369:. This has been proposed for deletion just because it hasn't yet gained a long history. So basically you're saying that for a derby to be significant, it has to be 50 years old? Then, I guess you need to delete A-League rivalries as well. Moreover, the amount of media attention to these derbies is significant, as I've seen for it to still remain a page. If you still can't see why Melbourne or Sydney gets 20,000 more people in through the gates during Derby matches, you would call it a statistical rivalry? I've never seen anyone mention it anything else except "Derbies", be it cricinfo, smh, skysports or any other source you may wan't to refer to.
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heads present here. The main aim behind creating these teams were the Derby matches, and there's hardly any doubt that interest in these matches is increasing day by day (not only in
Australia, but in parts of Asia as well as UK). I'm here to make Knowledge (XXG) more informative, with Cricket at the core.
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No one predicts stadium attendances on an incremental fashion like that by simply adding differences. If that were true they wouldn't have moved to
Spotless stadium and then they'll get 40000 in 06 and 45000 in 07. It is pure speculation to predict attendances in that manner as noted below it doesn't
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using your exaggeration factor this would be 152,000 attendance. The sixth highest attendance at
Spotless is irrelevant. The venue is not used regularly for any competitive sport in Sydney. The thunder are the first team to commit to all home games there , some think they even got 20,000 not 18,000
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Now you are making things totally up, 35000 plus attendance of they played at ANZ. How is that even credible when the Sixers have only achieved that I think once in the many seasons of BBL at the SCG. One day you're saying 20,000 is fantastic now you're saying it would easily be 35,000 if they had a
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Didn't they get lower attendances due to their own performance against other teams? They got much larger attendances during derby matches. Derby matches always break domestic attendances records and viewership here, including more media coverage compared to other BBL matches specially in Sydney. Last
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It should be kept keeping in mind the fact that the latest of this clash has drawn record crowd of 80,883 for a domestic cricket match in the world. Also it has been a big point of discussion throughout Sydney
Morning Herald, The Herald Sun, ABC, Daily Telegraph, ESPN Cricinfo as well as in the Kiwi
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I said 20,000 in a 20,000 seater is fine! They moved to
Spotless because other matches didn't attract good enough crowds for other matches except the Derby match (obviously due to performance reasons). As for the 35,000 argument, last year match at ANZ had attracted 31,262 (was a record at that time
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which is lower than ground capacity of 22,000. The highest BBL attendance in Sydney was about 32,000 last season. And that was not a sell out . To somehow extrapolate this and a non sell out of 18,000 to 35,000+ (an exaggeration of 91%) at a different venue is blatant misrepresentation. They didn't
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Yes, they didn't attract big crowds FOR OTHER GAMES uptil last season! Didn't I state the reason for 35,000 crowd (although statistical) just before? Would you stay at ANZ for a single match during the whole season (which attracts bigger crowds)? How does not attracting bigger attendances for other
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Moreover, the Sydney Derby had aready been up for deletion before being removed from the list. The buzz before the opening game this season (as a "Derby") had shown how much of it was "culturally" significant for Sydney. In
Cricket, when people don't attend games, but then suddenly turn up in large
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I think you missed the point. Check those news links. They are more widely discussed as a rivalry than the currently existing CSK-MI and CSK-RCB rivalries are discussed in the media. I think you guys are just overseeing the true notability factors as it is very popular in media right now and being
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I can give any amount of references to prove these matches are called nothing except the
Derbies and that's what makes them more notable than other BBL matches. I would request the administrator to see merit in my views too and rule out deletion for these pages, and just not look at the number of
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before concluding anything. Many media mentions, and they are still not notable? In-fact these matches are officially called derbies by CA. I have never seen a news report on these matches without being mentioned as derbies. It is surprising that some people still want to delete these articles,
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Yup, that one is a criteria too (would easily have been 35,000+ this year at ANZ). Regularly increasing attendances in these matches do show how the rivalry is building. Moreover, I did say before that every notable media-site mentions these matches as "Derby matches". Do see above.
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is not a reason for keeping. When you regularly get more people attend a season AFL game that doesn't translate to automatic rivalry either. They are expecting 50,000 tonight between
Adelaide and Sydney Sixers perhaps we need to create a rivalry article too based on attendance?
1338:– Could I respectfully suggest the two of you cease this specific line of argument about crowd numbers, or take it to a different forum? It's clear from the discussion to date that there's no chance you'll be agreeing on the matter; and, it is irrelevant to this AfD since the
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Exaggeration factor? :o What is that? Haha, 152,000? I was rounding that up in 10,000 - so that makes 18,287 crowd a 20,000 (just like I said 80,000 for MCG crowd). Did I say 81,000 for a 80,883 MCG crowd? Views which point something different to your ideas become irrelevant?
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I dont think he is CANVASSing here, because I was the person who mentioned on the talk page of cricket a month or two ago whether these two new articles can be recreated or not given the fact that it is widely discussed in the media nowadays. I Karyasuman didnt ask for a
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Yes looking at the
Melbourne and Sydney search , most of the results are for soccer not cricket. There's even one article calling Sydney fc vs central coast mariners a NSW derby and reference to horse racing derbies. How meaningless is the Derby term becoming.
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As much for approximations, I, infact the whole sporting fraternity says 80,000 in a 100,000 capacity stadium is great. In case you didn't know, it was the sixth largest attendance EVER at the
Spotless, watched by more than 1.5 million people in Australia.
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Given Itz Arka's prior involvement in a 'should it exist?' discussion about this page he has a right to be notified. But you need to be more careful with the way you invite people to AfDs, because "I need a bit of help" sounds like canvassing.
202:. This is a statistical rivalry only. Neither the article nor any sources give any explanation for how this is a culturally significant rivalry, and these seem to be been written on the false basis that a local derby is automatically notable.
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go for Cricket, that means more people are seeing pages related to Cricket's derby rather than football. Maybe you need to talk to newspapers, magazines, cricket fans and Cricket Australia (or even horse racing fans in that case!) if you feel
916:. None of them describe the rivalries in anything other than a straightforward and routine statistical way, and many of them simply mention the derbies by name without describing them at all. None of this is adequate to demonstrate meeting
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states that notability is based on what is stated about the rivalry in references, not based on any Wikipedians' interpretation of what raw crowd numbers or audience numbers or other real-world statistical measure counts as notable.
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I have something to suggest. As these derbies are popular but most people here are strongly going against these articles, then if we have to delete these articles in the end of the discussion, why not to make a sub-column under the
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options for the tables. Also we can add the Adelaide-Sixers rivalry as someone suggested up here in the discussion. If we really are to delete these articles, then why to delete the facts and info? Although I am for the motion of
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Using your argument we should create an Adelaide Sydney Sixers rivalry article. To argue 20,000 attendance gives a free pass to notability is weak. State of Origin which is a 30 year rivalry gets minimum 70000 attendance
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Creating same city teams might have been CA's strategy. That might've been A-League's strategy too! Maybe both follow the same strategy. Occupying ANZ just for a single Derby match did actually seem funny, however.
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them but if we finally have to delete it, then let's mention them briefly in the main article of BBL. So if in future these derbies become some serious rivalries, then we can make a separate article (if required).
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They moved to the Spotless because they didn't get large attendances in OTHER matches (NOT involving the DERBY teams), as I had already said before. I won't restate my comments going on like a round-robin.
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The Melbourne Stars — Eddie McGuire’s burgeoning club — drove a dagger through cross-town rival Melbourne Renegades’ season and drove the sporting landscape green with envy of the booming Big Bash League
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is well mentioned and discussed in the media too. And after all these, I don't know how it doesn't match any notability criteria on Knowledge (XXG) according to pessimists and exclusionists! Just google
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demonstrate notability except that you try to invent statistics to exaggerate attendance. Next thing you'll round up an attendance of 15,000 to 20,000. This AfD is clearly heading to delete as should be
1684:: It is interesting that the derby with the record crowd has come in the middle of this discussion. But coverage about the crowd seems to focus on the BBL as a whole rather than the derby "rivalry".
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The loser of Saturday night’s MCG derby between the Gades and Melbourne Stars will fall to 1-3 and Finch believes at least five wins from eight games will be needed to reach this summer’s semi-finals
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20,000 in a 20,000 capacity stadium is weak? Around 1 million watching it in metros is weak? Opening matches in BBL hardly get that, considering BBL only gets stronger crowd post-Christmas.--
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See the newspaper clippings! Are newspapers personal? These are photos from the newspapers. :O And in-fact, see the excitement here in Melbourne for the derby. I would ask you to come down.
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Maybe because derby matches involve fans of the same city? Only a very small number of fans would fly interstate for a match. So decreasing the stadium size increases the notable rivalry?
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Nobody in this AfD has ever tried to argue that the game is not a derby, nor that the names Melbourne Derby and Sydney Derby are not in use. The point is that a rivalry does not become
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50,000 today at Adelaide Oval is significant because of its establishment as a New-Year eve match, not because of the rivalry between Adelaide Strikers and Sydney Sixers. --
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Thank god, at-least your mind could get the logic behind. Perhaps you could follow BBL more closely, then 35,000 would have hardly looked like an exaggeration. -_-
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The loss sets up a critical MCG derby on Saturday night with the Stars and Renegades entering precariously placed at 1-2 and both still chasing a win in Melbourne.
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article within a column called rivalries briefly mentioning about these two slowly developing rivalries and giving the list of the matches between them with the
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One of cricket's most astute judges, Stephen Fleming, predicts the Melbourne Big Bash League derby will "send absolute shockwaves through the cricketing world"
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You said 35,000 that's an exaggerated claim. If the thunder could get 35,000 most games based on your erroneous exaggerations they would not have moved right
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vote rather asked me to involve in this discussion. Anyone can ask anyone to involve in a discussion unless he or she is exclusively asking for a
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I thought the 20,000 attendance (in a city of 4.8 million with much larger Stadium literally next door ) was your criterion for notability.
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Excluding World Cup, this 70k+ crowd is higher than past 23 ODIs/T20Is for Aus at @MCG. Threatening 84,041, T20I vs India in Feb 2008
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before the SCG Derby). The season before that, they had 25,000. Even before that season, 20,000 people had attended the Derby match.
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In another Optus Sport exclusive, Stars and Renegades players describe how much their fiercely-contested derby already means to them
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from previous seasons to a much smaller ground due to low attendances. Your argument about 20,000 in a smaller Stadium is flawed.
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and see that 90% of the results in Google news will show the rivalries of Renegades-Stars, not Victory-City (in A-League I mean).
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This summer's T20 Big Bash League (BBL) tournament is heating up, and it's only going to get hotter this Saturday night at the MCG
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when 2 AFL teams from Melbourne play each other they always get higher attendance, that doesn't equate to notable rivalry.
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Anyone would agree if they have some common sense, and some mathematical skills. Just wait to see this year's crowd at the
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1512:– you are mistaking the newsworthiness of what is currently a once-off large crowd with notability of an entire rivalry.
941:- Another post on how the coverage for the derbies is increasing day by day. Here's a preview everyone would like to see:
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Sydney derby opening to the BBL will have the added sub-plot of both sides earning money for charity with every six hit
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And a mention on television and newspapers as "Melbourne Derby" too? BBL gets that. How many sources do you want? --
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You said the first Sydney match of 20,000 in 20,000 stadium was great. It was in fact 18,000 in a 22,000 stadium .
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Young fans at the Sydney derby, Sydney Sixers v Sydney Thunder, Big Bash League 2014-15, Sydney, January 22, 2015
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Also, let it be known that Itz Arka was brought to this AfD by an explicit "request for help" from Karyasuman
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No using your logic. Attendance greater than 20,000 = notable rivalry. Sydney Thunder moved from the 80,000
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numbers regularly for a match, that does tell something. Can't tell about the AFL in the same way, though.
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Is that a problem? I invited him because he was the one who brought this article into discussion. You can
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specially after Sydney Derby was earlier proposed for deletion, but was later removed from the list.
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You've still just plucked 35,000 out of thin air. The first "derby" was not a sell out it had
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Lots of derby and Stars coverage in the papers today! Grab your copy on the way into the @MCG!
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Just an update, 80,000+ at the MCG now, 60,000 more than previous BBL game at the venue.
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but i think both should be kept it is a big event on the Australian sporting calendar
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Big Bash derby between Sydney Thunder and Sydney Sixers could break attendance figures
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a rivalry that has only existed since 2012. The competition exists for a month a year
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I pointed out 35,000 like this (as said above, it was a statistical calculation) -
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Sydney derby helps Big Bash to best season opening yet helping Ten win the night
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Big Bash League: Melbourne derby on track to set domestic Twenty20 crowd record
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The Melbourne BBL derby is on January 2 but already it's a topic of interest
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in their article. So what more proofs do we need to conclude that IT IS a
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Can you understand now? How many times do I need to say the same point.
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Kevin Pietersen to return for Melbourne BBL derby after daughter's birth
912:– I've reviewed about half of that list of references, and they're all
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a primary source twitter account is not considered a reliable source.
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let's just jack up estimated attendances by 75% to suit my argument.
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Tip of the week: Renegades to win the Melbourne Derby, Saturday night
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I am also nominating the following related page for the same reason:
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Bowlers, not big-name batsmen, set to be crucial in Melbourne derby
1105:. do you agree with the flawed estimation of 35,000+ attendance.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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year too, they got the highest attendances for Derby matches.
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CA CEO sees an opening for BBL derby matches on Xmas Day
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That means you haven't read those articles properly.
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Russell stars as Thunder beat Sixers in Sydney derby
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1370:The term 'derby' mentioned in the Kiwi media too
1458:List of Big Bash League records and statistics
300:list of Australia-related deletion discussions
1276:Predicted a 35,000+ at ANZ in BBL|05 (+ 5000)
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846:THE VERONICAS TO ROCK THE DERBY
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1125:Sydney Derby
1103:WP:JUSTAVOTE
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1044:Doctorhawkes
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1542:see it here
1089:(User talk)
1057:Delete both
1040:Delete both
710:as well as
467:ANZ Stadium
354:Delete both
196:WP:NRIVALRY
158:free images
1562:WP:CANVASS
1546:Karyasuman
1400:WP:NOTABLE
1319:Karyasuman
1284:Karyasuman
1242:Karyasuman
1210:Karyasuman
1173:Karyasuman
1159:Karyasuman
1129:Karyasuman
1078:Karyasuman
1025:Karyasuman
990:Karyasuman
956:Karyasuman
896:Karyasuman
766:Karyasuman
717:Karyasuman
663:Karyasuman
620:Karyasuman
580:Karyasuman
551:Karyasuman
523:Karyasuman
486:Karyasuman
453:Karyasuman
439:Karyasuman
406:Karyasuman
371:Karyasuman
337:Delete all
320:Delete all
283:Joseph2302
271:Delete all
1744:talk page
1473:Keep both
1450:Keep both
1074:Keep both
1061:Chris8924
367:Keep both
358:Lankiveil
275:rivalries
37:talk page
1746:or in a
322:per nom
117:View log
39:or in a
1642:keeping
1600:support
1581:Aspirex
1566:LibStar
1514:Aspirex
1510:Comment
1404:Aspirex
1358:Comment
1345:Aspirex
1336:Comment
1302:LibStar
1227:LibStar
1194:LibStar
1153:said, "
1107:LibStar
976:LibStar
939:Comment
922:Aspirex
910:Comment
739:LibStar
687:LibStar
648:LibStar
634:LibStar
602:LibStar
565:LibStar
537:LibStar
507:LibStar
471:LibStar
424:LibStar
391:LibStar
341:LibStar
304:Grahame
257:Aspirex
228:protect
223:history
164:WP refs
152:scholar
90:protect
85:history
1691:Anselm
1682:Delete
1602:vote.
1340:WP:GNG
918:WP:GNG
324:Nick-D
232:delete
200:WP:GNG
194:Fails
136:Google
94:delete
50:delete
1478:derby
1454:Merge
1396:Reply
1368:?? *
1366:derby
1022:derby
762:Derby
249:views
241:watch
237:links
179:JSTOR
140:books
124:Stats
111:views
103:watch
99:links
16:<
1712:Arka
1695:talk
1650:Arka
1637:show
1635:and
1633:hide
1607:Arka
1596:keep
1585:talk
1570:talk
1550:talk
1531:diff
1518:talk
1490:Arka
1422:Arka
1408:talk
1376:Arka
1349:talk
1323:talk
1306:talk
1288:talk
1246:talk
1231:talk
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1198:talk
1177:talk
1163:talk
1133:talk
1111:talk
1080:. —
1065:talk
1048:talk
1029:talk
994:talk
980:talk
960:talk
926:talk
900:talk
797:smh.
770:talk
743:talk
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375:talk
345:talk
328:talk
308:talk
287:talk
261:talk
245:logs
219:talk
215:edit
198:and
172:FENS
146:news
107:logs
81:talk
77:edit
1452:or
1157:".
1143:MCG
186:TWL
115:– (
1721:92
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1687:St
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75:(
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