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519:". The CSD nomination was not appropriate, which I had explained earlier, as it did not meet the requirement of CSD#G11. The nom has provided a laundry list of links, but I too would like to know how the article fails to meet each of the guidelines. It's easy to list guidelines but the nom is claiming the article should be deleted, so he really needs to justify deletion, which a laundry list does not do. --
683:- Again, this is aimed more at the extrernal links section and again, simply linking to a site is not being promotional. The article is simply listing proxies for a site that is already the subject of an article and I don't see how any of the content can be considered promotional. It's far different form adding, say "MrX.com" to multiple articles where MrX.com is not relevant to the subject.
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links to an illegal site. You and CFCF have spent months attempting to add these links to an encyclopedia. You have not prevailed. Now, a new trick is being used to include new links, including links that will infect PCs with malware, against consensus. Frankly, it is difficult to imagine a purpose that is not malevolent.
1833:
album for years and censored in UK on child pornography grounds for it. We would be prevented from sourcing WikiLeaks or other news organizations that publish government documents as it is contributing to the access of top secret materials whose possession is deemed illegal by the State. We could not
1816:
It is my observation they've a bone to pick with other contributors (and this topic area in general) and have been lobbying for ways to have them banned from editing. This is largely an overflow of that outta control flamewar. As for
Foundation getting into trouble, not very likely as it is largely a
1346:
I was the person who started the RfC so I am well aware of what I was asking when I opened the RfC. It was started because there disagreement as to which links should be listed and only 1 of the 81 links in this article was the subject of the RfC. You are well aware of this, so I don't understand why
1976:
You really should stop lecturing editors. You've made three errors on three pages in the last hour attempting to do so. Believe what you want. But, my statement was what I saw and meant as an explanation to another editor as to why his suggestion would not apply. It was not an ad hominem. It was not
1422:
The CSD nom was rejected. If you have a problem with that, the correct process is to take it up with the admin who rejected it, or take the article to AfD. The latter option was chosen so that's where we are and should have been from the beginning. Restoring the speedy delete tag is not appropriate.
1088:
We had an RfC. CFCF's position did not prevail. He is now trying to sneak in links he failed to include in the original article. This is a blatant run-around of an RfC and
Knowledge (XXG) guidelines. Further, how many of these links guide people to malware sites? TPB proxies are well-known for this.
2412:
Interesting quote in the BBC article you cited: "UK internet service providers have begun blocking access to websites that provide a list of Pirate Bay alternatives, as part of the battle against online piracy." In other words, the UK is now blocking sites that do exactly what you are doing in this
1956:
Again false, there was an RfC on that page concerning the proper link(s) to use in the infobox when the main page had multiple official links. If by participating in discussion and restoring a smaller number of edits going against long-standing consensus to include a link (they removed all of them)
1262:
I have no idea what you are talking about. CFCF attempted to add links seven times in a massive edit-warring example. There was an RfC to keep these links, which did not prevail. As you know, the links keep changing due to the fact that government after government after government keeps killing the
2548:
I am not the one who put forward the notion that it is illegal (when it isn't) and would get the entire site censored. Also not the one to bring
Britannia into this. Not opinions, but facts. No freedom of speech or press in U.K.; can be imprisoned there just for reading something the State doesn't
1838:
because they carry out all kinds of digital preservation initiatives without permission of copyright holders. Google Books and
Newspapers, which we link to on every single AfD are also blatant copyright infringement and suits are still ongoing. It is illegal or unlawful in some European states to
1799:
I have no opinion on this to say I like or don't like it, but I'm thinking what could happen if it stays. I noticed this AfD because someone is contacting WMF legal to get their input on this. The foundation could get in trouble for having this page. To me it looks like a web directory, and
1216:
You can repeat this nonsense ad infinitum. But, it's misleading. The links keep changing, as you well know. He is attempting to include, surreptitiously, the same types of links (and many more) that the RfC consensus would not allow. At some point, you have to stop wasting everyone's time.
1446:
Pardon, so you feel this page is so important that we should just say screw the people that will have their PCs destroyed by malware? Is it really that important to aide and abet a criminal site? And please, do not again insist the site isn't illegal after the courts have said they are.
2491:
As stated, this list is comprised of notable sites already censored by various governments and corporations. Knowledge (XXG) is also already blocked by numerous repressive governments across the globe that wish to restrict the free flow of information. U.K. have blocked us over
1461:
No U.S. court has yet ruled on the legality and there are as yet no decisive court actions against it in U.S.. Malware troubles are your own problem for picking vulnerable platforms and exercising unsafe computing practices. Knowledge (XXG) would have to contain no links at
1166:
Please. You and he failed to get those links included in the article. So now, he created a new article with the same links, added many more, and linked to that list at the very top of the TPB article. And how many more times are you going to repeat those links? Words fail.
1406:
The speedy delete needs to be restored. This article has a list of links some of which point to malware sites. Why would anyone be in favor of such? If, for some odd reason, people thinks this makes sense, it can be restored and we can harm random people.
1622:
In fact, I was entertaining the idea to include it as prose, not as a list. The whole list as it stands now could collapse into about 3 full sentences ... "TPB used numerous proxies, including A, B, C, D ..., which all have been blocked by .... <ref:
1753:). On top of that this could potential make the WMF liable for hosting a page on ways to circumvent a site that is constantly being blocked by the governments of many countries. If people want to pirate stuff, they should find this stuff themselves.β
542:
Per G11: "Pages that are exclusively promotional, and would need to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic." The page does nothing more than to direct readers elsewhere. That's what makes it promotional, rather than informational. -
1645:
The article is unencylopedic in accordance with a range of the policies mentioned above. Anyone who wants a list of Pirate Bay proxies can type "pirate bay proxy" into a search engine. There is no need for a
Knowledge (XXG) article to do
1800:
Knowledge (XXG) is not a web directory. I fail to see how there is any notability in these proxies. I know the pirate bay itself is notable, so if you want these links, I suggest merging them into the main article, and condensing it.β
1370:
When you started the RfC, you presented a false dichotomy. It was corrected and the discussion was wide-ranging. The conclusion was no multiple links. It doesn't matter which links. If 5 aren't allowed, 81 certainly are allowed.
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per nom and per the list creator's consistent attempts to circumvent consensus, ignore policies and guidelines, and badger everyone who opposes him into providing justification that has already been provided many times.
974:. This is an expression of the frustration I and several other editors have experienced when trying to discuss this topic with you. Additionally, though you were not involved in it, the earliest of these discussions,
2413:
article. Will the UK block
Knowledge (XXG) if we continue aiding and abetting copyright? The article would suggest so. Why would an encyclopedia do this? I am more and more convinced this should be a speedy delete.
957:
As the number of specific diffs in which you do these things is staggering, I will link to all of the relevant discussions in which these claims are founded, in chronological order of the discussion's start:
726:
is an overarchng policy that describes what
Knowledge (XXG) is NOT. Suggesting that it applies to a portion of an article, but not an article consisting almost entirely of external links is nonsensical.-
2392:
The introduction to the article discusses the type of site quite extensively - so those citations would be a good start: , but there are numerous references out there that aren't in the article: , etc.
1058:
No, because neither is this article, it gives information on blocks and is fully sourced where the proxies are treated as notable in and of themselves-additionally so for being blocked in some countries.
2354:
You will find that your argument strengthens the rationale of keeping the list. TPB proxies are extensively discussed by reliable sources, not in the very least by those that are linked in the article.
2202:
Repeating an inapplicable guideline over and over will not "beat it to mush". The sourced independently demonstrate notability for proxies, this article lists them according to the reliable sources.
1305:
Could you please try reading what was written? The RfC was specifically about adding a limited list of links to the article's infobox. Only one of those links has been listed here so the claim that
2508:
1780:. It doesn't matter than they can get it somewhere else, we don't remove it for that reason. The rationale you specifically refer to is an ad hominem attack and does not carry any weight.
751:
The Pirate Bay proxies are not encyclopedic content. Full stop. Mass linking to pages with content not in accord with
Knowledge (XXG)'s purpose (being an encyclopedia) is a form of spam.-
405:
Knowledge (XXG) is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. Articles which merely include an external link and a brief description of its contents may be deleted.
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That seems like a very dubious rationale. So because the list can potentially be used in the manner it therefor classifies as a directory. That isn't the way
Knowledge (XXG) operates.
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over unlawful censorship without judicial process. Wikimedia is a U.S. based organization not bound by oppressive controls U.K. exacts over its media ( where you've to be licensed to
2316:... not the individual components of the list. So... the key question is whether the topic of the list ("proxy servers for The Pirate Bay") has been discussed (in reasonable depth)
2278:
Nobody is buying what you're selling here dude... It is so blatantly a violation of these things you claim it isn't violating that it's becoming ridiculous. Just... Let it go man.
664:- The links are provided within a single article aimed specifically at listing proxies for a website so they do not constitute spam. Nor is the article an advertisement for a site.
480:
published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, television documentaries, websites, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations
209:
List article that serves no purpose other than to provide external links to websites that facilitate copyright infringement. Was incorrectly declined for speedy deletion under
2378:
of the sources cited in the article do you think discuss TPB proxies (as a group or set) in reasonable detail?... post them here, so we can examine and discuss them further.
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is blatantly incorrect. To say it another way, 80 of the 81 links in this article were not the subject of the RfC. I really don't think I can say this any more simply. --
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Your continuing claims that I don't read are boorish. The RfC was about adding multiple links. Your position did not prevail. As I predicted, you would ignore the RfC.
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Is
Knowledge (XXG) to get into the business of validating links to aide and abet intellectual property violations? Knowledge (XXG) has stated a respect for IP rights.
2374:
Looking at the sources in the article, I didn't find what I am talking about. However, I am always willing to to be proved wrong... so, could you be more specific...
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1942:. Now you are trying to circumvent all the discussions on the subject by putting links here and adding a link to this article at the very top of the TPB article.
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That the RFC had nothing to do with the links being included in this article is not nonsense. That only one of the links listed is included is not nonsense. That
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for the service providers to block such proxies ... since we give them a handy list of which websites they should block. And... if all the websites on our list
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698:
I'm not saying that this article should not be deleted (or kept), I'm just saying that your justifcation for deletion is based on a lot of invalid arguments. --
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1586:, in prose form. None of the items in the list will every rise to the level that they will be independently notable so that they will get an own article. --
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The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes
612:: "Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam."
431:(which maybe ought to be deleted). It does not apply here, there is description of contents as well as additional information about regional blocks.
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The two sources for the list are of dubious reliability (TorrentFreak.com and nextinpact.com). Also, two minor source don't establish notability.-
681:
Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam
693:
discussion mentioned an email from WMF legal that said there was no outright ban on linking to the site, so this copyright thing is a non-issue
193:
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2066:, sure, but are at best mere passing mentions for the domains. "Giving information on the blocks" (per CFCF above) is sufficiently done at
1519:. Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory, and not a repository of links to external websites. I also agree that this could potentially violate
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581:: Links to avoid: "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article."
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By being mentioned sufficiently in reliable sources. They are obviously notable enough to have articles written specifically about them.
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etc.. Therefor is prime candidate for its own stand alone list. Entries themselves do seem to be sourced to reliable third-parties. --
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sources that discuss "proxies of The Pirate Bay" as a unique phenomenon or concept... no sources that discuss them as "group or set".
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does not apply β these are all notable for being blocked or otherwise important. None of the 7 points listed in that guideline apply:
570:: "There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however,
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Would it be better if I point at "Knowledge (XXG) is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files" on that pageΒ ? --
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domains already censored by ISP and is public information as demonstrated by cited sources. Other than that, we have information on
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The list as current would not be unsuitable for inclusion within parent article as it is simply too lengthy and would not adhere to
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Referring to the U.K. as a repressive government is not likely to convince anyone. Please stop inserting your political beliefs.
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http://en.yibada.com/articles/45784/20150715/new-proxy-websites-added-to-uk-piracy-blockade-list-featuring-the-pirate-bay.htm
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is incorrect and misleading is not nonsense. About the only valid thing you've said in your latest post is that they are the
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In addition to proxies, the service providers are blocking proxy list sites, like this article. That's what the quote says.
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by independent reliable sources. I think the answer to that is "no". What I see is a string of sources that each mention
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Simply linking to a site is not being promotional, which is partly why CSD#G11 does not apply. As for your other comments:
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Far from it. You spent months edit-warring, putting multiple links in the article over and over and over in violation of
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The RfC had absolutely nothing to do with the links presented in this article. The RfC was specifically about including
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Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article.
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which will get you and your family disappeared, tortured, killed or worse in China. Wikimedia has hosted the cover of
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http://www.idigitaltimes.com/isohunts-old-pirate-bay-new-proxy-torrent-search-site-unofficially-brings-popular-400662
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Entirely incorrect, the colors specifically refer to blocks in the country. It is all properly referenced as per
56:. There were reasonable attempts to distinguish the applicability of the policy, but they were soundly rejected.
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599:: "One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by '
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515:- The nominator is incorrect in asserting that the article was "incorrectly declined for speedy deletion under
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and is legal constitutionally protected speech. At least one member of WMF Board supports such free expression
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588:- "There are three main types of spam on Knowledge (XXG). These are: advertisements masquerading as articles;
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a resource for helping people locate pirated software and generating clicks for TPB.-
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One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by '
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There are three main types of spam on Knowledge (XXG). These are: advertisements masquerading as articles;
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http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/dutch-court-shuts-down-wordpress-based-pirate-bay-proxy-1088423
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Our policies and guidelines are not intended to be interpreted so narrowly. We're not a bureaucracy.-
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Our policies and guidelines are not intended to be interpreted so narrowly. We're not a bureaucracy.-
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http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/12/bpi-gets-serious-over-pirate-party-bay-proxy-maybe-sending-a-letter/
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horse is pretty much beaten into near mush. Plus IMO the sources used may demonstrate notability for
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655:- This is aimed at the external links section, not at articles that are solely aimed at being a list.
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619:: "Infringing copyrights, trademarks, patents, or other proprietary rights under applicable law." -
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1677:, I believe Knowledge (XXG) is now aiding and abetting copyright. This page should be deleted now.
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Directories, directory entries, electronic program guide, or a resource for conducting business
649:- That's aimed at lists within articles, not at articles that are solely aimed at being a list.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Note that that policy is inapplicable to the article, none of the points there are violated.
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Which of the 7 points in that policy document do you find this article to be in violation of?
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This list is exactly a repository of links with little to no description of their contents. β
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Infringing copyrights, trademarks, patents, or other proprietary rights under applicable law
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6. WMF-legal have stated that additions are up to editor discretion. See the discussion at
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592:; and adding references with the aim of promoting the author or the work being referenced."
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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/unblocked-proxy-piracy-site-more-popular-spotify-skype-uk-1513810
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http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/dutch-pirate-bay-court-decision-impact-proxy-sites/
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Unhelpful flame war. Cool it or I'm going to seek a mutual interaction ban for you two. -
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/12/pirate-bay-birthday-internet-freedom
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like, or a simple racist tweet. Is a reason WMF incorporated in U.S. and not Britain. --
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http://www.trademarksandbrandsonline.com/news/pirate-bay-proxy-sites-blocked-in-uk-4293
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excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Knowledge (XXG).
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tl;dr clarfication of each policy and guideline linked in my nomination statement
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Could you please elaborate on which section of those policies that is violated?
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He tried adding to the main site and failed. That's why he created this fork.
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that specializes in linking to other web sites and categorizing those links.
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2304:- Setting the NOTDIRECTORY issue aside... I don't think this list passes
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you call edit-warring β I would suggest you study the policy documents.
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Again, the RFC had nothing to do with the the links in this article and
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Actually, no it doesn't, as the list goes against this paragraph in the
2507:
television). Linking to material is not illegal or unlawful in the U.S.
1673:
Now that CFCF has started verifying which proxies are accessible using
1468:
213:. The article is based almost entirely on questionable sources. Fails
2018:. Knowledge (XXG) is not a repository for links to illegal websites.
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e1c81f7c-81b3-11e2-ae78-00144feabdc0.html
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is incorrect. Of the links that were the subject of the RfC, only
676:- There are numerous independent reliable sources in the article.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
52:. There was very strong consensus that the article ran afoul of
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Directories, directory entries, electronic program guide, or a
1624:. Only .. and .. have not been taken offline ...<ref: -->
2632:
Seems there's strong consensus that NOTDIRECTORY applies. --
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On the other hand, by providing a list, we actually make it
2675:
http://www.engadget.com/2015/03/11/pirate-bay-proxy-blocks/
2308:. NSAL repeatedly calls for notability to be based on the
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attacks add no rationale for deletion. Neither do we count
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is included in this article. Please stick to the facts. --
1133:
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978:, provides more context to the genesis of this dispute. β
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so maybe one should not be on the internets at all. --
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Talk:The Pirate Bay#Link List of The Pirate Bay proxies
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Patently false, please do not resort to ad hominem.
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So now, he created a new article with the same links
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2117:Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2811:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1854:Please stop inserting your political opinions.
808:4. It now links the French court order as well.
2564:Please stop inserting your political beliefs.
1523:, as pointed out by the nominating statement.
427:That applies to single external links such as
474:
267:list of Websites-related deletion discussions
249:list of Internet-related deletion discussions
8:
2435:blocked, the article would quickly become a
1479:is of concern. And, of course, there is the
1347:you are persisting in misleading readers. --
1233:he created a new article with the same links
340:Note: This debate has been included in the
301:Note: This debate has been included in the
283:Note: This debate has been included in the
265:Note: This debate has been included in the
247:Note: This debate has been included in the
2775:http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31832137
2664:http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31832137
2068:The Pirate Bay#Domain blocking by countries
285:list of Piracy-related deletion discussions
2498:before. We have even blocked ourselves(!)
1877:
342:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
339:
300:
282:
264:
246:
960:Talk:The Pirate Bay/Archive 7#Short links
368:. Other violations have not been proven.
2332:proxies (and often not in depth)... but
1839:even use quotations. Slippery slope. --
1739:- mainly per everyone above, especially
1539:we are not writing the yellow pages. --
303:list of Law-related deletion discussions
2656:
2182:Non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations
1558:List of notable The Pirate Bay proxies
1306:
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964:Talk:The Pirate Bay#RfC - 24 July 2015
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18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1307:There was an RfC to keep these links
968:Talk:The Pirate Bay#torrentfreak.com
878:WMF legal said that it's up to the
788:Contributory copyright infringement
24:
2058:Can't say about the TOU, but the
1696:) 13:06, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
2235:resource for conducting business
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1239:. That's far less misleading. --
466:
450:How does it pass notability? --
366:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (web)
2306:WP:Notability#Stand-alone lists
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241:21:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
88:List of The Pirate Bay proxies
80:List of The Pirate Bay proxies
74:01:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
1:
857:concerning the main article.
670:independent reliable sources
601:independent reliable sources
2437:List of blocked TPB proxies
2197:without context information
401:, in that it is not a site
2828:
2036:Oops. Corrected location.
1485:Tailored Access Operations
2143:The White or Yellow Pages
397:Knowledge (XXG) is not a
2800:Please do not modify it.
1481:National Security Agency
32:Please do not modify it.
1237:the same types of links
661:external link spamming
590:external link spamming
482:
2286:Everlasting Splendors
2044:Everlasting Splendors
2026:Everlasting Splendors
976:WP:ELN#The Pirate Bay
364:β very clear pass of
2590:- per NOTDIRECTORY.
2130:Genealogical entries
2070:, and beyon that is
1477:information security
617:The WMF Terms of Use
231:The WMF Terms of Use
938:without rationale.
1139:in the infobox at
1001:is not a directory
999:- Knowledge (XXG)
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