454:. Perhaps it could be renamed to List of Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip in 2008? It is an indispensable adjunct to the facts in 'LormaiIi2008'. Note also that Israeli and Hamas forces have taken to propagandizing about how many they have killed, not how few; this article would in that light be a token of Israel's success. As you can see, the soapbox is in the eye of the beholder. Keep the useful facts.
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keep a list of this nature current? 3. The fact this war is underway and that lots of people have died is relevant and notable, but is it necessary to itemize everyone? Has a similar list been created for the Iraq and
Afghanistan wars? For the Six Day War? For World War II? I can't help but feel that this sort of a list is serving a non-
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Besides serving as an indicator of some of the numbers of insurgent deaths during specific time periods, this article allows readers to investigate the circumstances of those deaths by reading the citation articles. It also allows readers and researchers to investigate patterns in the type of tactics
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reporting of incidents resulting in very numerous deaths (such as large-scale accidents, massacres or wars), whether or not the people who have died are actually named. I'm amenable to userfying this if someone believes that this could be the basis of a much more concise, well-sourced section in some
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That may be an indication that a comprehensive list of violent acts in a particular conflict simply isn't the proper role of an encyclopedia to document (as compared to the conflict itself and its context, which are good subjects for articles). For example, a list of every single bombing, artillery,
1188:
The information in this article may not be "notable" to those who put their faith in war-making, but it is certainly notable for the direct and indirect victims of war, and that includes most of us. An encyclopedia needs to take into account the needs of the majority of its readers, and I, for one,
758:
After looking at that B'Tselem chart, I now think that the
Knowledge (XXG) list is much better. The Knowledge (XXG) list has a table of contents by month, and there is no need to scroll horizontally for each entry in the chart. With my 17 inch monitor I have to scroll to read the info for each entry
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I see it as a substantial improvement, though totals are what is required rather that a list of individuals who are not named by personal attributes. There are still a great many named and non notable individuals, however. I really do not see why you are worrying about the source. It feels rather
229:
the other article you refer to differs markedly from this one. It has almost no personal names mentioned, and all the attacks have citations. It is about the attacks, and is not a memorial. Do please bear in mind that each WP article stands or falls on its own unique merits. Precedent is not set
1491:
I just wanted to log as nominator that the nomination was simply that, a nomination of this article. I have no bias in this conflict, which I see as appalling, but have insufficient understanding of the two sides to hold a valid opinion of the rights and wrongs of each party in the dispute. It is
1059:
My concerns with the article in its current for are: 1. Each line needs to be sourced otherwise any IP with an axe to grind can add whatever they feel like. Although there is a list of references at the bottom, there are no citations on most if not all of what's listed 2. Is it possible to actually
570:
that the article has been substantially altered to remove the majority, but not all, of the roll of the dead. It would be valid for prior !voters to check that they have make their decisions based upon the article as it stands now rather than the article I nominated originally. The closing admin
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It is now a statistical list of attacks with qualitative descriptions of the attacks. The article states the source of the data in a conspicuous manner. Interested users may decide on the reliability of the source. I for one consider the source independent and more reliable than, say, the New York
1184:
So much information about
Palestine is already censored or suppressed. This censorship makes it difficult or impossible to understand the situation in Palestine. The censorship creates a void that is filled with stereotypes, demonization, and dehumanization. Israelis and Palestinians alike are
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is the original source. It is a serious and reliable
Israelian source. It is the main source for this article published on Jan 15 and nominated for deletion the next day. Knowledge (XXG) being a work in progress more might come in the future. Ist form is also a big ergonomic improvement from the
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article is a list of the fatalities. Thus it contains, by definition, the roll of the dead. Without the names it becomes a statistical list of attacks with qualitative descriptions of the attacks. Individual citations render each wholly verifiable. That is a different article, and one that I
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and the other related articles than an argument to keep this one. These sorts of "list our side's grievances" articles seem more useful to POV-pushers than to
Knowledge (XXG)'s educational goals of spreading neutral, encyclopedic information, which is better done in unified treatments like
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article. We are encouraged to move the information from the main article into subarticles, but if the subarticles are then deleted, valuable information is lost. Suppression of information is inconsistent with the purpose of an encyclopedia and with wikipedia's stated aims. See
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in the chart. So, since the
Knowledge (XXG) article is basically finished, and much improved after going through this AfD, I think it should be kept. It is relevant at this time. Plus in the wikipedia article there is a bar chart that helps see deaths over time. --
265:
would welcome along the lines of the other article you used as an example. I have no knowledge of nor interest in the actual topic. My interest is the article and the encyclopaedia. I expect the source you quote is reliable, but I have no knowledge of it.
1040:, which are orders of magnitude larger. This is just a demonstration of the old Stalin quote, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic." The article needs a significant re-write; hopefully well after this tiny war is finished.—
1426:
Every village in Europe keeps the list of the names and ages of the victims of WW1 and WW2 on marble stones. This is
Internet in the 21st century. The modern lists may be kept on the Knowledge (XXG): once again it does not infringe Knowledge (XXG)'s rule
370::"In consideration of precedent and consistency, though, identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Knowledge (XXG) may provide extremely important insight into general notability of concepts".
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No offence,but I feel giving the statistics of how many people died in a day are redundant for an encyclopedia. Perhaps it'd be better if only ranking officials were included with a total of civilians casualties at the bottom of the entry.
786:. The only source cited is the B'Tselem website (apart from the lead which gives a very POV background to the conflict and is not really related to the main subject of the article). Looks like this article is a mirror of B'Tselem. Best.
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that can not be covered adequately in that article. The alleged cause of the breakdown of the truce on both sides were these types of events. So readers want to know about violent events of both sides before the war.
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Please see my reply higher up to Fiddle Faddle. Also, it is not necessarily POV pushing. At least not for me. It is just a matter of space. We could combine the violent acts into one article, but it would be huge.
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this is a list of attacks, and not a memorial to any of the dead - it doesn't even name them. It needs much better sourcing, but that should be possible using reliable sources, and isn't a reason to delete.
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in isolation that concerns me, not the conflict. Avoidance of bias is done by the creation of articles and deletion of articles without reference in those processes to the politics behind the article.
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purpose by spotlighting the fact that lots of
Palestinians are getting killed in a conflict that is current and controversial, and I believe that's beyond what Knowledge (XXG) is supposed to be about.
850:. And they have multiple references for some entries. Very useful for readers and researchers. The list in question here could benefit from some more references for some of the individual entries. --
840:
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and in this article are not "departed friends and relatives." and they hare not "Subjects of encyclopedia articles": they do not have their own article entry! They are victims whose name are public!
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It would be helpful if the editors who recently voted to delete the article on the grounds that it is a memorial would explain how an article which doesn't name any of the dead serves this purpose.
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a memorial. Nor is
Knowledge (XXG) a soapbox. While deep sympathy goes out to those associated with the victims, this is not the place to create a memorial to them.
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If there is a list of attacks on Israel in 2008 that lists not only deaths but also injuries, then there should be a list of attacks BY Israel in 2008. Or did you nominate
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in a previous comment. It is a very reliable source. The sourcing needs to be explained clearly in the article, though. And the main index pages need to be linked to. --
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I think the article would be more useful and relevant if it stopped counting 2008 Palestinian deaths at the beginning of the main
Israeli airstrikes Dec. 27, 2008. --
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I'd say such lists have entirely too much detail. We don't keep lists of traffic fatalities or murder incidents. They need to be consolidated at some higher level.—
510:, mainly per DGG. In addition, unless there exists good reliable secondary sources for all of these deaths, I have no choice but to think that this is basically a
917:
as memorial - if kept, in needs a neutral rename along the lines of the "civilian casualties in the Second Intifada" pair, which should also be deleted IMHO.
1555:. It was getting around 350 edits a day recently. It is unrealistic to cover much more in encyclopedia detail in those 2 already-large articles. --
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at least in its present form. As an absolute minimum, it needs sources. We do not usually try to keep track of every death in events like these.
1543:. Because arguments about the violent attacks of both sides before the war have been frequently noted in the media. There is not enough room in
1376:, a 52-year-old father of three), which is legitimate, those victims deserve to be remembered of, but those two pages cite every rocket attack!
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967:- Thousands are dead at this point, this is very notable and encyclopedic. More sourced information will be added about the victims in time.
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please feel at liberty to nominate any article that you feel does not qualify for inclusion here to be deleted or improved. Please read
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or infantry action taken by either side even a single World War II campaign would be quite large and certainly couldn't fit into, say
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appropriate article (to the extent that consensus allows for its inclusion and such content does not already exist).
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than POV-forks of "bad things Palestinians did to Israelis" and "bad things Israelis did to Palestinians". See also
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not only cite each and every names of the victims, except the 4 on Dec 27 and 29 2008 (June 28, 2004: Four-year-old
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So then suggest that the names of the victims be edited out. And do you not consider B'Tselem a reliable source?
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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will need to validate with some precision the point from which a consensus on this article should be built.
77:. The prevailing sentiment is that this article is not only much too inadequately sourced, but also violates
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1527:" I could see how one might think the article might be a memorial or a soapbox. It may need some work to be
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1551:. There is no room left in those articles for anything more. Many articles have been spun out. I help edit
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295:"Methinks s/he doth protest too much" to me. If you are confident of your source then you are confident.
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that separates out Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008.
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one, although it does detail previous years as well. I don't know, it looks like a mirror. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Full_Data.asp?Category=1®ion=GAZA
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List of German fatalities resulting from the Allied advance during the Normandy Invasion
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List of Palestinian fatalities resulting from Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip in 2008
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Memorials. Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives.
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1531:. But I don't see it as a memorial in terms of Knowledge (XXG)'s definition. From
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not only this page deserves to be kept, but also reverted to its first status by
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I think that these Knowledge (XXG) lists are encyclopedic and relevant. They are
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from B'Tselem. A link to the B'Tselem source can be added as an external link to
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where individuals names are given, which is more esay to verify than anonymous.
1028:—In its current form this article has too much detail. Compare, for example to
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1236:. If it's unsourced there's nothing to discuss. There's no reason to analyze
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1397:"Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives.
1196:. This article contains WP:RS information that was moved out of the main
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and removing the names of the diseased, as per the concerns raised by
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I don't see how this article overall has a problem along the lines of
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It is considered to be a reliable source. The intro can be made more
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a memorial. Nor is Knowledge (XXG) a soapbox.
985:: What do people think about merging this information to the pages
1632:
1835:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1364:, while working in his garden in Kibbutz Kfar Aza; May 12 2008,
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and other related articles provide essential background info to
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List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
25:
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because each victim does not have it's individual article! --
993:, both of which I believe were proposed for creation before?
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the topic is covered in sufficient, encyclopaedic detail in
948:. The use of a single source is also extremely problematic.
1539:" The topic of the article is notable in my opinion. As is
1523:
In your nomination your reason to delete the article was "
836:
List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
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does not cover the period preceding the war. It links to
1368:, a 70-year-old resident of Kibbutz Gvaram; May 19 2008,
1141:, so I don't know why both shouldn't be worked on now. --
936:: It would be a much better idea to have articles called
714:
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Contains more detail, for its more limited subject, than
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These type of lists are not memorials or soapboxes. See:
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http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
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B'Tselem is the source for casualties in the infobox of
620:. However, the nominated article needs better sourcing.
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must satisfy Knowledge (XXG)'s notability requirements"
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I notice that pro-war forces are also trying to delete
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List of Iraqi security forces fatality reports in Iraq
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List of Iraqi security forces fatality reports in Iraq
81:, which we tend to understand also as prohibiting the
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but please consider renaming the article (perhaps to
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The pair of articles this article is modelled after:
1793:. Has a ring of neutrality to it... sounds like A4.
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Countering systemic bias
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2009
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
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List of rocket and mortar attacks in Israel in 2008
1768:senior commander Total civilian casualties - XX
1732:List of Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip in 2008
1091:Causalities of the 2007-2008 Israel-Gaza Conflict
68:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1845:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1395:. It is clearly is out of topic: the text says:
591:is the source for all the entries according to
1816:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
1692:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
1659:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
1587:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
1580:. That sounds more like an argument to delete
1545:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
666:list of Palestine-related deletion discussions
420:Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict
547:list of Military-related deletion discussions
8:
1791:List of fatalities from Israel-Gaza conflict
1469:has details, names, dates, charts, etc.. --
740:The source this article explicitly uses is
640:list of Israel-related deletion discussions
332:- Kept after AfD. From the article intro: "
1382:For the sake of Knowledge (XXG)'s fairness
1126:List of insurgent fatality reports in Iraq
991:Causalities of the 2007-2008 Gaza Conflict
987:Causalities of the 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict
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713:I don't believe there is a single page at
330:List of insurgent fatality reports in Iraq
1663:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict#Background
1097:needs to be worked upon first. Thanks!--
664:: This debate has been included in the
638:: This debate has been included in the
545:: This debate has been included in the
1194:2008-09_Israel–Gaza_Foreign_involvement
45:For an explanation of the process, see
719:If there were, I would agree with you.
402:, as long as the introduction is kept
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1635:, but we don't break them out into
1372:, 35-year-old woman; June 5 2008,
1332:, 49, Sderot; September 29, 2004:
946:is structured as simply a memorial
41:deletion review on 2009 January 25
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1399:Subjects of encyclopedia articles
1356:, 32, Sderot; February 27 2008,
1122:I also supported the editors of
335:by insurgents and the coalition.
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1212:) 19:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
1038:War in Darfur#Mortality figures
47:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review
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1185:harmed by this war propaganda.
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1657:is covered by many articles.
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1457:Good points. We should avoid
1405:List of Qassam rocket attacks
1318:List of Qassam rocket attacks
830:Comment. More casualty lists:
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1843:deletion review
1836:
1787:Move and expand
1440:
1418:original source
1354:Shir-El Feldman
1256:
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1238:WP:NOT#MEMORIAL
1221:211.214.128.185
891:
804:Second Intifada
473:WP:NOT#MEMORIAL
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66:deletion review
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37:This discussion
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782:. Agree with
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573:Fiddle Faddle
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1688:Delete/Merge
1687:
1655:World War II
1577:
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1386:User:Trachys
1381:
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1334:Yuval Abebeh
1333:
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1309:
1290:
1261:(yada, yada)
1249:
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892:Sean.hoyland
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691:content fork
686:
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36:
1766:Nizar Rayan
1740:Dynablaster
1667:Timeshifter
1614:Timeshifter
1557:Timeshifter
1471:Timeshifter
1441:—Preceding
1326:Afik Zahavi
1314:Strong keep
1295:Timeshifter
1276:Timeshifter
1246:WP:COATRACK
1214:moved from
1143:Timeshifter
1083:WP:COATRACK
1057:Weak delete
995:The Squicks
950:The Squicks
852:Timeshifter
816:Timeshifter
761:Timeshifter
723:Timeshifter
597:Timeshifter
456:Anarchangel
431:Timeshifter
400:WP:COATRACK
378:WP:COATRACK
350:Timeshifter
1366:Shuli Katz
1242:WP:POVFORK
1206:NonZionist
1087:WP:POVFORK
622:Imad marie
372:Change to
92:Sandstein
1820:Guest9999
1795:Xavexgoem
1358:Ron Yahye
1336:, 4, and
673:• Gene93k
647:• Gene93k
1855:Category
1641:Delirium
1595:Delirium
1415:B'Tselem
1291:Comment.
1164:Delirium
1099:Cerejota
1081:another
1066:23skidoo
788:Tkalisky
589:B'Tselem
586:Comment.
516:MuZemike
512:memorial
163:View log
1578:Comment
1529:WP:NPOV
1494:article
1443:undated
1062:WP:NPOV
1026:Comment
1009:Comment
983:Comment
848:WP:NPOV
812:WP:NPOV
806:. See:
593:Trachys
404:WP:NPOV
382:J.Mundo
282:Trachys
280:Times.
259:Comment
246:Trachys
230:here.
227:Comment
206:Comment
193:Trachys
130:protect
125:history
1808:Delete
1709:Delete
1696:GHcool
1328:, and
1257:crewer
1244:, and
1234:Delete
1160:Delete
1079:Delete
1013:Nick-D
934:Delete
915:Delete
780:Delete
687:Delete
554:Nick-D
529:Nick-D
508:Delete
489:Delete
481:(talk)
469:Delete
374:Delete
366:--Per
158:delete
134:delete
75:delete
1694:. --
1690:with
1633:D-Day
784:Nudve
746:Nudve
699:Nudve
697:. --
477:Tavix
323:Keep.
161:) – (
151:views
143:watch
139:links
16:<
1824:talk
1814:and
1799:talk
1777:talk
1758:EXÂ :
1755:Keep
1744:talk
1728:Keep
1717:talk
1700:talk
1671:talk
1645:talk
1639:. --
1618:talk
1599:talk
1593:. --
1561:talk
1503:talk
1492:the
1475:talk
1437:talk
1433:Cvrx
1320:and
1310:Keep
1299:talk
1280:talk
1274:. --
1252:brew
1248:. --
1225:talk
1210:talk
1178:Keep
1168:talk
1147:talk
1103:talk
1070:talk
1047:talk
1017:talk
999:talk
989:and
973:talk
965:Keep
954:talk
940:and
923:talk
899:talk
886:Keep
874:talk
856:talk
820:talk
814:. --
792:talk
765:talk
750:talk
742:this
727:talk
703:talk
677:talk
662:Note
651:talk
636:Note
626:talk
616:and
610:Keep
601:talk
577:talk
568:Note
558:talk
543:Note
533:talk
524:Keep
499:talk
471:per
460:talk
448:Keep
435:talk
386:talk
364:Keep
354:talk
301:talk
286:talk
271:talk
262:This
250:talk
236:talk
218:talk
197:talk
185:Keep
175:talk
147:logs
121:talk
117:edit
1789:to
1631:or
1547:or
1535:: "
1439:)
1180::
1042:RJH
1036:or
869:RJH
671:--
668:.
645:--
642:.
549:.
494:DGG
380:.--
1857::
1826:)
1818:.
1801:)
1779:)
1771:--
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1620:)
1612:--
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1301:)
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1218:by
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721:--
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1822:(
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49:.
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