319:: "Lists and categories have different properties, and having both a list and a similar category is not necessarily redundant." As for these lists in particular, they have the virtue of being fairly concise and certain to stay that way no matter how broadly defined, unlike List of German Americans, English Am., Irish Am., etc. So the lists are more manageable and notable at the same time. At a minimum, in considering these ethnicity lists individually, there is no particular reason to delete these specific ones that would not apply to every list, and the decision was already made not to delete every list. Deleting these lists without a reason specific to them would just be a random act therefore and generally kind of a dumb way to run an encyclopedia. -
344:(television), Living person, New Jersey actor, Norwegian-American person, from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and from Sussex County, New Jersey, Spaghetti Western actor, University of Minnesota alumnus" guy. While it's rather odd to see three Scandinavian nations getting nominated at the same time (can't decide where Denmark belongs, I guess), these actually have something else in common, which is that they're all well-sourced, something that is to be encouraged in Knowledge (XXG), with an attempt to explain the connection. Of the three, the Norwegian-Americans list has the most room for improvement... currently, its footnotes go to a website which explains the Norwegian ancestry a bit better.
833:"Useful" seemed a particularly useful shorthand phrase at my 2 am energy level. Sorry to have skipped the essay on the uselessness of the word "useful". I meant "useful" as in "non-trivial to many users", as in "satisfies usage needs not covered by categorization alone", as in "a good starting point for further research into a population sector", and as in "a good way for students to get quick access to footnotes on a general population sector and to find examples of people in this population sector."
365:. When category intersection rolls around (the near future) we're not going to have to worry about what ethnicity-occupation intersections we don't have. These lists do end up being a random assortment because so many of these people are related by nothing more than having an ancestor from the same country. We don't even list distant family members in this way. Categories completely suffice.
59:. Arguments to "keep" in a number of cases lack any justification for retaining the list (Richard Arthur Norton, DHowell, Hmains, Badagani, Pia, Drieakko, Nomen Nescio), and a number of others (Steve Hart, Storm Surfer, DGG, Mikka) don't really provide any justification for why we should keep the list. In this case, DGG's duplicate argument is ignored.
999:
Comment on the "how-Fooian" concern: The fact is that this slope is not terribly slippery. Even if you broadly qualified any notable
American with any degree of publicly known Finnish ancestry, for example, you would still have a very short list. (Personally, I would be happy to be proven wrong about
979:
Comment on notability: I think it's relevant that histories of Finns in the U.S. commonly note the contributions of specific (notable) Americans of
Finnish descent, not as trivia but as a pertinent part of that historical treatment. Also, the existence of notable members of an ethnicity can itself be
536:
be created either. This extreme view of policy is a dying argument because most AfDs run on consensus when there is no policy violation in play. We can make tons of lists that can be sourced and verifiable, but whether they are notable or have importance as an individual article relies on community
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The
Finnish Knowledge (XXG) list has 38 names, the comparable English list 34 names. The Finnish list is unsourced but the English list is well sourced. Much of the Finnish Knowledge (XXG) suffers from the lack of proper sources. Finnish Knowledge (XXG) covers only a fraction of English Knowledge
804:
There is a difference between "triviabag" and "valuable content." You don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two, and when knowledgeable editors prove the value of articles such as this one, you denigrate them with this sort of language. It's time to move on, and begin creating your own
343:
If these were indiscriminate lists of blue links, I'd agree that a category would be just fine, although I think we tend to overcategorize (as with Peter Graves, that well known "1926 birth, American character actor, American film actor, American television actor, Best Drama Actor Golden Globe
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I agree with this, we shouldn't have lists based on race/ethnicity or, in my opinion, religion. But I don't think there is consensus to kill lists based on nationalities. The question is rather how far back in time can these lists go before nationality can no longer be claimed. --
636:- in its current revision I can't see that these fails WP:LIST. (And I like lists, I find that they serve a different purpose than categories.) On the other hand, there are millions of people born in the US with Scandinavian roots. We do need a policy discussion about lists. --
851:. Using categories for this would overload the related articles. As a Finn, I am very much aware how important this kind of lists are for the Finns. Just to point out an example, the visit of Pamela Andersson this summer led to nation-wide hysteria. Can you believe that, uh. --
917:
You've been proven wrong, Bulldog123, by someone who knows more than you about this particular subject. It's time to move on (and maybe write an article or two of your own, contributing valuable content to
Knowledge (XXG)? You will enjoy it!).
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opinion. There is no other way to do it. If we were to allow just any lists sourced by "reliable" references, wikipedia would turn into a memorial service, a trivia basket, and a huge collection of loosely connected names and items.
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Ethnicity is important, and a major connection between people--or at least, people themselves generally think so. the criterion should obviously be "self-identified" which lets us ignore what percentage of ancestry is sufficient.
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Over categorization. Most are blue links, so the argument that it is a repository of red links is invalid. An argument which I never understood, if they're notable, they would probably already have an article. A category
785:
I've just looked through several thousand of your edits, and see that you only make edits to try to delete things. I don't think I wish to "debate" with someone like that anymore; hope you don't take that personally.
1062:, I'm so sick of these retarded "this is what categories are for" arguments. No one will click through a plain, unsorted list of names. And if you try to subcategorize by professions, you are overcategorizing per
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The main problem in
Knowledge (XXG) in general regarding categories is that there is no way referencing article's inclusion in a category. Whenever you need to source that, you also need to start making lists.
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with a short list at the bottom, apparently unsourced. Once they are sourced, the list will probably be pruned even more. Adding
Finnish-American (who are truly notable for their Finnish-Americanness) on
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and ignore the editors who chief purpose in WP is deleting things they personally do not like and those who object at every turn to anything regarding the ethnic groups who make up the US population.
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will tell us that the individual is sufficiently Fooian, and how exactly is being XX% Fooian important to categorize based upon. Once again, WP should not be categorizing on race/ethnicity.
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has some kind of requirement for keeping all lists that can be poorly sourced. Why is there so much of a difference between a list of
Scandinavian Americans and a list of English Americans?
952:(XXG) articles (some 0.5%, I think) so claiming that some articles in English Knowledge (XXG) would not be worth existing because they are not in Finnish Knowledge (XXG) is just strange. --
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contributed to these lists and still thinks they should be deleted, so I don't think the assumption that everyone who may have made an edit to this page would want it kept is fair.
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as information, navigation. These well-sourced, verifiable lists cannot be replicated by categories, because of information provided about field of endeavor. --
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of the many editors who contributed to these lists (including over fifty who contributed to the
Swedish American list) outweighs a dozen or so who essentially
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is acceptable in everyone's view. There isn't a list of
Finnish Americans alone though, so my point stands. Drieakko, are there any other X-American lists?
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984:, item 45.) And these lists, by definition, include only those whose ethnic ancestry has, in fact, been noted in the wider world outside Knowledge (XXG). -
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until the software provides category intersections, at least. As others have said, these lists are sourced and more useful than mere categories. —
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Categories will never be flexible enough to do this, and there is no policy to prefer them to lists. this seems to be sataisfactory for the topic.
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As categories by occupation, they fail overcategorization. So why wouldn't this be a form of overcategorization in lists? See the essay
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The "USEFUL" essay you cite above is idiotic, and does not become less so the more times it is cited in these sorts of damaging,
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Somebody needs to make sure wikipedia doesn't turn into a triviabag because of overzealous editors. Corpx does a great job.
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231:. Also nominated are the fellow Scandinavians (as there should be no reason to keep some but not delete others).
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Until there is a
Knowledge (XXG) policy against ethnicity lists, these are no less worthy than any others; see
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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How come? The list is at the end of the Finnish article, and it seems to cover pretty much the same names. --
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per intersection of nationalities/loosely associated items . Replace with category (if that's appropriate)
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Both sides have reasonable arguments but at present I tend to be slightly in favour of the "keep" arguments.
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Well, eye of the beholder I suppose, but you're taking this way too seriously and getting a little uncivil.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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valuable content, or work to delete actual "junk" articles. This is not one of them.
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suffers from numerous problems: how Fooian must someone be to listed here and what
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really says nothing to help us determine what should and what shouldn't be kept.
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There is clearly no policy-based reason to delete these lists. Therefore, the
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you put "Delete per Corpx, Arkyan, Dark Teal, et al. CAT" but here you imply
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We do tend to overcategorize and that's why there are limitations to it
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categories by occupation. Grouping them on one list is just sensible.
361:. However, we also tend to overlist and destory the purpose of a list
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If it is idiotic, should it be linked to as a "See Also" item on the
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Why is there no List of Finnish Americans on the Finnish wikipedia?
578:. Far too loose a connection between listees, overcategorization.
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/List of Portuguese Americans
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as aides to navigation and for information purposes as well, per
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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disruptively propose this article for deletion again, thanks.
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a component of that ethnic identity in the U.S. (See, e.g.,
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no valid reason for deletion provided above. Valid per
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It would be overcategorization to divide these into
50:). No further edits should be made to this page.
562:be ok, but I still think it's overcategorization.
29:The deletion review for this article may be found
929:The Finnish Knowledge (XXG) has an equivalent to
299:per nomination, this is why we have categories.
1102:). No further edits should be made to this page.
385:. Far too broad and indiscriminate, practically
1050:. A notable notion. Classification not POV. `'
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532:There is no policy to indicate these lists
477:for ethnicity-occupation intersections.
331:They should all be in categories only.--
1000:that, but I don't expect I will be.) -
772:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
256:This is what categories are for.----
590:and debate at the Portal level. --
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227:Relisting per suggestions from
592:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
1:
982:"Survey of Finnish-Americans"
893:Hardly a list like we have.
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85:List of Norwegian Americans
77:List of Norwegian Americans
71:09:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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422:List of English Americans
182:List of Finnish Americans
136:List of Swedish Americans
1095:Please do not modify it.
420:Bearian, on the AfD for
43:Please do not modify it.
275:Random and pointless.
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725:. Useful.
683:Bulldog123
638:Steve Hart
622:Steve Hart
543:Bulldog123
479:Bulldog123
430:Bulldog123
379:Delete all
367:Bulldog123
305:Burntsauce
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233:Bulldog123
1034:Weak keep
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807:Badagnani
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671:WP:EFFORT
650:consensus
634:Weak keep
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882:Drieakko
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849:Keep all
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711:WP:POINT
695:keep all
646:Keep all
580:Mad Jack
510:Keep all
492:separate
475:WP:OLIST
450:JayHenry
442:keep all
401:Keep all
392:VanTucky
363:WP:OLIST
341:Keep All
301:USE THEM
129:View log
1064:WP:OCAT
1002:Langrel
986:Langrel
658:DHowell
604:WP:RSes
539:WP:LIST
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387:trivial
359:WP:OCAT
333:JForget
321:Langrel
244:as nom
199:protect
194:history
153:protect
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102:protect
97:history
774:page?
757:AFDs.
699:Hmains
600:Delete
576:Delete
555:Delete
534:should
383:WP:NOT
329:Delete
297:Delete
285:Delete
273:Delete
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57:delete
1068:Kappa
1052:Míkka
776:Corpx
742:Corpx
560:might
496:Kappa
289:Corpx
220:views
212:watch
208:links
174:views
166:watch
162:links
123:views
115:watch
111:links
16:<
1060:Keep
1048:Keep
1025:talk
880:. --
723:Keep
588:Keep
520:talk
458:Keep
381:per
313:Keep
216:logs
190:talk
186:edit
170:logs
144:talk
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119:logs
93:talk
89:edit
62:Neil
31:here
1020:DGG
835:Pia
727:Pia
669:So
515:DGG
303:.
259:Tea
127:– (
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