746:
results (and I've found 10 such results for a novice skater before, so this is not significant) and 17 refs which are actually only 9 distinct articles (1 of which is dead link, some just mention his name), all about adult skating. Another words, all 27 refs are about the least notable part of skating career. I hope I don't have to explain the issues with (b) or (c). (d) is nothing worth mentioning – it works for what it's being used for but having name listed on list of coaches at an arena is not significant. So really anything notable is (e). Two are repeats, which leaves 11 articles. One article is from a skating site (which also covers novice skaters) is about his adult skating. One article is from about.com about adult skating which mentions
Holliday (about.com also has entire articles on novice skaters). Two articles from Chicago about a local ice show (one of which doesn't even mention Holliday). One link is a website that doesn't look to meet
1293:
all! Check again on your comment about the adult nationals being a joke comparing them to
Olympics or the standard track Nationals. I never compared the event to that. However any skater who is routinely landing triple jumps at the age of 50 must be extremely special. At 30, Tara Lipinski does not do them. Sarah Hughes does not do them. Brian Boitano struggles with them, Braden Overett falls on them, and Dorothy Hamill never could do them! @Kirin13 Your comment about the sport being considered for white girls, says it all right there. That is probably why he received all of the attention! Just think about how difficult that must have been staying in a sport while people around him continued to mock him. That is called trying to make a difference for the better. And again, Larry was an International level competitor as evidence supports this with the earlier reference. Why must you continue to say that he was not. Thank you very much.
1032:@Kirin13 Knowledge (XXG) needs people like you for input into cleaning up the articles and finding errors. So would you check Tammy Gambill's article since you have edited all of her students on her page. The students all seem to fit a criteria for NSKATE perfectly. Did you notice that? Did Tammy have a hand in setting the criteria? The criteria includes skaters from 1995 to the present competing in the Grand Prix series Internationals, and excludes skaters from 1994 on down. The International events from 1994 on down, were no less important just because they were not a part of the Grand Prix series. The United States sent them to represent the country, just as they do today. Also her claim of making the Nationals has no reference at all. No results page, no newspaper story, nothing.
1312:
out of US men has been doing the best this season) was already competing at senior nationals (and placing higher than
Holliday ever did) before adding the triple axel to his programs. Easier triples, like the kind Holliday does, kids do them at age 10 and professional skaters continue to land them well past their prime. Most skaters choose to retire from skating and thus no longer jump, but those who continue to skate, can still land those jumps. E.g. Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, etc. For a 49 year old (age Holliday was at last adult nationals) to land two triples (under rotated, thus not full triples) is impressive but nothing new, notable, or 'unique'. (Just like winning US Nationals at novice level is impressive, but still not notable.) Good luck on getting that new
769:). Though things look referenced, I've already noticed many things off by comparing statements to what is actually written in the sources. The fact other BLP articles are poorly referenced doesn't make this person notable (just says there has been one dedicated user). Some things, e.g. those sourced by the biography written by Holliday's mother, need better references. Three out of four sections of the article are about his adult skating career – which is much less notable than his non-notable 'early skating career'. I don't see Larry Holliday as notable, but if Knowledge (XXG) sees him as such, then his article needs work.
905:@kirin13 Nowhere in the articles does it say Larry Holliday promoted himself. You state that he and his team did this, and I find no mention of Larry doing that. Also you misquoted the SI article when you said Larry was the first successful African American, and claimed this to be a lie. The article states that Larry is the first successful African American skater since Debi Thomas and that is a fact. You are changing the story to suit your own needs. Also when you claimed that he never competed internationally and after evidence was presented you changed your story again.
985:@Kirin13 Here is your quote,"I considered that he might be the first successful African-American skater, but that proved false (Debi Thomas came before him, winning Worlds in 1986". Why would you consider that when the article in Sports Illustrated says otherwise. That should not have been a consideration. Please read the sources thoroughly before responding. And the results page is here in the Lethbridge Herald showing his placement at Skate Canada, the International competition that he competed in. Lethbridge Herald Oct. 26, 1990 page 1 sports section.
530:@Kirin13 there is no relation, and all of my edits have been fact based, taken from the many articles on his career. Nowhere in my edits do you find a personal opinion. I do appreciate your concern and your willingness to help out, it has been a learning experience. One question....you said Larry did not compete internationally in an earlier comment and later when you found out that he did, you made another comment that the international event was just a side event. Was that a contradiction on your part?
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didn't have any significant results, his article is more of a sign of the times. Also, it's his self-promotion (since some better figure skaters did not get his amount of coverage) – that's really the area he did have major success in. As far as the USA Today article, my question on it was not so much whether it's online or not, but the contents and length of it. There is no way to tell whether it was a three-sentence blurb or a full out profile like the SI article.
735:(official websites usfsa.org & usfigureskating.org and they also own and publish Ice Network & Skating magazine) – the organization that runs and sponsors the event. (Btw, USFS accounts for 27 out of 47 refs in Holliday's article .) USFS also covers juvenile results – doesn't make those notable. Holliday has not competed in adult internationals (those exist), so his 'fame' extends only to the small world of U.S. competitive adult skating.
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sources, then you should actually read your sources to ensure they have the material you claim they do (unlike the first three you gave here & similar false refs on
Holliday's article). 2) Congrats, you can use that as a RS for him competing at the 1990 Skate Canada in men's interpretive event (and as I stated above, that is not a GP event).
552:, thus cannot be included in the article until a RS is found), I evaluated that. From the evidence presented, he did not compete in the men's singles discipline but in men's interpretive skating. Interpretive skating has never been part of the Grand Prix and competing in it, will not qualify him for notability under
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1) I would consider something because I don't memorize articles on
Holliday but I'm familiar with skating – a sport that with a reputation to be for 'white girls'. You gave that source to state he competed in Skate Canada. Ctrl-f said that it was false. If you're going to attack me for not memorizing
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4) Great. Even better would be a source after the competition that says he competed and his results. Skaters withdraw from competitions all the time, so an article before the competion is not worth as much as one after. Though given the copyright violating YouTube video, it's fair to say he competed,
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Notability is primarily defined by significant coverage in reliable sources, not accomplishments. The accomplishment based guidelines, such as NSKATE, are useful proxies, but it is the coverage or lack thereof that determines notability. And
Holliday appears to have received significant RS coverage
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Adult
Nationals' results don't make someone notable. I was being generous comparing Adult Nationals to novice level (I was comparing the Adults' free skate scores to the novices' short program scores; novices' free skate scores are significantly higher than adults' scores) – when you actually compare
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Plenty of national and international skaters do triples past their amateur retirement. Brian Orser did a triple axel when he was forty – a jump so hard that there has only been a handful of women to ever land one and many men struggle with it. (btw, has
Holliday ever even done one?) Jason Brown (who
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Landing a triple jump at the age of 50 is no small feat, (don't be surprised if Sports
Illustrated has another feature on the guy in the future as being the first to land it at the Adult Nationals:)) competitors at the Olympics routinely fall on the jump and he is still landing them....Not a joke at
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Also, from looking over the wiki article, the editor has no problem adding info with a ref but the info not being in the ref. Even above, he gave me three reference that supposable had to do with Skate Canada but never mentioned the competition. That issue is however irrelevant for this page. Due to
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So looking at the sources: (a) 27 USFS sources, (b) 1 is
Knowledge (XXG) sourcing itself, (c) 5 are pages from self-published biography written by Holliday's mother, (d) 1 ice arena website, (e) 13 other articles (though two are repeats) = 47 references. (a) consists of 10 refs which are competition
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Larry told me that he started skating at age 12, after watching Dorothy Hamill skate in the Olympics when he was 11-years-old. His proudest moment in competition history was when he made the national team in 1990 as a senior and "competed against the best in the world." Lifeskate article April 2008
1308:
You seriously comparing him to Olympic skaters? Olympic skaters do six types of triple jumps and quads. Holliday is doing the simplest two types of triples. Olympic skaters do 8-10 triples/quads per free skate. Holliday does 0-2 triple per free skate. Olympic skaters fall, most often on those quads
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No conflict of interest, but I am trying to clear up the matter in a timely fashion. US Figure Skating has his results from 1990 Skate Canada International that can be verified. Also there was major television publicity in Canada when he competed. The fourth reference clearly shows him competing at
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article (not being online is irrelevant), and no doubt many others - people are not normally covered by such major publications and ignored by lesser ones. This is simple an example of early 1990s sources have poor coverage online. (The period between 1960 and 2000 is very poorly covered online,
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Larry Holliday, 44, reclaimed a couple of things this year in the championship masters junior-senior men's event. Not only did he win gold for the first time since 2004, when the former senior-level competitor and 1990 Team USA member became the first to successfully land a triple jump at the U.S.
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is recognized by Knowledge (XXG), so thanks for clearing up the fact that Knowledge (XXG) thinks it has some value. Or maybe you think that article should be deleted as well? This is getting a bit childish so I will let you argue alone, but you did have a few good comments. Unfortunately most of
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These guidelines are meant to act as a specific supplement to the overall policy of Knowledge (XXG):Notability relating to figure skating-related biographies and organizations, and not to supersede them". He was the first to land a triple jump at the Adult National Championships and that was well
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and don't have articles. The list just includes the students that do. (As do lists for other coaches.) She started coached in the 1990's, so yeah, her list includes skaters form 1990's to the present. Her making nationals is sourced. (A source doesn't have to be from 20 years ago, a recent source
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is another example of such coverage. Yah, I know its a magazine for kids (that doesn't make it unreliable, incidentally), but that kind of illustrates my point. If there was enough interest for kids publication to cover him in depth, there obviously are other adult publications that covered him
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that Holliday doesn't do, but they succeed on the 7+ triples/quads per free skate. Are you telling me Holliday never falls during his programs? Then what were the deductions for? To compare Holliday doing a triple or two to Olympic skaters doing a quad or two is quite a comparison you have there.
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Grand Prix events are invitational, where only top skaters get invites. Non-GP events (and non ISU championship) don't have as strict requirements, thus NSKATE requiring a gold. This has nothing to do with Holliday since interpretive skating has never been in the GP. So what are you arguing here
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Good to know. Since figure skating popularity in US has plummeted significantly since early 1990s, skaters have to accomplish 10x as much as Holliday did in order to get half the coverage. So really US skaters from pre-Internet age are at an advantage compared to today's skaters. Since Holliday
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Well that would qualify as "exceptional circumstances" to discount that source then (there is no way I could have guessed someone named Norma Jean would be the mother of someone named Larry Holliday :)). It can be used in the article for basic biographical information per guidelines on primary
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but claims to have an abstract of a boy scouts' article. So what's left is 6 articles on his 'early' skating. Four of which are local Chicago articles (one barely mentions him), one is the SI article written by a Chicago journalist (which talks about Holliday self promoting), and one USA Today
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came before him, winning Worlds in 1986 plus two more Worlds medals and an Olympic medal). All I found was that he was good at self promotion. The SI article even talks about it – how he and his team got various Chicago news sources to pickup his story – then a Chicago journalist wrote the SI
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failing NSKATE (even if Holliday does, not actually clear that is the case) does not automatically make a skater non-notable. A person can still be notable under the GNG if their career has been the subject of significant coverage by reliable sources. Considering someone wrote a full length
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articles if you're trying to meet WP:GNG, which means his earlier competitive career. Holliday hasn't done anything special – he's a national-level skater who decided to skate in adult competitions while other national- & international-level skaters went to compete and land triples at
1122:"The existence of many figure skating related articles have resulted in many stub articles. The following are guidelines created by WikiProject Figure Skating to help asses the notability of articles. They are a draft version, feel free to discuss them on the project talk page.
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http://newspaperarchive.com/ca/alberta/lethbridge/lethbridge-herald/1990/10-24/page-9?tag=larry+holliday+ladies+interpretive&rtserp=tags/?ndt=bd&pd=24&pm=10&py=1990&pe=28&pem=10&pey=1990&pep=ladies-interpretive&pf=larry&pl=holliday
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tells that Overett placed 10th at Nationals three times (2003, 2005, 2007), and once he managed to place 7th (2004). Also, he competed internationally at least three times. Yet, Overett is not notable by Knowledge (XXG) standards, even though his results are better than
918:@Kirin13 And Larry Holliday must have competed in Skate Canada per this article from The Lethbridge Herald Oct. 24, 1990 covering the event. In the sports section at the end of the first column on page 9 his name is listed as a competitor from the United States.
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Larry Holliday made the Senior National Team in 1990. His 10th place finish at the National Championships that year qualified him to compete internationally on the Senior level in 1990 at Skate Canada International, where he placed 5th in the Interpretive event.
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free skate scores and moves executed, it's more similar to juvenile (the lowest of five levels competed at U.S. Nationals). NSKATE requires winning at highest national level (or compete at ISU Championships, compete at Grand Prix, or
203:. Holliday has not competed internationally. He did not medal at senior Nationals. Though he has been successful at U.S. Adult Masters competition, the level is comparable to U.S. novice which is two levels below senior required by
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So really, his entire notability is having an SI article be written on him. None of the refs about his later career are significant sources. Of the six on his 'early' career, there is four local, one offline, and the SI article.
574:@Kirin13 No relation. It's fun focusing on something good. If the rules here tell me that I have to focus on many topics, I will do that, but I have not been aware of that rule. However Larry is clearly notable under the GNG.
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the editor misleading on sources however, I no longer trust any sources he gives me without being able to verify. I assume, in good faith, it exists, but, from previous experience, I doubt it has all the info he uses it for.
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Larry Holliday's story was published in magazines, newspapers, television, etc....and has been seen, read, and heard by people all over the world. That establishes his notability, which is another standard of Knowledge
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Larry Holliday did compete in a major International event at Skate Canada 1990 as a senior level skater. I will look for more sources. US Figure Skating in Colorado Springs can verify this. I will contact them as well.
1328:. So, yeah he's an "international athlete in a discipline that no one knows about and hardly anyone ever competed in". In men's singles, he's never competed internationally, thus he's a former national-level skater.
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1)Yes, I'm sure Holliday was physically forced to give interviews and photos. And I'm sure his mother wrote the biography completely against his will and he was extremely upset with it. – Or he was a willing
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http://newspaperarchive.com/ca/alberta/lethbridge/lethbridge-herald/1990/10-26/page-9?tag=results&rtserp=tags/results?pc=16234&psi=4&pci=2&pt=11117&ndt=ex&pd=26&pm=10&py=1990
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This is a skater whose highest placement at Nationals was 10th (NSKATE requires 1st) and that was once – the rest of time he placed worse. He may have competed once in an international tournament (though a
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The source you gave does not mention Skate Canada. Also looking through the Skate Canada articles, I don't see anywhere mentioned that he competed. Nothing in your comment shows that he met requirements of
482:. Even if he competed at Skate Canada, he did not compete in the Grand Prix event, he competed in a side event of interpretive skating which has never been part of the Grand Prix and isn't recognized by
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So obviously, Holliday's notability doesn't come from his skating results – so where does it come from? I considered that he might be the first successful African-American skater, but that proved false
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besides the two already used (USA Today+SI). But even if there weren't, those two alone would be sufficient to establish notability. As to the article needing work, that isn't the purpose of AfD. --
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biography about Holliday there would have to be pretty exceptional circumstances to say he's non-notable. But, what we actually find is many other RS covering him in varying degrees of detail. (The
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In response to "No conflict of interest": You have over 200 edits to the Larry Holliday article spanning three years. Outside of that you have less than a dozen edits – and even those
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Wilson fails NSKATE and it can be questioned on whether he should have an article. The article is barely sourced – both sources just include a small blurb on him, which does not meet
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As far as the current state of the Knowledge (XXG) article, it needs some cleanup. It was written by a single person whose singular interest on Knowledge (XXG) is promoting Holliday (
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article. And even above, you argued against it being a reason for his notability. Since he was not the first nor the most successful, I'm not sure which route you're trying to argue.
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because of the combination of material still being copyrighted and there not being enough interest to warrant spending the funds necessary to scan the material for a pay service.)
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http://www.si.com/vault/1991/02/11/123615/a-one-man-spectacular-holliday-on-ice-chicagos-larry-holliday-has-persevered-during-hard-times-to-become-skatings-unlikeliest-rising-star
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Don't worry I have been reading them all. Some very good reasons on both sides but for the time being my vote will remain. I'll keep this on my watchlist and see how it goes.
1141:"first to land a triple jump at the Adult National Championships" has never had any significant coverage and would not meet any notability requirements. You should stick to
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story alone would generally be sufficient to establish notability, for example.) Thus, he is clearly notable under the GNG; whether he meets NSKATE or not is irrelevant. --
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As far as the issue with the article, that's more directed to EoRdE6 than you. But since I didn't feel like making two responses, I combined them and pointed him to it.
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thing notable about Holliday is that he had an SI article written on him, since nothing in the SI article shows any notability. Given that nothing else is notable,
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Holliday competed internationally once in a discipline not recognized by the ISU. A discipline so not recognized, there is no Knowledge (XXG) article on it –
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That "someone wrote a full length biography" was his mother and the book was self-published. That source shouldn't be used for any claims in the article.
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has yet to be found for that), but even that tournament result would not qualify him for notability under NSKATE. Compare that to a more recent skater,
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2) No where did I state that SI article claimed he was the first African American. Don't accuse me of making things up when you're making things up.
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515:. You're the only registered user to have added information to this article. I have a hard time believing that you have no relation to Holliday.
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article was created after her students, so not sure how she created the criteria. In fact she has many more students who don't qualify under
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he would not have a profile on Knowledge (XXG) if it were for Nskate criteria only, but we clearly see why his profile is on Knowledge (XXG).
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3) When there was no evidence of him competing internationally, I stated he hadn't. When evidence was provided, I concurred, but said that a
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http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=larry+holliday+skate+canada&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=8AF41032E040E9BB92C48AF41032E040E9BB92C4
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Ok, just about everything you just said is completely wrong, and you have no references to back it up! NONE! Please include your sources!
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As far as the WP:NSKATE, the discussions were that it's too lenanient, not too harsh. So you're not going to catch a break with it.
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professional competitions and shows. It's a joke to compare adult competitions to professional & amateur competitions.
850:'s rationale, and think the article is more than well sourced compared to many other severely lacking BLP's around here.
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If you have no relation to Holliday, why the singular and prolonged (three years of editing one article) interest in him?
354:. You must either win senior nationals or compete in major international event or win a minor international competition.
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When you presented evidence that he did compete at an international competition (even though the evidence is not from a
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sources, but you are right it does nothing for notability. However, I stand by the keep comment based on extensive
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The article states that he competed in 1990 for Team USA as a Senior level skater, and the event was Skate Canada.
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Sports Illustrated. "A One-Man Spectacular: Holliday on Ice". Lisa Twyman Bessone, February 11, 1991, page 14
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As for your new argument of him being notable for being black, the only article I recall mentioning it is the
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1104:. His claim to notability is being first African American to make nationals. What's Holliday's?
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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in the early 1990s when he was thought to have Olympic potential. This is evidenced by the
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relate to Larry Holliday. Your sole purpose on Knowledge (XXG) is to promote Holliday – see
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Might as well have the lead be "Larry Holliday is an American figure skater who once had a
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Nowhere does the article mention Skate Canada and making the national team does not meet
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other senior international). The references that cover Adult Nationals are by
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them were not only incorrect, they were hostile and uncalled for. Thank you.
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Please read my newest reply to ThaddeusB above (same timestamp). Thanks,
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article written on him." since it's the only notable thing about him.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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stating accomplishments is still a source.) What's the problem?
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list of United States of America-related deletion discussions
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http://www.lifeskate.com/skate/2008/04/2008-us-adult-1.html
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459:the Senior level Grand Prix event, Skate Canada.
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1379:). No further edits should be made to this page.
474:The bing video can't be used as a source per
274:Adult Championships. Icenetwork news article
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708:I'm not convinced it makes Holliday notable.
610:Note: This debate has been included in the
590:Note: This debate has been included in the
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441:seems to revolve around this one skater.
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751:article which is not available online.
1066:And for information purposes look at
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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970:but a WP:RS is still necessary.
1258:with enough reliable sources.
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1368:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
967:. What's your problem?
439:entire editing history
1346:Adult figure skating
1326:interpretive skating
435:conflict of interest
1250:. May not have met
733:U.S. Figure Skating
758:Sports Illustrated
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955:participant.
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1068:Atoy Wilson
740:Debi Thomas
724:Holliday's.
480:WP:VIDEOREF
163:free images
1169:References
1373:talk page
1351:Frankkymd
1295:Frankkymd
1252:WP:NSKATE
1147:USA Today
1128:Frankkymd
1092:WP:NSKATE
1072:Frankkymd
1053:Frankkymd
1034:Frankkymd
994:Frankkymd
941:Frankkymd
927:Frankkymd
907:Frankkymd
801:ThaddeusB
791:USA Today
766:see above
696:ThaddeusB
681:ThaddeusB
656:ThaddeusB
641:ThaddeusB
616:• Gene93k
596:• Gene93k
576:Frankkymd
554:WP:NSKATE
546:Frankkymd
532:Frankkymd
503:Frankkymd
484:WP:NSKATE
461:Frankkymd
421:Frankkymd
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352:WP:NSKATE
332:Frankkymd
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283:Frankkymd
253:WP:NSKATE
232:Frankkymd
205:WP:NSKATE
201:WP:NSKATE
37:talk page
1375:or in a
1316:article.
1254:but has
1126:sourced.
1002:contribs
990:unsigned
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390:contribs
378:unsigned
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291:contribs
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228:unsigned
122:View log
55:Spinning
39:or in a
1331:Kirin13
1155:Kirin13
1107:Kirin13
1015:Kirin13
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821:Kirin13
772:Kirin13
662:Kirin13
561:Kirin13
517:Kirin13
488:Kirin13
443:Kirin13
437:? Your
402:Kirin13
356:Kirin13
307:Kirin13
257:Kirin13
209:Kirin13
169:WP refs
157:scholar
95:protect
90:history
1256:WP:GNG
1145:&
1102:WP:GNG
1051:(XXG).
892:EoRdE6
864:EoRdE6
853:EoRdE6
513:WP:SPA
199:Fails
141:Google
99:delete
961:WP:RS
748:WP:RS
713:WP:RS
550:WP:RS
476:WP:YT
184:JSTOR
145:books
129:Stats
116:views
108:watch
104:links
60:Spark
16:<
1355:talk
1335:talk
1299:talk
1248:Keep
1159:talk
1132:talk
1111:talk
1098:for?
1076:talk
1057:talk
1048:Keep
1038:talk
1019:talk
998:talk
977:talk
965:WP:V
945:talk
931:talk
911:talk
874:talk
844:Keep
825:talk
805:talk
796:here
776:talk
719:. A
702:only
685:talk
666:talk
645:talk
632:Keep
620:talk
600:talk
580:talk
565:talk
536:talk
521:talk
492:talk
478:and
465:talk
447:talk
425:talk
406:talk
386:talk
360:talk
336:talk
311:talk
287:talk
261:talk
236:talk
213:talk
177:FENS
151:news
112:logs
86:talk
82:edit
50:keep
729:win
509:all
427:)
191:TWL
120:– (
52:.
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1320:SI
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1301:)
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