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single, alphabetically-ordered list is preferrable; (2) no information whatsoever needs to be provided for the individuals so categorized; and (3) the category's topic is not significantly disputed or overly complex, such that any of its entries would require sourcing to justify inclusion. 2 and 3 fail, and 1 may fail as well (if we decide to expand the list to include all variants of "agnosticism" and have different sections for each), so clearly a list is better than a category in this case—though I see absolutely no reason not to do both.
335:, and better than outright deletion. Again, there is a double standard at work here.) I take issue with some of your claims about the supposed compatibility of other belief systems, but will skip over those objections and cut to the salient point: Making distinctions between belief systems can be complicated, but it is possible to do it with reasonable care and verification, and the existence of these lists of people by belief can help clarify the overlaps and distinctions.
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does include people who don't necessarily use the word to identify themselves, since the concept of divine unknowability existed before the word was invented to fit the concept. For example, certainly Huxley was an agnostic before he came up with the word). A list in the main article might be ok, as long as it doesn't get too long. A category has the drawback of not allowing for clear and easy citation to justify a person's inclusion in the category.
753:. The motivation for the nom is not important to me, even if it was in bad faith, and your change of heart is reflected in your Weak Keep and then Keep votes. I don't think the AfD can/should be withdrawn. I am opposed to almost all listing by religion because an individual's religious beliefs are far too complex to be neatly summarized on a list- most people struggle with religion throughout their lives. What list does
599:, (1809-1882), founder of the theory of evolution; member of the Anglican church and attended Unitarian services. Wrote: "my judgment often fluctuates...In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."
489:" because I got so irritated with the snarkiness of the editing process there I thought it might shake "things up." I was newer them. This one was because I got mad about religion related lists being hated so I wondered if irreligion lists would get the same treatment. I guess they do, although in a sense this is another belief related list. Can someone explain why things concerning
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them and add names one by one, with proper citations of other articles or sources. There are less than fifty names now, and in all likelihood there would be far less than fifty after you eliminate the
Buddhas and the Protagorases and the people whose agnosticism is a footnote completely unrelated to their notability. It's not as if the list were too long to include in
216:. Buddhism is consistent with agnosticism, since Buddhism is not a theistic religion. The Dalai Lama might not be an agnostic, but his Buddhist faith does not preclude that possibility. There are people on this list whose agnosticism ought to be verified. There also might be people who ought to be removed from the list. But the article itself ought to remain.
102:, so saying someone born before Huxley was "an agnostic" is as wildly speculative as calling someone born before Christ "a Christian." There is no obvious connection between the religious beliefs of many of these people and the things for which they are noted. As with some other lists of this kind, it is poorly defined and badly sourced. For example, it includes "
323:"revealed." However, agnosticism is not a revealed religion dependent on the teachings of any prophet. As I said before, it is a general epistemological principle with respect to God, and does not depend on any revelator for its existence. Did Huxley "reveal" agnosticism to the world? Of course not. He merely invented a word for an already existing concept.
48:. Since this was an admittedly bad-faith nom, I'd like to see much better than a numerical tie to delete. This is a good example of why one can't effectively retract an AfD nomination: other editors, acting in good-faith, have expressed their desires for the article and should still be listened to. I read the talk page too, by the way. -
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hacks many of you off so bad? Anyway I did start believing what I was saying so thought maybe I wasn't in bad faith. That came after about 30 hours of no sleep. After a good sleep I realize now I have made a terrible error as it seems this really will get deleted. That's not what I want. I would like
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on their watchlist wouldn't even necessarily know that the list has been created. And, people treat lists as a sort of challenge: "Can I contribute to this list? Can I think of someone who could possibly go on this list who isn't there now?" So, they tend to accumulate borderline items, rumors, vague
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Lists such as these tend to accumulate borderline articles because they can be perceived as trivia challenges. "Can I think of someone to add to the list?" Worse, they become unintentional POV forks. Main articles are watched closely by people familiar with the subject matter. I don't think you could
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than a list because it wouldn't be able to explain the nuances or situations surrounding each individual's specific agnostic beliefs, or provide sources or citations to justify the claim that the people listed are indeed agnostic. Categories are only better than lists when (1) having everything in a
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Concerning
Buddhism/agnosticism compatibility: I never suggested that anyone who has a belief that is not incompatible with agnosticism ought to be listed here, but only that identification by another label is not necessarily grounds for exclusion. Some belief systems are compatible or overlap with
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be "improved," it can only be rebuilt from scratch, because nothing in it says what the criteria for inclusion are or what the justification for including each name is. There's so much garbage in there that every name needs to be checked individually. The only way to fix it would be to remove all of
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to his name almost as easily as he could add him to this list. Maybe moreso because lists seemed to be watched much more strictly now due to the proliferation of, what I'd mostly agree, are stupid ones. Added to that nothing on his article is changed by being on a list, whereas
Categorization does.
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I went ahead and deleted all of those listed whose own biography pages on
Knowledge did not verify their agnostic status. Note that Protagoras remains, though he predates Huxley's coinage of the word agnostic. This is because he wrote: "Concerning the gods, I have no means of knowing whether they
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Incorporating the verified agnostics (those who self-identify as such, or those who express a documentable view on the knowability of God that can correctly be called "agnostic") into the main article might be a good idea. I still believe that a list of agnostics is not inherently inappropriate for
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I respect that, but in a way a
Category has a worse problem on this. In a list you can in least annotate and explain. In a category a name is just there and kind of effects the article. If a priest was on record saying sometimes he wasn't sure about the existence of God a poorly thought out person
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It's on the way to being more verified. I think a verify tag for a few weeks would be enough. I rarely put things up for deletion so I don't know how, or if I can, withdraw this. It was very close to being a joke nomination, I'm a little irritated it's still taken seriously. This article has been
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The reason for it to have its own article is because we expect it to become much larger. If we merged it, it would just have to be unmerged as soon as someone put any work into expanding it; easier to leave it separate. Merge it if you really want, but I prefer merging articles where there's not a
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The list can be improved, by making the criteria for inclusion specific, and insisting on documentation for each entry. I agree that the criteria shouldn't be "whoever a particular person thinks is an agnostic." It should be whether this person is/was in fact, and verifiably, an agnostic (and this
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As for agnostics before Huxley, would you accept a list of
Christians who lived before Christ or Muslims who lived before Mohammed? Suppose someone were to argue that Christianity and Islam do not exclude each other, for which a good case can be made—I believe Muslims make precisely this claim. If
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says (as you'd expect) that "The current Dalai Lama (the 14th) is a respected
Tibetan Buddhist religious leader." So, this is really a "List of people who some Wikipedians thinks are agnostics, or would be if they had lived after 1870, and regardless of what they themselves declare their religious
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cannot be made just as useful as these other lists. Since agnosticism is a general epistemological position with regard to a belief held widely throughout history (theism), it is perfectly legitimate to apply such a label to persons who lived before the word was coined. The position existed long
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be added in again later, but only if whoever adds them can verify their agnostic status with a citation. I'm watching the page, and will be vigilant in enforcing this standard. I believe these changes adequately address the important concerns of those who have thus far supported deletion, and
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Not inherently unmanageable, for reasons mentioned above (criteria can be tightened and made explicit, verification can be made a must for inclusion). No subjectivity is necessary for inclusion of self-identified agnostics, and very little is necessary to reasonably include those who express
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Members of the list are unverified, not unverifiable. Criteria is not hopelessly broad, since a generally accepted definition of agnosticism does exist, and all that is needed is to more rigorously apply this definition to the list. A category might be appropriate, but why should a list of
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The case of revealed religions is not at all comparable to that of agnosticism with respect to adherence before coinage. Belief in revealed religion is dependent on the revelations of a prophet or prophets, and it is indeed untenable to claim that such a religion had adherents before it was
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before the word was coined. Agnostics who lived before Huxley coined the word may be listed, as may people who have not used the word explicitly to label themselves, provided it can be substantiated that their position is consistent with the position described in
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a Jew, a
Christian, an atheist? Jewish law would have one answer, the Nazis another, and historians debate these types of questions for decades if not centuries. The proper place for us to address the issue is within the context of their bio pages.
625:. Lists can provide something categories never can: specific information on each entry in the list, vitally important to something as vague as "agnosticism", with its numerous definitions and gradations. If anything, a category would be much
593:, (d.420 BCE), Greek Sophist and first major Humanist: "Concerning the gods, I have no means of knowing whether they exist or not or of what sort they may be, because of the obscurity of the subject, and the brevity of human life."
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it to be cleaned up and essentially "tightened up", meaning limited to people who strongly identify as
Agnostic, but I regret the idea of deleting it. I'm wondering if I can withdraw my nomination. If not I change my vote anyway to
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others, while others are exclusive. Many
Unitarians were Deists, and many Deists were Unitarians, so it's not unreasonable to have some people on both lists. In fact, Thomas Jefferson is one such person. (Note the call on the
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around since September 2001 and if done right can have a purpose. If it gets deleted I oh all you interested in this topic a huge apology. This is not what I was expecting and I reject the whole vote again in strong terms.--
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Conversely, you say "Buddhism is consistent with agnosticism." Well, Christianity is consistent with Judaism. Would you accept Christians on a list of Jews? Episcopalians on a list of Catholics? Unitarians in a list of
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I've looked at this article on occasional, I've looked at the agnosticism article maybe once. I know what agnosticism is and if I don't I have plenty of books to explain it better. Who is agnostic I don't necessarily
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articles and lists are inherently assumed to only include "notable" entries and information) and lack of experience with the thousands of lists and categories that do not have "notable" in their name— because it's
207:, all of which serve as useful supplements to their respective "ism" articles, since they help put beliefs in a cultural context by linking them with widely recognized people. I see no reason to suppose that
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to moving this article to "List of notable agnostics", as Jtmichcock suggested above. Such a suggestion demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of Knowledge article and list notability qualifications
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But it doesn't matter what you or I think. We are not authorities—well, I am not, anyway—and Knowledge is not founded on the authority of its contributors. This list itself as a "list of agnostics," not a
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then there'd be no problem because the reader could then judge for himself whether or not the person used the word agnostic, and, if they did not, whether they were agnostics in the opinion of the reader.
485:. That was only not totally bad faith, I really do think that list is silly. However if "list delete mania" hadn't caught on I admit I wouldn't have bothered. My first "bad faith delete" vote was "
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The list need not be verified as a whole, but its particular members need to be verified. I'll admit that most of the members are not verified. This does not mean that they are unverifiable.
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That solves the verifiability/authority problem and it makes an interesting page that seems to have some reason to exist beyond categories or the individual articles. For example:
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agnostics be unacceptable, whereas the other lists of people by belief are acceptable. This seems to be a very arbitrary and hasty call for deletion of this particular list.
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Agnostics are scarcer than hen's teeth—rarer than atheists, I think. I just checked out the category, and really, it's about what expected, except for the obvious omission of
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Oh dear. This is only one of three bad faith delete votes I've ever done. Every time I do it I feel fairly guilty. Well except the one most widely seen as bad faith,
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evidence that the Dalai Lama calls himself an agnostic? What business have people got putting the Dalai Lama on a list like this without providing such a reference?
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exist or not or of what sort they may be, because of the obscurity of the subject, and the brevity of human life." That's agnosticism, folks. Those I've deleted
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You're consistent, I like that. My initial intention was slightly insincere. And I realize it pretty much was insincere now. I apologize to everyone.(edited by--
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agnostic views without explicitly labeling them "agnostic." Knowledge would be mostly empty and useless if all partly subjective evaluations were eliminated.
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could be improved by making inclusion criteria specific. The temptation to add unverified trivia will be diminished when such criteria are explicated up front.
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can easily monitor this page as well, as it should be linked to quite prominently on that page. But aside from that, it makes little difference either way. -
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strong chance that it will have the potential to be a good article on its own in the near future. And the argument about a separate page keeping away the
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Thanks for the semi-retraction. I will do my best to improve the list, and hope that it will not be deleted. First step: pruning the unverified.
577:"Those whose agnosticism cannot be verified are not listed here," that passive-voice leaves unanwered the question "verified on whose authority."
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someone made a good case that some Christian prior to Mohammed had Muslim-like beliefs, would you accept that person on a list of Christians?
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Oh possibly "Category Agnostics" is rather underpopulated. I picked this one mostly because it's about the oldest "List of people" at Wiki.--
451:
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to "redefine the list, complete it, prune it, or discuss its parameters on the talk page." This would be an appropriate notice for the
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Note: Creator of this AfD, me, has since admitted bad faith in making it. He also thinks this debate is getting overly long/endless.--
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Nothing you've said explains why a list of agnostics shouldn't go in the article on agnosticism. Why split it off from its context?
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789:: You make some good points. I'm going to try and rethink my vote in the context of this list before the end of the day. --
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If each name were to be accompanied by a supporting quotation and a source for that quotation, preferable a quotation
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you've got a mighty short list, self-identified agnostics being quite a bit scarcer than self-identified Catholics.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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needs more specific criteria, it needs pruning, and it needs verification. Deletion is too extreme a solution.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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No real evidence on many of these. Many of them are not noteworthy for their agnosticism. And so forth.--
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303:. I believe there is a double standard in viewing those other lists as acceptable, while rejecting the
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without its receiving some degree of review. But lists are treated far more casually. Someone who has
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No more useful than a category. And Inaccurate on the face of it, since agnosticism was originated by
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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as inherently unmanageable, subjective criteria almost always will have to be deployed.
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If you're in favor of removing agnostics as a category then disreagard the following.--
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The reasons given here justify improving the article, not deleting it.
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assumed unless stated otherwise. The current article title is fine. -
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Go one step (admittedly medium-large step) further and I'll support.
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list of people whose beliefs are not inconsistent with agnosticism
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Right. And by the time you trim it down people who were important
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It's going in the right direction then. I change my vote to just
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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go on? Jew, Christian, atheist, agnostic- all of the above? Was
500:. Weak because I admit there are still problems with the idea.--
106:, (1935-), the 14th and current Dalai Lama," but our article on
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editors is invalid, because it could be used to argue against
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603:, Ch. VIII, p. 274. New York, D. Appleton & Co., 1905
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A current problem with the page is that although it
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too broad - and impossible to verify as a whole. --
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
809:that followed has been moved to the discuss page--
110:does not say he is an agnostic and our article on
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276:list of people who Rohirok thinks are agnostics
245:were to long to include them. By my reckoning,
100:the first recorded use of the word was in 1870
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262:memories of vague claims, and so forth.
668:page separations—anyone interested in
601:The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin
142:self-identify as agnostics as adults,
140:assuming you include only people who
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549:and apologize again for making it.--
176:qualifies as well but I'm not sure.
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491:Category:Lists of people by belief
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
820:Please read before voting. --
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247:agnosticism
243:agnosticism
239:agnosticism
214:Agnosticism
811:T. Anthony
779:T. Anthony
772:could add
743:T. Anthony
686:T. Anthony
591:Protagoras
551:T. Anthony
502:T. Anthony
408:Jtmichcock
394:Jtmichcock
284:verifiable
169:... and I
158:T. Anthony
129:T. Anthony
112:Dalai Lama
80:T. Anthony
68:T. Anthony
759:Karl Marx
755:Bob Dylan
497:Weak keep
438:A Man In
241:or as if
232:The list
727:Dpbsmith
699:Also, a
639:Dpbsmith
607:Dpbsmith
452:past ops
448:conspire
288:Dpbsmith
178:Dpbsmith
146:Dpbsmith
117:Dpbsmith
787:Comment
751:Comment
715:Silence
684:know.--
674:Silence
538:Rohirok
517:Rohirok
468:Rohirok
422:Rohirok
377:Rohirok
344:Rohirok
270:deists?
218:Rohirok
92:Delete.
723:Delete
711:always
642:(talk)
610:(talk)
434:Delete
404:Rename
390:Delete
358:Delete
291:(talk)
181:(talk)
149:(talk)
120:(talk)
50:Splash
627:worse
533:might
441:Bl♟ck
234:can't
197:Keep.
171:think
16:<
822:JJay
791:JJay
764:JJay
731:JJay
729:. --
725:per
623:Keep
575:says
547:Keep
402:and
400:Keep
706:all
666:any
362:Doc
278:or
816:)
762:--
450:|
805:(
704:(
454:)
446:(
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