1537:. The cited sourcing problems can all be resolved by ordinary editing, and the article spinouts are consistent with established practice toward treatment of complex multivolume fictional franchises of particular notable. This material would probably be better presented in combined form in more general articles, but that is an ordinary editing task.
1188:. I don't have any interest in debating notability and list policies (I got an email indicating that my talk page was changed which is why I'm "out of retirement" to post here), but the List of Species article is the one that is on the fence. If it was not bundled with the others they would all be quick and easy deletes.
1007:
let's not start on the superhero comics). If that's a problem though, it's a hell of a lot bigger one than just these
Redwall articles. Work to change it if you want, but that should be done from the top, via Village Pump & fiction projects, not by trying to pick off the fanboys, story arc by story arc.
1006:
about these
Redwall articles that leads me to consider their deletion. Yes, there are issues about in-universe sourcing and lack of external commentary. However WP does do fiction, and it does it in a way that permits articles on fictional topics to rely (perhaps excessively) on in-novel sources (and
1069:
How the hell do you posit that I'm "singling out" Redwall? There are plenty of other unrelated fiction articles that are just as poorly written, and lacking in out-of-universe notability. I bundled these articles because they're closely related and all have the same issues, not because I'm on some
1162:- No evidence of notability other than that inherited from Redwall. If merged to a larger Redwall article, they would represent an inappropriate and unencyclopaedic level of detail. They should therefore be deleted, not merged. These issues do not necessarily affect the main list, though. -
1319:
Inherent notability does not apply to fictional fantasy series. There is an encyclopedic justification to including every high-school or every pope, for example, no matter how unnotable they may be by themselves, on the basis that they are a high school or a pope. There is not justification to
985:
too much detail, no sources and no out-of-universe notability. There's little, if nothing, to merge. I fail to see any reason for ANY of this to have articles. Some merge proposals were brought up in 2009 but nothing came of them since apparently no one maintains the
Redwall articles.
1240:
a valid reason for deletion. As for the comment that these articles have no "out-of-universe notability", well I suppose that is fair, but how is it any different from wikipedia articles about the worlds and/or characters in other notable fictional fantasy series, such as those for
1554:- stand-alone article are required to have reliable coverage in independent sources and there is no indication that any of these qualify. Merging them would also be inappropriate because it's a bad idea to deal with sourceless cruft by shuffling it from place to place.
1054:
policy. You might be right to start from scratch and say that this fictional stuff just doesn't belong in an encyclopedia (mind you, good luck with that one), but singling out
Redwall as if it was some unusual aberration to be stamped out ASAP is unreasonable.
1334:
Apparently I misused the term "inherent notability" from a
Knowledge (XXG) policy standpoint, but what we're arguing over is the notability of this series and whether it's notable on it's own merits, as you mentioned. I argue that it most certainly is. It has
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I dispute the existence of any such concept, certainly not according to policy. This is not a paper-based encyclopedia. We have no page count to stay within. If there is a wish to increase detail, we can simply extend that article to cover it.
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of the list to show a hint of notability. Your arguments of "they are fictional characters, thus notability doesn't apply" makes no sense. They still need coverage from third party reliable sources to show notability.
1320:
include every fictional fantasy series jsut because it is a fictional fantasy series. You yourself agree to this when you use the word "famous", meaning that each series has to be notable on it's own merits.
1219:, either. Sourcing is a major problem, as well. If the compiler would like to see this material placed on the internet, WP is not the place for it. Nothing is preventing them from creating their own website.
1236:: I agree completely with the fact that these articles have serious issues with sourcing, but that could be easily fixed, as all the sources would be in-universe fiction. Not having proper sourcing is
1112:
1343:
noted, you can argue that articles on fictional material do not deserve to be in an encyclopedia, but assuming that this sort of thing is included, Redwall is certainly notable enough to stay.
1030:, right? Just getting that straight. Tell me how it gets to bypass having literally zero out-of-universe notability, or how it gets to bypass having literally zero secondary sources.
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I have read it. It comes down to an issue of
Inherent Notability. My argument is that the Redwall series is just as notable as many of the other famous fictional fantasy series.
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in particular doesn't oppose this. Firstly it's about neutrality, not detail. Secondly, the legitimate concerns about detail within an article relate to an excess of detail
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As to issues of poor sourcing including even in-universe sources, then that's just plain old clean up by editing, not deletion.
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have no "out-of-universe notability". In summary, do the articles need work: yes. Should they be deleted: absolutely not.
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be deleted. The notability of minor details from the series is the question. And again, you seem to be appealing to
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And again you're off-topic. The notability of the series itself is not at issue here, and no one is arguing that
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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article because they "would represent an inappropriate and unencyclopaedic level of detail".
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1418:. There would indeed be issues about detail on the minor badgers within a broad article on
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1211:: Details that are far too minor for their own articles, and probably for inclusion in
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All of these articles are nothing but in-universe, unsourced content with
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or even a precedent, it's a whole community behaviour by consensus and a
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that they probably aren't even notable enough for inclusion in the main
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1469:, which has 2,956 articles and is much better suited for fan content.
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notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists
601:— unsourced for over 3 years, tagged for merge since January 2009
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
320:— unsourced over 2 years, tagged for merge since January 2009
273:— unsourced over 2 years, tagged for merge since January 2009
1265:). You could even argue that many of the articles about
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list of
Fictional elements-related deletion discussions
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Whilst recognising the concern over sourcing, I see
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Delete all unless referenced before this AFD closes
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39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1587:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1416:in relation to the overall scope of that article
1091:list of Literature-related deletion discussions
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1133:Note: This debate has been included in the
1111:Note: This debate has been included in the
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1510:a plot-only description of a fictional work
1445:; if there is anything that remains useful
1135:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
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1516:shows no notability as a list-topic and
1504:: None of these fictional species meets
1257:(articles are too numerous to list), or
1449:it into the appropriate list articles (
1215:. Can't see any encyclopedic value in
508:— tagged for merge since January 2009
367:— tagged for merge since January 2009
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1403:"an unencyclopaedic level of detail"
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1426:, as has rightly been done here.
1520:, so it should also be deleted.
1506:the general notability guideline
1186:and nominate that one separately
653:Martin the Warrior (character)
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1337:sold over 20 million copies
46:Delete all except the list.
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1451:List of Redwall characters
1465:for this kind of stuff -
1580:Please do not modify it.
1424:Minor badgers in Redwall
935:Minor badgers in Redwall
794:Salamandastron (Redwall)
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32:Please do not modify it.
1514:List of Redwall species
1455:list of Redwall species
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1159:List of Redwall species
1070:anti-Redwall vendetta.
559:Shrew tribes in Redwall
226:— unsourced over a year
70:List of Redwall species
62:List of Redwall species
1243:A Song of Ice and Fire
1539:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
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1042:Yes. One article is
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1177:Delete all
888:Long Patrol
231:Badger Lord
147:free images
1552:Delete all
1502:Delete all
1471:Neutrality
1263:characters
1251:characters
1209:Delete all
1141:• Gene93k
1119:• Gene93k
1097:• Gene93k
419:Log-a-Log
1412:WP:UNDUE
1052:de facto
372:Foremole
114:View log
48:. v/r -
1512:. Even
1420:Redwall
1400:Comment
1371:Redwall
1359:Redwall
1213:Redwall
1004:nothing
977:— ditto
952:protect
947:history
905:protect
900:history
883:— ditto
858:protect
853:history
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811:protect
806:history
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764:protect
759:history
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665:history
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196:history
153:WP refs
141:scholar
87:protect
82:history
1522:Jfgslo
1457:, and
1179:except
1048:WP:OSE
1044:WP:OSE
956:delete
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346:delete
299:delete
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205:delete
125:Google
91:delete
1492:Blake
1463:Wikia
1345:Runch
1307:Runch
1271:Runch
1247:world
973:views
965:watch
961:links
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168:JSTOR
129:books
108:views
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96:links
16:<
1558:Reyk
1543:talk
1535:Keep
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1234:Keep
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1197:JEFF
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1000:Keep
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161:FENS
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104:logs
78:talk
74:edit
1565:YO!
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53:P
50:T
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