2022:. This article has survived two deletion nominations, both as "keep". And so, are we then to conclude that a list of state winners is acceptable, but only if the pageants are associated with Miss America and not if they are associated with Miss USA? That strikes me as an untenable argument. The second problem is broader -- the community is quite accepting of lists of winners of structured competitions, even if those competitions are not at the highest level of their fields and even if the competitions are not at the national level. As just two examples, takes a look at
2030:. Sure, these are lists of teams and not individuals, but the underlying principle is clear -- a list of winners is seen by the community as having encyclopedic value. And what will be the counter-argument? Will it be that a list of winners is encyclopedic, but only if it is young men playing baseball or curling, and not if it is young women competing at pageants? If that is indeed the counter-argument, I'll be very interested in learning what objective criteria causes it to be true.
1947:. For one thing, two of the pageants in the system (Ohio and Rhode Island) survived their deletion nominations (both as "keep") only about two years ago. For another, having a list of winners serves an encyclopedic purpose, but trying to merge all 51 lists into the parent article is not a practical approach. Having separate by-state articles is an appropriate approach under
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and that we speedy delete pages on much more notable businesses all the time as the standards for which businesses get pages continue to push higher in response to the unrelenting spam. Further, since each of these pages represents a business, some coverage about the ownership, history, relationship
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You said "I'm nominating this and all the related state articles." But only 8 are listed with "etc. etc." on the end. Not only that, but only those 8 appear to have deletion discussion tags on the articles themselves. Surely we don't delete 40+ other articles without tagging them so that watchers
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One thing that is the same is the pagaent fans using personal insults and attacks against nominators. Another similarity is the unjustified claims that these are notable inspite of the lack of evidence. One thing that changed is a keep voter that pushed the Rhode Island page over the edge has been
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You seem to be ignoring the fact that just because you haven't seen them in the press that actually counts for stuff all. These pageants have received a significant amount of press since 1983 (because of course we shouldn't just be talking about current levels of notability but the fact that they
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Possibly I am missing something obvious but I do not see how NEXIST bears on my arguements. BRANCH and CHAIN are not really arguements about lack of sources. They are about the kind of sources and the scope/reach of coverage and the applicability of spinning out articles on essentially identical
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to improve quality and do what I can to report disruptive accounts whereever possible. Almost never do I see the IDONTLIKE it squad like yourself treating articles on their merits. I agree there are a lot of users interested in this topic who provide little of value or who don't understand the
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What we really need is a centralised discussion on the question of winner lists. Some set of criteria that can be applied to any system of structured competition, whether it be sports, pageants, the arts or academic. Until then, we have community consensus that winner lists are fine, even for
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was cancelled in 1993 and the only way I found out it was restarted in 2008 was because I found it on
Knowledge. Pageants are really a nothingburger in Canada now and going downhill in popularity in the States quickly. In the US pageants just are not news, except for routine "local girl gets an
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each pageant & their winners have received coverage extending over three decades) and you're arguement is IDONTLIKEIT in a nutshell. I can't be bothered continuing to argue with you though because there's no chance of changing your mind and actually getting you to consider WP:GNG. ---
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would be a good reason for having the separate articles. But perhaps the discussion can be expedited by asking whether the real question is whether
Knowledge has any place at all for these lists of winners. And for those who think not, I see two problems that need to be
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Please don't lump other editors together :) I consume tons of news online, in print, radio and TV and it's been at least 10 years since I've seen a pageant mentioned (excluding searches to find ANY memtion of specific pageants while assessing articles. Closest to home,
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all have received significant coverage and this nomination is a sneaky attempt to hide the fact that many have passed AFD in the last couple of years. I suggest the nominator split these nominations and do it properly. Not liking pageants isn't a reason to be lazy.
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topic banned from all deletion discussion. This nom is also differennt because it covers a whole class of pages at once - where individual page noms are met with arguments that other similar pages exist. Another change is I've personally never seen
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clearly comes out when discussing pageant-related deletions. Clearly no effort has been made to research any of these pageants - a quick check of
Newspapers.com shows plenty of references to the various state pageants in reliable sources. ---
1729:. These have no independent notability from the parent pageant. They are state level feeder pageants that can be addressed in the main article if there is something particularly noteworthy about a particular one. Guidance can be drawn from
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award" posts and slim press release reprints, when the promotors manage to send stuff out on a slow news day. I get following these events is a hobby for some people, but that does not make preliminary rounds independantly notable.
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of having won/participated in a non-notable event, run by a non-notable franchise of a notable organization is not notable. It is not possible to bootstrap a non-notable event by making it a home for a list of non-notable people.
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does not require notability for each entry in a list so long as it is intended to be a complete listing of the eligible people. I also note that the existence of the list would not be an issue if all 51 lists were merged into
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tells differently. You put a lot of reasoning for deletion on sources or the need for additional sources. But as a part of Miss Teen USA a notable pageant the state winners and state pageants are notable.
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topics that differ only by region. Also, the winners of state pageants are only significant in that they become contestants in the national one. Could you please expain a bit more and help me understand?
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If "IDONTLIKEIT" is used to discount considered votes by editors who have researched and voted on numerous pageant pages for years, WP:ILIKEIT should discount the opinions of an editor that looks like a
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1270:), and many of these have received coverage in news sources, but much of the coverage is local and regional in nature. Redirecting with a potential for selective merging is functional as per
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As the state pageants are notable in their own right, even if the individual winners may not be. Also, even in absence of that, these should pass a test to survive as stand-alone lists per
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to the parent/franchise holder etc would be in order and if not available, is an excellent sign the business is not notable because no one is discussing the business in very much depth.
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some of these entries have quite a number of online sources talking about them, I don't think that these should all be handled by a single nomination. Also look at the prior
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1519:. Also, this is just one stage of the Miss Teen competition and has no independent notability outside of that context, if it had any notability at all.--
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does not get a page. These are just franchises and branches of the parent business. Further to take this line of thought to it's logical conclusion
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of the theme. Localized versions add no additional encyclopedic value. Any differences are minimal and can be discussed in the main article.--
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1366:(PS if this gets kept, it's laughable that you guys are voting to delete these articles). I'm also one of the strongest advocates for
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exist to support notability. In this case, there is no reason why the article does not provide adequate references if such existed.--
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1435:. Although the individual state-level pageants are not independently notable, this seems to me to be a textbook application of
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the feeder event to the feeder event is also notable because the notable event is notable. Sorry but the logic does not work.
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Well, each of the articles covers extensively the state pageants history and winners. Per your rationale about sources
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for the topic. Dealing with all 51 preliminary round pages is the best most efficient fairest way to deal with this.
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I'm nominating this and all the related state articles. It's overcoverage of a minor derivative pageant.
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none of those voting delete have offered anything to show how these articles are in anyway different to
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The context is fully provided in an article on the main competition. The localized versions are just
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Thanks for commenting. I suppose we could play a game of "dueling guidelines", with me noting that
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First, a similar set of articles already exists for the Miss
America version of teen pageants --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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both of which were closed as keep within the last couple of years. Allow me to requote
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explicitly addresses the concern about the listed persons not being notable, stating
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contest that less and less people care about or fewer and fewer media cover anymore.
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1481:- I am not sure what value a redirect would provide, but that is also an option.--
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discussed as applicable for these business listings. I'd also say that they fail
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or redirect articles which aren't up to notability standards - sometimes even
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The difference is that I'm able to be fair and have often voted to
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policies or guidelines but please don't lump us all together. ---
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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articles; if they are non-notable, then it becomes the case of
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there is nothing indepdently notable about these competitions.
1266:. I added the Find sources templates to the nomination above (
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list of United States of
America-related deletion discussions
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Miss Rhode Island Teen USA
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comments explaining why several of these are notable. --
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The issue I see with that is that the winners are not
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is relevant towards keeping this article and the rest.
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and the state organizations should not have pages per
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list of Beauty pageants-related deletion discussions
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1650:If this closes as delete, I will prod the others.
2024:Intermediate League World Series (Central Region)
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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1237:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1220:Note: This discussion has been included in the
1203:Note: This discussion has been included in the
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2113:-- the two "Keep" examples are from 2015 &
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2020:Miss America's Outstanding Teen state pageants
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1696:You are misinterpreting the
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1546:Donald Trung
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50:no consensus
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28:
2119:K.e.coffman
1466:K.e.coffman
1388:Miss Canada
1114:free images
997:free images
880:free images
763:free images
646:free images
529:free images
412:free images
295:free images
164:free images
2090:iterations
2056:Delete all
2016:addressed.
2013:WP:SPINOUT
1949:WP:SPINOUT
1630:Closeapple
1617:for Closer
1596:WP:SPINOUT
1568:WP:ROUTINE
1458:WP:SPINOUT
1454:Delete all
1437:WP:SPINOUT
58:Sandstein
2169:talk page
1922:Legacypac
1910:WP:BRANCH
1888:WP:NEXIST
1883:WP:NEXIST
1868:Legacypac
1855:WP:BRANCH
1830:Arxiloxos
1768:WP:NEXIST
1731:WP:BRANCH
1698:WP:NEXIST
1676:WP:NEXIST
1575:Legacypac
1572:WP:BRANCH
1393:Legacypac
1342:Legacypac
1274:as well.
1171:Legacypac
1151:etc. etc.
37:talk page
2171:or in a
1998:Jbhunley
1975:WP:NLIST
1945:Keep all
1863:WP:NCORP
1859:WP:CHAIN
1743:WP:CHAIN
1613:Question
1592:Keep all
1554:Articles
1272:WP:ATD-M
1264:WP:ATD-R
1256:Redirect
1167:Miss USA
1159:Redirect
123:View log
39:or in a
2111:Comment
1971:notable
1908:No per
1816:Comment
1615:(maybe
1294:. ---
1262:as per
1258:all to
1120:WP refs
1108:scholar
1055:protect
1050:history
1003:WP refs
991:scholar
938:protect
933:history
886:WP refs
874:scholar
821:protect
816:history
769:WP refs
757:scholar
704:protect
699:history
652:WP refs
640:scholar
587:protect
582:history
535:WP refs
523:scholar
470:protect
465:history
418:WP refs
406:scholar
353:protect
348:history
301:WP refs
289:scholar
236:protect
231:history
170:WP refs
158:scholar
96:protect
91:history
2094:Rpclod
2076:BabbaQ
2004:WP:CSC
1892:BabbaQ
1791:BabbaQ
1772:BabbaQ
1723:Delete
1706:Rpclod
1680:BabbaQ
1600:BabbaQ
1521:Rpclod
1501:BabbaQ
1483:Rpclod
1479:Delete
1360:delete
1338:WP:SPA
1308:Also,
1092:Google
1059:delete
975:Google
942:delete
858:Google
825:delete
741:Google
708:delete
624:Google
591:delete
507:Google
474:delete
390:Google
357:delete
273:Google
240:delete
142:Google
100:delete
1658:talk
1135:JSTOR
1096:books
1076:views
1068:watch
1064:links
1018:JSTOR
979:books
959:views
951:watch
947:links
901:JSTOR
862:books
842:views
834:watch
830:links
784:JSTOR
745:books
725:views
717:watch
713:links
667:JSTOR
628:books
608:views
600:watch
596:links
550:JSTOR
511:books
491:views
483:watch
479:links
433:JSTOR
394:books
374:views
366:watch
362:links
316:JSTOR
277:books
257:views
249:watch
245:links
208:talk
185:JSTOR
146:books
130:Stats
117:views
109:watch
105:links
16:<
2132:Keep
2123:talk
2098:talk
2080:talk
2074:How?
2064:talk
2040:talk
2026:and
1957:talk
1926:talk
1896:talk
1872:talk
1857:and
1840:talk
1822:and
1776:talk
1710:talk
1684:talk
1634:talk
1604:talk
1579:talk
1550:Talk
1542:Keep
1538:Keep
1525:talk
1505:talk
1487:talk
1470:talk
1445:talk
1441:TJRC
1433:Keep
1412:talk
1397:talk
1377:talk
1356:prod
1346:talk
1319:talk
1300:talk
1286:Keep
1268:diff
1175:talk
1128:FENS
1102:news
1072:logs
1046:talk
1042:edit
1011:FENS
985:news
955:logs
929:talk
925:edit
894:FENS
868:news
838:logs
812:talk
808:edit
777:FENS
751:news
721:logs
695:talk
691:edit
660:FENS
634:news
604:logs
578:talk
574:edit
543:FENS
517:news
487:logs
461:talk
457:edit
426:FENS
400:news
370:logs
344:talk
340:edit
309:FENS
283:news
253:logs
227:talk
223:edit
178:FENS
152:news
113:logs
87:talk
83:edit
1985:Jbh
1951:.
1799:Jbh
1752:Jbh
1653:DGG
1623:DGG
1619:):
1552:) (
1142:TWL
1025:TWL
908:TWL
791:TWL
674:TWL
557:TWL
440:TWL
323:TWL
203:DGG
192:TWL
121:– (
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