539:- While I believe a list of ground-attack aircraft sorted by tank-kills (or other target metric) is notable if backed up by verifiable RS... The current article seems to be solely based on Obermaier (and also might be missing quite a few pilots) - which is, as per K.e.coffman, a questionable source - and in this case a single source. If the article were to be improved in sourcing, I would change my vote.
733:
and for quite a many of these pilots, we don't know much about their "successes". "Tank claims" and "aerial claims" are not criteria which can fully account for the "successes" of ground attacks. The Ju 87, for example, became an antitank weapon only during the war. What about attacks on targets like bridges, fortifications, ships, troops, or cities? --
732:
I am not sure what this list is about. It's certainly not a list of "combat aircraft aces". It seems to be simply a list of KC recipients among German ground attack aircraft personnel. Or is there another reason why gunners and radio operators are also included? It's been sorted by combat missions
166:
92:
87:
212:
The article relies on a single, less than RS source. Obermaier (1989) (originally published in the 1960s) is a questionable source; see discussion at de.wiki on an attempted promotion of a list covering
Luftwaffe fighter pilots to a Featured List:
96:
214:
79:
674:
686:
682:
678:
160:
487:
And the idea that since no one has used the term "ace" to describe very successful pilots of ground attack aircraft means we can't have a list of said pilots is, frankly, ridiculous in the purest sense of the word.
219:
The author is not to be criticized for the fact that no scientific literature has been used, because there are none. (...) According to WP:Q, the lack of scientific literature points to a lack of relevance
126:
312:
711:(although he's not on this list), but who else? What do you have to do to become one? That other deleted book is hardly enough to show that this is a widely recognized status.
181:
119:
763:
742:
720:
702:
664:
647:
630:
613:
588:
570:
548:
528:
497:
443:
417:
403:
356:
324:
304:
284:
264:
244:
61:
148:
751:
252:
369:. Since he participated in the pilot's victories, some have argued for it, but I don't think this idea gained traction. The AfD closed as delete for lack of notability.
292:
272:
197:
An unnecessary cross-categorisation. Most of the subjects included are redirects to another list for lack of individual notability. Per the outcome of the discussion:
431:
516:
430:, is useful, since a flying ace is a recognised concept. But not for any other "aces". The article on "Submarine aces" has been likewise deleted / redirected; see
341:"Being an "ace" may get you on a list, but if there are insufficient sources to write a balanced biography, such article should be deleted or redirected to a list"
336:
142:
138:
83:
557:
Perhaps you missed my rebuttal of that argument, perhaps because K.e.coffman tried to hide it before you commented here. But, in case you did not see it,
391:
655:. The criteria are muddled beyond repair. How did aces get mixed into "highly-decorated" (no hyphen BTW)? There's no such thing as a ground-attack ace.
188:
75:
67:
228:
in 2007, when
Knowledge (XXG)'s criteria for inclusion were more lax. (Specifically, such "aces" do not exist; for a comparative concept, pls see
456:
AfD, you are arguing, in part, that since the individuals on the list are not all independently notable, the list should be deleted. Clear now?
229:
154:
427:
17:
579:
Basing the list on a single source still is problematic. If sourcing were to even marginally improved then I will change my opinion.
225:
707:
Your references don't much support the notability of the concept of a "stuka ace". Rudel is called that, and in one instance
783:
638:. List article lacks clear selection criteria (define "highly-decorated"). Content could possibly be useful elsewhere.
558:
481:
40:
217:. The nomination failed mostly because of the source, which was described as weak and dated. One of the comments was:
476:
Criticism of
Obermaier: what a random, anonymous editor on de.wiki thinks about a given source is irrelevant. Also,
673:
seems to attest to the concept, and the term "Stuka ace" seems to be well-attested as well, see for instance
626:
470:
716:
660:
452:
notable, and that in the event that they are not individually notable, they belong in a list of aces. In
387:
779:
524:
439:
399:
379:
320:
300:
280:
260:
240:
36:
383:
477:
335:- I don't know whether it's amusing or evidence of tendentious editing that the nominator claims at
202:
708:
698:
566:
493:
352:
174:
622:
602:
there are insufficient sources to show that even their notability even as a group is accepted
365:
That was part of a discussion on whether a radar operator (Erich Handke) should be considered a
345:"Most of the subjects included are redirects to another list for lack of individual notability"
759:
738:
712:
656:
621:-- There is no obvious boundary at which to draw the line, so that inclusion is a POV issue.
584:
544:
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
778:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
35:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
643:
520:
435:
395:
316:
296:
276:
256:
236:
57:
413:
235:
For the reasons above, the list lacks encyclopedic relevance and I recommend deleting it.
694:
562:
489:
348:
609:
466:
394:. As I've pointed above, such lists of the Allied "ground attack aces" do not exist.
755:
734:
580:
540:
113:
344:
340:
639:
53:
423:
409:
386:
do not exist. Grouping them into a list serves no encyclopedic purpose and is
366:
604:
448:
At the Handke AfD, you argued, in part, that flying aces are not
232:). Such lists do not exist for the Allied "ground attack aces".
772:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
422:
Please help me understand your point. As I mentioned, a list of
76:
List of highly-decorated German pilots of ground attack aircraft
68:
List of highly-decorated German pilots of ground attack aircraft
209:. These articles have been redirected to alphabetical lists.
689:, etc. As how aces got mixed up with "highly decorated",
669:
I'd like to see some evidence for your last assertion -
690:
670:
206:
198:
109:
105:
101:
173:
434:. There are multiple reasons to delete this article.
408:
Thanks for not addressing my point in the slightest.
313:
list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions
378:Specific to this discussion, my contention is that
187:
390:, similar to comparative lists that appear on the
347:, as part of his evidence for deleting this list.
337:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Erich Handke
201:, certain recipients were deemed non notable and
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
786:). No further edits should be made to this page.
226:List of German World War II ground attack aces
752:list of Aviation-related deletion discussions
253:list of Military-related deletion discussions
8:
750:Note: This debate has been included in the
515:Note: This debate has been included in the
311:Note: This debate has been included in the
293:list of History-related deletion discussions
291:Note: This debate has been included in the
273:list of Germany-related deletion discussions
271:Note: This debate has been included in the
251:Note: This debate has been included in the
199:Redirect proposal for Knight's Cross winners
749:
517:list of Lists-related deletion discussions
514:
310:
290:
270:
250:
392:Template:Footer Knight's Cross recipients
459:As to your other, substantive points:
218:
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
428:List of German World War II jet aces
24:
462:Use of the word "ace" is not POV.
230:"Panzer ace" in popular culture
205:has been modified accordingly:
1:
224:Created under the POV title
803:
648:22:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
631:16:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
614:15:44, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
571:10:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
549:04:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
529:01:28, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
498:20:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
444:19:38, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
418:19:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
404:18:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
357:18:48, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
325:18:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
305:18:42, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
285:18:41, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
265:18:41, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
245:18:40, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
671:this book Coffman removed
775:Please do not modify it.
32:Please do not modify it.
764:04:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
743:01:56, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
721:15:51, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
703:14:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
665:00:43, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
589:13:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
62:00:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
691:the nominator did that
559:AfD is not for cleanup
709:Hubertus Hitschhold
380:Radar operator aces
482:WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP
432:AfD: Submarine ace
384:Ground attack aces
766:
531:
327:
307:
287:
267:
794:
777:
346:
343:, and here that
342:
192:
191:
177:
129:
117:
99:
34:
802:
801:
797:
796:
795:
793:
792:
791:
790:
784:deletion review
773:
134:
125:
90:
74:
71:
48:The result was
41:deletion review
30:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
800:
798:
789:
788:
768:
767:
746:
745:
727:
726:
725:
724:
723:
650:
633:
616:
596:
595:
594:
593:
592:
591:
574:
573:
552:
551:
533:
532:
511:
510:
509:
508:
507:
506:
505:
504:
503:
502:
501:
500:
485:
474:
465:On subject of
463:
457:
373:
372:
371:
370:
360:
359:
329:
328:
308:
288:
268:
195:
194:
131:
70:
65:
46:
45:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
799:
787:
785:
781:
776:
770:
769:
765:
761:
757:
753:
748:
747:
744:
740:
736:
731:
728:
722:
718:
714:
710:
706:
705:
704:
700:
696:
692:
688:
684:
680:
676:
672:
668:
667:
666:
662:
658:
654:
651:
649:
645:
641:
637:
634:
632:
628:
624:
623:Peterkingiron
620:
617:
615:
611:
607:
606:
601:
598:
597:
590:
586:
582:
578:
577:
576:
575:
572:
568:
564:
560:
556:
555:
554:
553:
550:
546:
542:
538:
535:
534:
530:
526:
522:
518:
513:
512:
499:
495:
491:
486:
483:
479:
475:
472:
471:WP:OTHERSTUFF
468:
467:submarine ace
464:
461:
460:
458:
455:
451:
447:
446:
445:
441:
437:
433:
429:
425:
421:
420:
419:
415:
411:
407:
406:
405:
401:
397:
393:
389:
385:
381:
377:
376:
375:
374:
368:
364:
363:
362:
361:
358:
354:
350:
338:
334:
331:
330:
326:
322:
318:
314:
309:
306:
302:
298:
294:
289:
286:
282:
278:
274:
269:
266:
262:
258:
254:
249:
248:
247:
246:
242:
238:
233:
231:
227:
222:
220:
216:
210:
208:
204:
200:
190:
186:
183:
180:
176:
172:
168:
165:
162:
159:
156:
153:
150:
147:
144:
140:
137:
136:Find sources:
132:
128:
124:
121:
115:
111:
107:
103:
98:
94:
89:
85:
81:
77:
73:
72:
69:
66:
64:
63:
59:
55:
51:
44:
42:
38:
33:
27:
26:
19:
774:
771:
729:
713:Clarityfiend
657:Clarityfiend
652:
635:
618:
603:
599:
536:
453:
449:
388:WP:LISTCRUFT
332:
234:
223:
211:
196:
184:
178:
170:
163:
157:
151:
145:
135:
122:
49:
47:
31:
28:
636:Weak Delete
537:Weak Delete
521:K.e.coffman
450:prima facie
436:K.e.coffman
424:flying aces
396:K.e.coffman
317:K.e.coffman
297:K.e.coffman
277:K.e.coffman
257:K.e.coffman
237:K.e.coffman
161:free images
478:WP:SOFIXIT
426:, such as
367:flying ace
203:WP:SOLDIER
780:talk page
756:• Gene93k
695:Parsecboy
563:Parsecboy
490:Parsecboy
410:Parsecboy
349:Parsecboy
37:talk page
782:or in a
120:View log
39:or in a
735:Assayer
730:Comment
600:Delete.
581:Icewhiz
541:Icewhiz
339:, that
333:Comment
167:WP refs
155:scholar
93:protect
88:history
653:Delete
640:Ajf773
619:DElete
484:, etc.
139:Google
97:delete
54:Kurykh
50:delete
610:talk
182:JSTOR
143:books
127:Stats
114:views
106:watch
102:links
16:<
760:talk
739:talk
717:talk
699:talk
661:talk
644:talk
627:talk
585:talk
567:talk
545:talk
525:talk
494:talk
454:this
440:talk
414:talk
400:talk
382:and
353:talk
321:talk
301:talk
281:talk
261:talk
241:talk
215:link
207:diff
175:FENS
149:news
110:logs
84:talk
80:edit
58:talk
605:DGG
221:.
189:TWL
118:– (
52:.
762:)
754:.
741:)
719:)
701:)
693:.
685:,
681:,
677:,
663:)
646:)
629:)
612:)
587:)
569:)
561:.
547:)
527:)
519:.
496:)
480:,
469::
442:)
416:)
402:)
355:)
323:)
315:.
303:)
295:.
283:)
275:.
263:)
255:.
243:)
169:)
112:|
108:|
104:|
100:|
95:|
91:|
86:|
82:|
60:)
758:(
737:(
715:(
697:(
687:4
683:3
679:2
675:1
659:(
642:(
625:(
608:(
583:(
565:(
543:(
523:(
492:(
473:.
438:(
412:(
398:(
351:(
319:(
299:(
279:(
259:(
239:(
193:)
185:·
179:·
171:·
164:·
158:·
152:·
146:·
141:(
133:(
130:)
123:·
116:)
78:(
56:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.