminal. Pilsel referenced the document showing that Budak signed that infamous law ( Narodne novine from 4. june 1941. with full text of the racist law titled as "Zakonske odredbe o zaštiti narodne i arijske kulture hrvatskog
951:( "Pečarić has authored numerous newspaper articles and books dealing with journalistic and historical topics" the article says). All his books (or better "books") are self-published. What kind of (pseudo)historic topics he handled in his books is possible to locate from the book titles:
430:. As an educated mathematician, I was not able to find source verifying Pecaric's impact on anything academic. We need here people who are professional mathematicians to discuss the issue, not Xxanthippe-type commenters who are capable of spitting out generic and meaningless phrases.--
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case here, then perhaps the situation needs to be re-evaluated from scratch. It would be helpful if the nominator stayed out of the discussion for the moment, to keep things calm and prevent another escalation. But I would really like to hear what other discussion participants think.
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Now remains to address the core of the problem: what kind of mathematician is this person? I cannot see it neither from the biography nor from 1000 articles written by other people + himself. Excuse me, I'd like to discuss this issue with educated mathematicians, not "with rest of
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sources (both in
English and in Russian) of Fomenko's historical revisionism. In the case of Pečarić, especially on the latter score, I would not know what to say and the entire thing looks like a BLP minefield. To omit a discussion of his books about WWII, views on the
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the article. This may or may not be the case here, I am not sure. I tried to read the google-translate versions of some of the sources in
Croatian and Serbian, but it is very hard to understand what's what there. Somehow this case feels very different to me from say
916:. However, with the sources as we have them, particularly with the apparent scarcity of English language sources, it would be very difficult to write something that is properly sourced, neutral, and BLP compliant. We may be better off deleting the entire article.
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article that
Pecaric, during his unsuccessful career in Belgrade (my words), used to identify himself as a Serb. Moved to Croatia thanks to support and help he got from his father-in-law who was an influential Jugoslav People's Army officer. In his book about
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overall strength of the
Croatian academy. If those things can be sourced to reliable publications, they can be included in the article; otherwise no. But none of them addresses the question we are actually trying to consider here: does he meet Knowledge's
526:, then he is also unquestionably notable, but his citation counts on Google scholar are not any more impressive. Comparisons to other notable people make bad arguments at AfD, because there is no requirement that all notable people be equally notable; see
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section comes from
Pecaric himself. Pecaric claims, in the interview given to one of his students who authored the Pecaric's Knowledge biography, that the statement about his "greatness" came from some unidentified reference journals from 1990-ies.
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you are calling upon. Your understanding of the Google Scholar does not verify the Citation metrics: A caution about Google Scholar. This caution is against the long list of self-published Non-fiction books in his
530:. Arguing about credentials of editors here is even more pointless. Anyway, I note that Todorčević is Serbian, and I really really hope that this kerfuffle has nothing to do with continuing Serb-Croat rivalry. —
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It's a borderline case. My appointment is in computer science, not mathematics. But it's very much the mathematical end of CS, and I have degrees in both subjects. And even if one disagrees with our article
1102:, but should the English Knowledge be allowed to be used as a battleground for Balkan politics? I disregard the nominator's arguments as I do not see evidence that he has mathematical qualifications.
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issues here that are not reflected in the article and have not been mentioned by the nominator but are perhaps worth considering. It appears that the subject may also be a proponent of some
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Delete his biography, it does not have a valid encyclopaedic content. I think Pecaric is a poseur, extremely vocal in his pro-Ustashe ads and an insignificant contributor to mathematics.--
580::Todorcevic got his prominent academic post at the age of 28 at Adolph C. and Mary Sprague Miller Institute for Basic Research in Science on the University of California Berkeley campus.
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cases are quite complicated, particularly because of BLP implications, and especially in situations where most of the sources are not in English. My general understanding is that in
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sources themselves, that is, non-FRINGE sources. That often proves difficult in situations where the subject is not very notable, and where most of the coverage available is in
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views advocacy. In Fomenko's case both the case for his mathematical notability is more clear-cut, and, more importantly, there is much better coverage by genuine non-fringe
630:, which both subjects clearly pass. If you're not going to argue based on Knowledge policies and guidelines, you're not going to make much headway here. You might also find
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585:: Pecaric got his first academic position at the age of 39 at Faculty of textile technology which was before a two year community college upgraded to a four year study
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and his PhD student Miroslav Asic, late mathematics professor at Ohio State University when Pečarić appled for a teaching position at Belgrade University .
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type particular to this biography with someone who is a professional mathematician as I were for 40 years. My first paragraph is all about it. Moreover the
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of mathematics at Zagreb University his work is limited to two hour weekly Mathematical inequalities seminary which is not part of this Faculty curricula.
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The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources
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and the Budak's monuments erected in Croatian towns and cities. Pecaric, in order to substantiate his attacks, claimed that Budak did not sign
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1229:. A funny stuff. Read it if you know serbo-croatian. From this interview it's visible that a negative view of Pečarić's math credentials had
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You're welcome to have your own idiosyncratic standards for who is a serious mathematician and who is a poseur, but the rest of us here have
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371:. Not a single independent reliable source verifies him as a scholar. The opposite is true. In the discussion I gave clear example of the
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If the subject has engaged in Neo-Nazi advocacy, this would make him more notable, not less. But the material should be added to the BLP.
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575:: Pecaric earned his PhD at the age of 34 advised by anonymous P. Vasic, forced to work three years to fix the PhD dissertation faults.
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salute. I have also found additional reports of the subject making speeches in support of the same position. He has written a book
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I see you are speaking on behalf of "the rest of us here" and about "Knowledge policies and guidelines" without reading the same.
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that are clearly math not CS. Anyway, I don't think it should matter here and I don't particularly care what Vb thinks of me. —
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clear academic explanation of his work the prize was given for. Therefore #C2 is not substantiated by strict academic means.--
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citing a piece of the Todorcevic's biography. This Pecaric is not nowhere near a serious scholar. The membership in the
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he attacked the "haters" of the Croatian people, i.e. all those who were demanding removal of the street named after
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595::Pecaric mentored Viddosava Simic (61 year old teaching instructor at the same Faculty of textile technology)
783:. In my response to Epstein's comment I elaborated why #C1 and #C3 are not substantiated. Now let me touch
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1186:. I don't see any evidence of notability given. Knowledge notability criteria called upon above, like
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in a low-citation field, the national awards may be good enough for #C2, and his membership in the
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570::Todorcevic earned his PhD at the age of 24, advised by D. Kurepa, a world renown mathematician
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unintelligible or meaningless. Pecaric copied the whole blog content and pasted in his book.--
600::Todorcevic contributions to the mathematics clearly outlined and professionally described at
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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here, because you're not helping, and your unsourced attacks are arguably in violation of
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400:. Subject's talk page has been turned into attack site by nom. Bad faith nomination.
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The person has made substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity
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I see here a blind attack on the deletion proposal. What is stunning pass of the
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contribute to deletion discussions and I don't care to bother him about this. —
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Please, do not insinuate bad intentions mentioning "Todorčević is Serbian".
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Here is my illustration of academically notable vs. not notable things
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but his citation counts on Google scholar are not any more impressive
1306:, which we're not discussing here and is something else entirely).
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1298:- on the grounds of notability.) Therefore, I'd say Pečarić is
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http://www.fields.utoronto.ca/press/11-12/111214Todorcevic.html
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He is considered "...a great name in the theory of inequality"
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Stevo Todorcevic (Toronto) receives 2012 CRM-Fields-PIMS Prize
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Well, he is presumably paid a salary for performing as such.
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a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or the
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list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions
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to try to drastically minimize the number of deaths at the
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a well-established academic journal in their subject area,
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955:(I admit, I am Croat!), Serbian myth about Jasenovac,
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views and historical theories. There is a news-report
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1130:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1002:standards for inclusion of articles on academics
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231:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Log/2016 June 12
1028:factual accuracy disputed, no primary resources
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785:the national awards may be good enough for #C2
738:, quite an unusual case, but certainly passes
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1144:Note: This debate has been included in the
422:-- see the Todorcevic's biography. The same
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336:. His citation count is good enough for
812:. There may be some additional BLP and
660:. But it's highly questionable to call
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671:Then, you should read details of the
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1098:. A difficult issue. Subject passes
908:regime, etc, would seem to violate
1026:I'd like to discuss the issues of
957:Književnik Mile Budak sada i ovdje
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451:is a professional mathematician.
347:) is definitely enough for #C3. —
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1225:Here is a Pečarić's interview
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1326:Please do not modify it.
1165:Evidence of notability.
981:naroda" signed by Budak)
32:Please do not modify it.
716:WP: No personal attacks
953:Priznajem, Hrvat sam!
1302:(as opposed to just
52:. obvious consensus
1258:a sock of the nom?
396:. Stunning pass of
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319:. Per prpopsal.--
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78:Josip Pečarić
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1294:- let alone
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1235:— Preceding
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760:Changing to
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522:If you mean
502:graph theory
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225:to the log (
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1231:Đuro Kurepa
634:relevant. —
606:Not notable
593:Not notable
583:Not notable
573:Not notable
223:transcluded
163:free images
1292:challenged
1260:Xxanthippe
1104:Xxanthippe
1032:WP:PROF#C8
974:Mile Budak
970:Mile Budak
961:Mile Budak
943:Now about
862:Xxanthippe
720:Xxanthippe
676:biography.
556:criteria.
482:Xxanthippe
453:Xxanthippe
402:Xxanthippe
373:WP:PROF#C1
365:WP:PROF#C1
338:WP:PROF#C1
1331:talk page
1184:23 editor
1167:23 editor
945:WP:FRINGE
937:Main work
910:WP:WEIGHT
897:WP:FRINGE
888:WP:FRINGE
880:WP:FRINGE
876:WP:FRINGE
839:WP:FRINGE
818:WP:FRINGE
814:WP:FRINGE
37:talk page
1333:or in a
1237:unsigned
1122:Relisted
122:View log
39:or in a
1308:GregorB
1296:deleted
1284:WP:PROF
1254:Is spa
1205:Comment
1188:WP:PROF
1180:Comment
1100:WP:Prof
1096:Comment
1079:Comment
1035:good.--
914:WP:NPOV
810:Comment
781:Comment
762:Neutral
740:WP:PROF
712:Comment
673:WP:PROF
658:WP:PROF
628:WP:PROF
598:Notable
588:Notable
578:Notable
568:Notable
426:says:
424:WP:Prof
420:WP:Prof
416:Comment
398:WP:Prof
362:Comment
243::Online
169:WP refs
157:scholar
95:protect
90:history
1288:WP:GNG
906:Ustaše
825:Ustaše
683:us".--
632:WP:IAC
528:WP:WAX
367:says:
317:Delete
227:step 3
141:Google
99:delete
918:Nsk92
901:WP:RS
884:WP:RS
844:Nsk92
766:Nsk92
744:Nsk92
394:Keep?
344:(see
184:JSTOR
145:books
129:Stats
116:views
108:watch
104:links
60:talk
16:<
1312:talk
1286:#3.
1280:Keep
1264:talk
1245:talk
1213:talk
1196:talk
1171:talk
1163:Keep
1108:talk
1087:talk
1056:talk
1041:talk
1018:talk
991:talk
922:talk
912:and
866:talk
848:talk
797:talk
770:talk
748:talk
735:Keep
724:talk
689:talk
640:talk
614:talk
536:talk
510:talk
486:talk
472:talk
457:talk
436:talk
406:talk
385:talk
353:talk
334:Keep
325:talk
305:talk
285:talk
265:talk
233:. —
208:talk
177:FENS
151:news
112:logs
86:talk
82:edit
50:keep
1012:. —
191:TWL
120:– (
55:DGG
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