770:, I was very surprised there wasn't already an article about her, I recognise her face very well, though that is perhaps because I'm too often awake at 5am watching see it saw it reruns (and that program apparently doesnt have a page either, so clearly thats not a notability provider). The people who are voting delete do have policy on side. However, if it is deleted, it will definitely, as someone said, be recreated within hours. Which would mean that if it were to be deleted it would need to be salted, which I disagree with as an option at this juncture because more developments might change the situation or blah blah and we shouldnt have to, in that case, rely on busy admins to care, because they don't always. Plus, there's nothing wrong with giving it a couple of days til the attention dies down and the deletion can be cleaner. So
1644:(Anon IP) I never said she was. You're completely missing the point I was making. There are plenty of articles about non-notable people on Knowledge (XXG), many of whom are less notable than Natasha Collins is or was (depending on how you look at it). My reference to the above mentioned porn stars (and to the other actors for that matter) was to make my point. These were just articles I happened to land on in the course of my Wikitravels this (or rther yesterday now) afternoon, and on a different day I may have generated a completely different list of people.
1253:"Knowledge (XXG) considers the historical notability of persons and events, while keeping in mind the harm our work might cause. Someone or something that has been in the news for a brief period is not necessarily a suitable subject for an article in their own right. While Knowledge (XXG) strives to be comprehensive, the policies on biographies of living persons and neutral point of view should lead us to contextualize events appropriately, which may preclude a biography about someone who is not an encyclopedic subject, despite a brief appearance in the news."
498:- on the basis that she just about reaches notability (you could easily argue it the other way), but more importantly that we don't know yet about the circumstances or causes of her death, and hence redirecting to Speight sets a legally conclusive precedent which is highly liebelous for the Wiki foundation. If we delete now, it will only get recreated by a Anon. I'd like to see this one re-debated in at least two weeks if not four, when further details will be confirmed by reliable Media and Police sources. Rgds, -
1751:. We let the agreed policies make the decision. In this case I feel that the policies are being too loosely interpreted. Ask yourself, if Collins had not died this week, and she had an article, and it was nominated for deletion, would you all be so vociferously defending it? Would you even care? Probably not, and since everyone dies, just dying does not mean you pass any notability guidelines, because then everyone would be eligible for an article, provided they had died. Footnote in
1552:'s daughter (Cherie being a wee bit more famous than Nathalie). But she still has an article, despite having only appeared in a handful of productions. Admittedly, she's alive and well and in her early 20s, so perhaps this is a different case, and she will hopefully have a long and prosperous career ahead of her. It's still a short article though, so if we're going to apply strict rules to these things, shouldn't we be deleting her until she's more notable? And Nathalie's brother,
1184:, is it because it is another "celebrity". Other than that, a drugs death involving a children's TV presenter is going to create more media attention that a porn actor's death would, why, if you are a parent, would you feel scandalised that a drugs death involves a children's TV presenter. Not to mention that all publicity only concerns her death and nothing before it.
716:"I believe that it's a depressing prospect that sensation lovers are leading an encyclopedia by the nose. Allowing the media to determine what is and isn't notable is a bad joke.... I bet we wouldn't be having this arguement if it was an ugly middle aged man who had been murdered. I think that WP needs to establish a specific guideline - I've no idea how to go about it."
1180:, I do question on those with a keep nomination, are you nominating keep because of the recent drugs death prompted you to google her name and you found this and because it is in a AfD nomination, you decided to vote keep for the sake of it. Ask yourself this, have you heard of her before her death, if no, then ask yourself why are you voting
597:- had not been notable before her death, only reason of notability is because her death involves a children's TV presenter and his subsequent arrest, which will explain why this is seen to be as scandalous. The bottom line to this is I want to point out that this site is not IMDB (she has her own profile, so why not contribute there instead).
1442:. So notable that when she died, the story wasn't "FAMOUS PERSON DIES", it was "KIDS' TV PRESENTER ARRESTED OVER DEATH OF GIRLFRIEND WHO WE THINK WAS A PRESENTER OR AN ACTRESS OR SOMETHING, WE'VE NEVER ACTUALLY HEARD OF HER BUT WE GOOGLED HER AND FOUND A SMALL CV THAT LISTS NON-STARRING CREDITS IN THREE TV SHOWS NOBODY REMEMBERS". Wow,
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news story is not finished. We don't know the cause of death and whether there will be any criminal charges resulting from it (to anyone). It would be churlish and disrespectful to try and second guess these outcomes and on this premise we should not make a rash decision to delete the article IMHO.
557:
So they are. My apologies for that. I actually considered creating this article myself when the story first broke, but couldn't find much about her at that stage, so decided I wouldn't. My comments really relate to that. I think it should be kept though - for the time being at least and until further
2240:
Read a copy of yesterday's Daily
Express last night. The story is on page five, and is largely about Speight, and the details of the death and police investigation. Of Collins, it says she was a "promising actress". Hmmm. Promising actress. That says to me that she may have been more notable had she
1068:
Unlike
Natasha Collins. Actually, I'd be quite happy to see Knowledge (XXG) cover less notable people (I thought of requesting an article on Emma Fitch, for example - Fitch was the woman who did the Kelly Homes tattoo hoax, and from the publicity for that alone, is probably more notable than Natasha
992:
Objection to keeping the article seems to be that Ms
Collins was only a minor celebrity in life and that she is only notable as a consequence of her unusual death. I think (plainly speaking without meaning to sound callous) that the combination of "minor celebrity" + "unusual death" = notable. The
2151:
Though you actually make some quite interesting points, they're not particularly relevant here. All we're discussing here is the article on
Natasha Collins, and whether it should be deleted or not, not the basic policies of Knowledge (XXG). In this discussion, whether you agree with the policies or
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The irony is that including articles (or to put it another way, preserving information) on people like
Natasha Collins, who aren't actually all that famous, or are famous for a week, would actually add real value to the Knowledge (XXG) project. If only Knowledge (XXG) collectively was serious about
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She never worked as a presenter on any national channel. I mean, good grief, if people are determined to keep the article, then so be it, but between poorly sourced allegations of drug abuse and blatantly untrue assertions of her working as a BBC presenter, I do have to wonder at how well informed
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As an anon IP I am of course worthless scum (at least, that's the impression I get from this discussion) but I would nevertheless suggest that the news coverage (re-)establishes notability for
Speight, not Collins. The interest in Collins is entirely because she died in Speight's appartment and (I
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She wasn't a BBC presenter (the closest she got was being an actress on a children's puzzle programme nine years ago) and the fact that people are discussing her as if she was, and this not even being questioned until now, suggests rather strongly to me that nobody knows who she was, she isn't
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James Dean was already famous before his death, plus he is still notable after his death, and what about Ms
Collins, she wasn't notable before her death and I am very doubtful that she will be when Easter comes considering there is nothing memorable about her career. Also this article had been
2056:
TheIslander, I would but they're much the same as the one
Popplewick has posted above; articles written only a few hours after her death. BBC News Online referred to her as a "presenter" a couple of days ago, however they often change articles without noting the amendments. In the absence of
969:. Her career lasted less than two years -- a handful of television acting roles have surfaced, that's all. She appears to have done nothing of note since her accident in 2000. Had it not been for the unfortunate circumstances of her death, no one would be requesting an article for her.
2652:
Been coming back here for days reading all the comments and pondering the concept of notability. I just don't think this is quite enough, I think someone needs to be notable beyond the resume of this woman and I have issues with one's greatest notablity being a rather unnotable
1742:
Just because other undeserving articles have not yet been deleted, doesnt mean we have to keep this one until they are; we dont have to delete articles in order of triviality. In all cases such as this, the question is not "is the subject notable?" but "does the subject pass
2129:
and... well, you get the picture. All of these people got massive publicity for a short time but try looking for info on them now and it's a pain in the neck, even with the benefit of the web. Knowledge (XXG) should be trying to fill that knowledge gap, not widening it. -
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A short biographical article about a recently deceased person, which was originally nominated for speedy deletion. I really have no opinion on this, but feel that the wider view of the community should be gauged before a decision on whether or not to delete is made
1556:
also has an article, incidentally, and that's even shorter. But these guys have notable parents, and careers worthy of a mention on the IMDB, and
Natasha Collins had a (sadly for the wrong reasons right now) notable boyfriend/fiance, and also merited an IMDB
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Other than that, nothing; but she worked as a model and an actrees in several children's tv shows. The fact that an actress in a children's tv show took drugs, to me, guarantees one inherant notability. Unusual circumstances of death is just an add-on.
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as an example. She only really rose to prominance because she was a weathergirl on TV-AM, and somebody's daughter. The article concerning her was created following her death in a motoring accident late last year. Where do we draw the line folks? Should
1543:
Unless someone's going to go through deleting all the articles about all the so-called non notable actors/actresses/television presenters, etc - living or deceased. And there are quite a few of these. One I found this afternoon is a biography of
687:- no significant coverage, as per Lucasbfr. Only became notable after death, hence the creation of the page today. Most sources that relate to her previous history are from the current news stories, therefore only notable for this event.
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it then the article deserves deletion. This shouldn't be a straw poll about whether we feel sorry for dead people; AfD debates are about the merits of articles based on the
Knowledge (XXG) guidelines, and currently the article fails them
1560:
Something that concerns me more, however, are the countless articles about porn stars who nobody's heard of (unless they happen to have an unhealthy appetite for those kinds of films). A few examples for you to consider here include
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that programme, she was an actress hired to play a supporting role in that programme. There is no evidence she ever presented a show on national television – mainly because she has never presented a show on national television.
750:
Hey, I don't regard myself as a sensation hunter. I just look for subjects to create articles about is all. Although I didn't create this one, I thought about it - as I would have done had it been a middle aged man.
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You know, that's a great policy, but I believe that that anon was making a point about the fact that notability standards are being lowered to the point that this article should be kept. A point that I agree with.
334:
She had her own individual career separate to that of Mark Speight. This entitles her to the right to her own article. It's like saying if the Queen Elizabeth died, we'd put her onto the Duke of Edinburgh's page.
948:. Whoever proposed this for deletion needs their head testing. There are some exceptional circumstances regarding her death and her breath career is worth mentioning alone. The article simply needs improvement.
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I feel she was an independent person and her death may have nothing to do with her boyfriend, she was a presenter of note and people will look her up, admittedly largely because of her untimely demise.
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That's an argument for renaming the article and refocusing the topic to "Death of Natasha Collins", not deleting it outright. Much of the content of this article would be usable for either topic.
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The story of her death has certainly received a lot of media coverage - it was one of the main stories on Sky yesterday. I'd say therefore that she was noteworthy, so the article should be kept.
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As the story only broke this morning, it is unlikely that a Google search would throw up much just now. Surely the test of her notability will be if there is an obituary in tomorrow's Times.
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notable in the Knowledge (XXG) sense and the article should therefore be deleted. But hey, it's your own stupid fault for having such restrictive rules on notability in the first place. - Q4
235:
on imdb, I get plenty of hits for each show they presented. Mmm, "Natasha Collins" bbc -death -police in google shows no significant English results. I don't see significant coverage. --
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regret to say) nothing to do with Collins' own notability. If you want an indication of how notable Collins was, look at how much coverage her road accident got at the time: none. -
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created following her death, so in this case I don't this article will ever survive and I don't think the notability requirements should be lowered as we got too many junk articles.
2488:. The purely subjective assertions of non-notability advanced by editors supporting deletion of this article fail to outweigh the presumption of notability established via the
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Who is she? A minor actress, that's it. Just because she's dead, it doesn't make her famous. Just as it's inappropriate to list dead animals, no matter how 'famous' they are.
2566:
You may have been in it for 10 seconds, but this women was co-star for a year. Plus she had a few other roles that you demonstrated. I don't see any question for deletion of
833:
if and only if we can show that her life was more notable than her death (no disrespect to her but people are murdered all the time, doesn't in itself make her notable). •
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per above. Being the girlfriend of someone notable does not transfer notability. However, it would be very useful to have a redirect pointing to the section about her in
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as co-presenter. However, this was an early story, part of the rush to get a headline out. Calmer heads have since adopted phrases such as "appeared alongside him". --
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She may have been a promising actress way back when, before the car accident she was in in 2000/2001. That promise was not fulfilled in the years after that. --
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You are not worthless scum, and we are sorry you feel you've been treated that way. Anyway, she did present corporate videos and act as See in See It, Saw It.
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Presenter on a national BBC channel with a lot of reliable sources. Many bio articles are only created when someone dies; I guess that's when the RSs pop up.
1112:
Ahem, what is wrong with creating articles following one's death? People then start noticing that person. Evebn if she wasn't famous during her life, she was
2584:
Five seconds actually. And my point is that I am just a Joe Average who happened to appear on television. So was Collins really, and so was Kate Crossley.
845:
but expand. It looks like a reasonable case can be made to say she should have had a page anyhow, so let's make the page she should have had while alive.--
2179:
Back to the subject in hand, just to make it crystal clear for the closing sysop, people keep stating that she was a national TV presenter on the BBC.
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Other articles have been created following a person's death, and I don't seem to recall all this fuss over those. I want to draw people's attention to
2550:, or someone will remind me of the fact. I once appeared in an Open University documentary for about five seconds. Perhaps I should have an article.
2667:
Everyone's welcome to their opinion, but you don't make policy. Her resume seems to meet WP:BIO as per above John254's comment and mine further up.
2320:- at least five of the anon IPs I've highlighted in the conversation above have no edits save those to this page. Just something to bear in mind...
635:
But hold off on the adding of pointless speculation until the facts are known, rather than copy & paste from BBC news just for the sake of it.
1360:
She worked as a TV presenter, which I see as notable. Beside that, there's her death, which is covered by many sources. But she did do other work.
572:
There isn't an obituary, although her death is reported on page 5. I'd still like to see this article kept though, for the reasons I stated above.
52:. She was not notable, her death was a notable fact in the life of already notable Mark Speight though. This close is obviously not a votecount...
1577:, and a whole lot more besides. Now tell me how they're famous (other than for starring in blue movies), and whether we should be keeping them.
1208:"A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject."
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1599:. Decisions like that are the exact reason we make specific notability guidelines. If they fail such tests then the articles will be deleted
163:- people known only for one event. The only references here relate to her death; there's no evidence presented of notability outside of it.
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Good point - I hadn't remembered that. That brings into question the consistency of previous Afds. I'm going to raise the whole issue on
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We don't even know that she has taken drugs. That's purely speculative until the toxicologist report comes through. Still notable? --
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not is more or less irrelevant; this is a forum to state whether you thik the article in question abides by those policies or not.
2105:. It's so tied to the "old media" idea of what an encyclopedia is, that it systematically rejects the very advantages that that an
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Thank you. That's exactly the point I was making, though I could have been a little more concise in the way I made it, I guess.
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as tv presenter. Her career, while short, existed. Had she lived longer, she may have been even more notable than she is now.
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How notable is she? So enormously notable that when she had the accident that effectively ended her career seven years ago,
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for two years. BBC One is a national channel that is run by the BBC, hence the repeated use of the phrase "BBC presenter".
1666:. Other than that, the porn stuff is off topic for this discussion, which is only intended to deal with the one article. --
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1512:(answer to Popplewick) OK, fine have it your way. I still think she took drugs, but please see the rest of my arguement.
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Not really; she appaeraed in three notable tv shows, the co-star of one. That, besides her death, seems notable to me.
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but currently the only notability she seems to have is dying. I also suggest not redirecting to the Speight article.
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is probably going too far. Especially as it seems to have been created by someone who doesn't realise that See was
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be deleted simply because her life was cut short, and she didn't get to achieve as much as she might? I think not.
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the page was only created after her death. if she were notable for her life it would have been created earlier
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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clearly establishes a presumption of the notability of this person pursuant to the criteria established in the
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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722:, it would be interesting to see how consistent the WP procedures are over all the similar instances. -- John
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2395:. He's probably a bit more notable than Natasha Collins and Kate Crossley, but even so. Where does this end?
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might be useful, but as she will probably have been forgotten in a few weeks, I guess even that's pointless.
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Ownlee famoos 4 been ded, of cours theres the paper dead secrtion of those who wan 2 b famoos 4 beng ded.
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She had her own individual career - which wasn't notable enough to get her a page before she passed on. --
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WE decide what's notable and sucks boo to you if you want to know anything WE don't deem important enough
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She had a career so that entitles her to her own article? That covers every worker in the world ...
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Brad, care to share these sources with the rest of us? We seem to be having trouble finding any
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Notable, but not famous. Until her death. Had she not died perhaps she would have been famous.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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1603:. Thus, because Natasha Collins was not a porn star (as far as we know), that is off topic.
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I wasn't shouting, I was imitating a newspaper headline. Strewth. Why do I even bother? -
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to Speight's article. She's only really notable for being some guy's dead girlfriend.
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Perhaps those saying that her career was notable could explain what she actually did.
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206:, I don't see much notability asserted here by herself, IMDb only lists 2 shows. --
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Is it right to say that she didn't "present" it when reliable sources say she did?
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In fact this is the contrary, 100% of the google hits are related to her death. --
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Done quite enough in her career to be listed, untimely death is beside the point.
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1210:. As a result of her death, she has, therefore she is. Confirmed by previous Afd
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She wasn't really that notable, so why have an article about her? A redirect to
1684:(Anon IP) Sure, but I'm probably not the only one who should be directed there.
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That seems non-controversial - a popular show in its day. However, a page for
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And really did little else apart from that. Oh, I mustn't forget, she was in
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found dead in the apartment of Joe Average, it wouldnt have made sky news...
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Collins ever was), but I don't think it's going to happen. My vote would be
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She appeared in three TV shows, and presented corporate videos to the BBC.
2183:. They also state that she took drugs, which apparently makes her notable.
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She may be dead but the story has not yet ended. Possible public interest.
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Her notability is as a BBC TV presenter, which isn't really IMDB's area. --
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being a repository of human knowledge, rather than its actual attitude of
2733:"Children's TV presenter arrested on suspicion of his fiancee's murder"
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2217:. Please see this ref, closing admin, before you delete this article:
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lived and had more roles, but at the time of her death, she was not.
816:" how was this ever considered for a speedy deletion is beyond me.
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that guideline is extremely low. Since there are no guidelines for
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she is obviously notable as she is in the papers and on the news
454:: I believe this entry meets notability requirements. Agree with
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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What has she presented (other than corporate videos, I mean)? --
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starred in only three films before his untimely death in 1955.
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I believe someone's supposed to point you towards this essay:
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permanent sources saying she was a presenter, I'll go with a
714:. That's the Knowledge (XXG) line, but as I've said before -
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Her death has received much attention in the British media.
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sources that state she was a national television presenter.
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article today. Just thought it was worth mentioning this.
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She co-presented "See It, Saw It", which was broadcast on
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per Willirennen's comments directly above. Very well put.
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to be notable if it has received significant coverage in
2703:, to reming everybody that this si not a memorial site.
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People might want to keep an eye on the article as the
109:
105:
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2109:
encyclopedia project ought to embrace. It could, and
1747:?". For us to decide whether a subject is notable is
1755:, who is not even particularly significant himself.
718:. Topically there's another similar debate going on
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undeniably notable for her life if not her death. --
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1212:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Emily Sander
712:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Emily Sander
710:, consistent with the conclusions reached here -
2762:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2416:- Seems notable both for her life and death. --
1597:the notability guidelines for adult movie stars
2185:This has yet to be proved one way or the other
1464:Err, would you mind not shouting please? See
8:
2377:. (Guess what the other one was called?) -
1548:. Who's she? I hear you ask. Well, she's
2343:I see somebody has seen fit to create a
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159:Her notability is easily deniable. See
2480:in multiple reliable sources cited in
1283:Knowledge (XXG):Village pump (policy)
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
931:per above. Needs expansion, though.
24:
2476:The extensive media coverage of
2213:, unless you want to contradict
2211:That makes your point irrelevant
2612:U wil call eNythin "noptaBLE"
2303:I think she is important enough
2272:She appeared in three TV shows
1624:almost every one gets deleted.
1595:We keep them because they pass
1903:many of these comments are. --
1031:. She was a notable person. --
1:
2123:David Martin (murder suspect)
965:to an appropriate section of
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2696:00:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2632:01:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2608:00:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2594:00:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2580:00:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
2560:23:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
2492:through objective evidence.
2490:general notability guideline
2486:general notability guideline
2452:general notability guideline
2034:, has described her role on
1984:It is when they're wrong. --
1440:it didn't even make the news
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2030:At least one news source,
1204:Knowledge (XXG):Notability
616:As per most of the above.
558:details become available.
1116:(there's a differences).
306:But her notability isn't
2755:Please do not modify it.
2061:-- she was the "See" of
1249:Knowledge (XXG):NOT#NEWS
1171:) 12:26, 5 January 2008
32:Please do not modify it.
2391:There's also a page on
2290:) 23:37, 7 January 2008
2127:Steven and Paul Cheatle
481:to Speight's article.
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2113:include articles like
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2418:Counter-revolutionary
2318:Note to closing admin
1745:notability guidelines
1178:Comment on above lot
231:Ow ok, every time I
2735:. Times. 2008-01-05
2369:jester rather than
1664:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS
253:Same as Dweller. --
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2705:Knock-Off Nigel
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201:Redirect to
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45:
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2614:—Preceding
2471:independent
2454:states that
2274:—Preceding
2181:She was not
2059:weak delete
1858:murdered by
1601:as and when
1554:Rowan Joffe
1186:Willirennen
1159:—Preceding
1096:Willirennen
973:applies. --
881:—Preceding
663:—Preceding
637:—Preceding
599:Willirennen
483:Chris (クリス)
308:established
274:'s article
2739:2008-01-05
2719:References
2393:Philip Fox
2373:jester in
2260:Popplewick
2119:Emma Fitch
2040:Popplewick
1986:Popplewick
1950:Popplewick
1905:Popplewick
1668:Popplewick
1415:Popplewick
1384:Popplewick
1257:Popplewick
1052:James Dean
1050:Remember,
975:Popplewick
2469:that are
2379:PinkEllie
2215:The Times
1840:Paul20070
1563:Elen Cole
1436:(Anon IP)
950:Tom Green
847:Nickpheas
772:weak keep
500:Trident13
496:Weak Keep
2628:contribs
2616:unsigned
2463:presumed
2331:Islander
2288:contribs
2276:unsigned
2198:Islander
2163:Islander
2032:Sky News
2017:Islander
2004:reliable
1862:Jdcooper
1757:Jdcooper
1605:Jdcooper
1479:Islander
1466:WP:CIVIL
1332:Islander
1301:Contribs
1289:Daytona2
1230:Contribs
1218:Daytona2
1214:-- John
1161:unsigned
1141:A. Carty
971:WP:BIO1E
963:Redirect
883:unsigned
776:Jdcooper
738:Contribs
726:Daytona2
665:unsigned
639:unsigned
618:Tilefish
549:lucasbfr
479:Redirect
404:Redirect
317:TheBilly
276:TheBilly
268:Redirect
238:lucasbfr
209:lucasbfr
165:TheBilly
161:WP:BIO1E
120:View log
2494:John254
2341:Comment
2256:Comment
2238:Comment
2177:Comment
2149:Comment
2098:Comment
1945:present
1923:BBC One
1618:Comment
1114:notable
1033:Paukrus
789:Comment
768:Comment
753:Brochco
748:Comment
574:Brochco
560:Brochco
534:Brochco
530:Comment
517:Brochco
456:Dweller
408:Lugnuts
219:Dweller
187:John254
147:Dweller
93:protect
88:history
2701:Delete
2684:Delete
2653:death.
2650:Delete
2125:, and
2121:, and
2117:, and
2111:should
2107:online
1821:Triwbe
1774:Delete
1557:entry.
1444:really
1319:Delete
995:Rrsmac
933:D.M.N.
835:Anakin
797:Hiding
685:Delete
595:Delete
421:Delete
372:Delete
294:Kateab
129:Egdirf
97:delete
2459:topic
1516:Yes.
1247:From
864:Paste
812:per "
463:Jza84
312:prove
114:views
106:watch
102:links
16:<
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110:logs
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2461:is
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