933:- We do need to be clear about what is meant by a western peace movement. It is well-known that the World Peace Council was funded and directed by the Soviet Union, but to that extent no-one ever regarded it as western. Two other organisations that Staar said had Soviet funding were not really western either: the Prague-based Christian Peace Conference and the pro-Soviet Esperanto Movement for World Peace, which was strong in Hungary and East Germany. All that is left is the International Institute for Peace, which I don't know anything about, but is hardly the basis for an article making such strong claims as this one.
287:, not a university, and there is no evidence that his work has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The entire thrust of this book was to emphasize how powerful, malevolent, and dangerous the USSR is. The book was published in 1991. You do the math. I read the same pages cited in the article and came upon the following statement: "A major objective under Gorbachev is to isolate the United States from its NATO allies by proposing the formation of a common European house comprising both West and East Europe, including the USSR, but in the long run excluding the United States." Again, this was published in
995:-- when it's said someone works for a "right-wing think tank" I'd expect something a bit more extreme. Hoover is a well-respected institution. Regnery is definitely conservative, but it's pretty solid. The crack-pipe Christmas tree charge was in a book written by a former FBI agent. As I remember the story, the White House Christmas tree was decorated with items donated by supporters. Most presidents have a few oddball supporters. It's not at all surprising that Clinton would have a lot of them. --
432:... The programs -- which would run all sorts of congresses, peace congresses, youth congresses, festivals, women's movements, trade union movements, campaigns against U.S. missiles in Europe, campaigns against neutron weapons, allegations that AIDS ... was invented by the CIA ... all sorts of forgeries and faked material -- targeted at politicians, the academic community, at public at large. ...
566:, where it transpires that the alleged articles cannot be identified, that Tretyakov gets the chronology wrong and that there was friendly co-operation between US and Russian atmospheric scientists on the research that led up to Nuclear Winter. Golitsyn, an internationally respected scientist, was the originator of the theory in Russia. This casts doubt on Tretyakov's claims.
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case, there are still other reliable sources. Sorry, the Hoover
Institution is a reliable academic organization, respected by many who aren't themselves crazed by leftwing ideology. We consider the New York Times a reliable source, despite its editorial POV. Time and Newsweek, and The New Yorker, too. It's pretty clear that plenty of sources exist.
463:. Despite their access to key documents, these authorities do not name any major peace organisation that was run by the Soviet Union. US intelligence sources are also cited; they mention the total sum that is supposed to have been put into western peace movements by the Soviets but they do not name a single organisation either.
776:"Major organisations" like the African Workers' University, the Berlin Conference of Catholic Christians and the Esperantist Movement for World Peace? Yes, links to such organisations were removed because the article is about western peace movements and most of the organisations on that list are not peace movements.
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into "Soviet-run peace movements" being "supervised" by the WPC, a very different thing. Staar says that the Soviet Union sent delegates to international peace conferences. This was turned into the conferences being "affiliated " with communist front organisations, when Staar never suggested any such thing. (See
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article titled "Soviet-influenced peace movements in the West" rather than "Soviet-run" would be well sourced. The urge to delete doesn't seem to have a foundation in policy. In fact, to make it perfectly clear, I'm going to be bold and move the title. It can be changed back if there's no consensus for it.
202:. For the most part, the sources are not talking about "Soviet-run peace movements in the West", the ostensible subject of the article. Instead, they discuss cases where the Soviet Union is believed to have provided funding and/or exercised undue influence in various Western peace organizations. The 1983
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So what this article is about is not Soviet influence on western peace movements, but the WPC and its affiliates. These are probably the bodies that Lunev refers to when he talks about Soviet manipulation of the peace movement, and these are the organisations mentioned by Staar. That should be put in
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The POV of several of the editors is revealed in the way they misquote their sources. Whether the misquotation is deliberate, or simply sloppy, it is impossible to say. For example, Staar says that some bodies were "closely associated" with the World Peace
Council. This, in the article, was turned
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Indeed, they seem to be unfamiliar with the history of western peace movements altogether. I had a lengthy exchange with Piotr on the question of Soviet influence on pre-war peace organisations in the UK, which he insisted he had evidence of. Despite my repeated questions, he could not name a single
260:. The article should probably be renamed, and this can be discussed on talk. As the nominator notes, the subject is "cases where the Soviet Union is believed to have provided funding and/or exercised undue influence in various Western peace organizations", and the subject is notable and referenced. --
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I suspect that there is confusion here between Soviet front organisations, like the WPC and its affiliates, and the western and non-aligned peace movements of the cold war period, which were not Soviet influenced. In the 1950s they attempted to co-operate with the World Peace
Council, but there was
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A cursory search for
Richard Felix Staar on both Google Books and Google Scholar shows nothing but his own works. There is no evidence that he is taken seriously by anyone in the academic community. If this is going to be discussed as a real phenomenon and not a conspiracy theory, then there should
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and then cast aspersions on "several of the editors". Do you mean editors in this discussion? I didn't misquote, I cut-and-paste quoted. The quotes I gave above establish that there is evidence from reliable sources stating that the
Soviets influenced some peace groups. It's pretty simple. An NPOV
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This imprecision and lack of specificity in the sources, and the notable absence of any reference to any major organisation, makes them questionable. They do not provide a good enough basis for an encyclopaedia article, especially on a topic that is bound to be tainted by disinformation and black
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and rename to something like "Soviet-funded" or "Soviet-supported". The subject of Soviet influenced organizations is certainly encyclopedic, and there are reliable sources for that. Not sure whether I'd characterize
Regnery as unreliable, but for the sake of argument, assume that it is. In that
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The fundamental problem with this article can be best expressed with an analogy. It would not be difficult to find reliable sources discussing contributions received by U.S. Congressmen from various industry groups. It would also not be difficult to find reliable sources expressing concern that
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For several years, Danish intelligence monitored numerous secret meetings between Arne
Petersen, a Danish peace activist and writer, and three KGB agents. According to the Danish Ministry of Justice, the KGB promised to help finance advertisements officially sponsored by Petersen and signed by
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there is some interesting things going on with this article, the Afd is titled "Soviet-run peace movements in the West" and the current title is something quite different, while there is no "Request for move" at the article talk page. Very inappropriate to have a different name than the Afd
820:- documents a notable, observed phenomenon upon which reliable sources have commented extensively. Yes, may need a rename, and yes, some of the sources may have an ideological axe to grind, but the solution is to present relevant opposing viewpoints, not to get rid of the whole thing.
520:, Trotskyist or anarchist. They were fiercely anti-Russian and as such were hated by the Communist Party. It is doubtful that the KGB could have had any influence on them. The editors who have constructed this article seem to be unaware of such differences on the left.
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prominent Danish artists who wanted
Scandinavia to be declared a nuclear-free zone. In November 1981, Norway expelled a suspected KGB agent who had offered bribes to Norwegians to get them to write letters to newspapers denouncing the deployment of new NATO missiles.
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discussion lists. Before any Afd, the naming process should be finalized with correct request for moves, so we know what is exactly at Afd. A name and the resulting scope of the article is something that can be considered during Afd, so it should be settled first.
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Using national
Communist parties or recognized Communist-front organizations like the World Peace Council, the Kremlin has been able to channel funds to a host of new antiwar organizations that would, in many cases, reject the financial help if they knew the
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There's a discussion currently on the article talk page about the title. I thought my move reflected what the article actually says. Now
Marshal's changed the name to a third title. I didn't think it would be disruptive, but perhaps I was wrong.
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The article cites Soviet defectors Lunev and Kalugin's statements on the KGB's funding of campaigns and running of conferences, but they are vague. The best of a clutch of bad sources is Frederick Staar, who had access to FBI reports to the
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The sources are suspect because, despite their access to key documents, they do not name any major peace organisation in the west. The only organisations said to receive funding are the Soviet-run World Peace Council and two obscure
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If there is little evidence of Soviet influence, if it is inherently unlikely and if there are so few reliable sources, how did this article ever come to be written? Since the Second World War conservative ideologues (e.g.
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A cursory search of the article's own Notes section gives a link to a Time magazine article from the '80s. It clearly is reliable and it clearly discusses Soviet support for Western groups. I looked it up. Check it out:
574:, two editors on the secret mailing list, promoted Tretyakov on the Nuclear Winter and Golitsyn talk pages and in this article. To that extent, the Nuclear Winter section in "Soviet-run peace movements" is a
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article, for instance, specifies that the groups in question "would, in many cases, reject the financial help if they knew the source." Other sources simply are not reliable; for instance, one is a book from
801:- it's notable and well cited. If the argument is simply that it doesn't represent a consensus of modern thought, let's either mark it fringe, or introduce the opposing viewpoint into the article. -
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Soviet funding and direction of western 'peace' movements is a well documented historical fact. The fact that certain editors would rather pretend this wasn't the case is neither here nor there.
1014:--There have been tons of documents released by the FSB/KGB supporting this. There are likely other references which were not uncovered by the editors. Da'oud Nkrumah 07:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
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If it were indeed a "well-documented historical fact," then one would expect some real academic sources, not just a handful of works from scurrilous right-wing presses and polemical think tanks.
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840:- please don't move the article to new titles undiscussed on talk. There is consensus for a change from run to influenced, but there is no consensus to add "allegations of" to the title. --
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It is inherently unlikely that the Soviet Union could have run any western peace organisations, given what we know of them. Most were left leaning, but many of the leftists in them were
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a major rift in 1962 at a WPC-organised peace conference in Moscow. The following year, forty western organisations, including some of the major peace groups of the period, set up the
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589:) have presented the peace movement as a Russian tool. I suggest that this article was written to promote a conservative, anti-Russian and anti-peace movement POV.
227:, it would be rapidly deleted as an example of improper synthesis and POV-pushing. This is essentially the same thing, and should be deleted for the same reason.
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The leftists in peace organisations tended to be anti-Stalinist and hence resistant to Soviet influence. The one proven attempt (on CND) failed for that reason.
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The book is likely biased, but I doubt when he is citing figures on how Soviets sponsored certain peace movement organizations he is making it up. --
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for the list of organizations funded by the Soviets, and the following two pages for organizations "closely allied with the fronts". --
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corporations have too much influence on the U.S. political process. But if someone took all this together and made an article called
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So we have a reliable source for "Soviet-supported". You can't seriously doubt that there are reliable sources out there for this.
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hypothesis originated in two articles faked by the KGB and then disseminated by them in the west. The claim is
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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The one proven attempt at Soviet influence on a peace organisation was a dismal failure.
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First of all, I know that this article was listed on AFD not too long ago. Please see
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was, far from being run by the Soviet Union, a notorious apologist for Nazi Germany!
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Three named organisations are said to have been funded by the Soviet Union: the
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Fundamentally, the problem with this article is that it is a clear violation of
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And CNN is a reliable source: From an interview with a former KGB agent:
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As the topic is is tainted by propaganda, we need better corroboration.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Some of the major peace organisations in the Cold War were the
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That's a very long comment. Could you summarize? You state
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The article includes a claim by Sergei Tretyakov that the
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640:As requested, here is a summary of my argument
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436:I don't find this nomination credible.
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66:Soviet-run peace movements in the West
844:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
747:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
409:And on the next page of the article:
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310:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
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1031:contribs
1023:Dnkrumah
1019:unsigned
576:POV fork
518:New Left
498:and the
219:policy.
196:WP:SYNTH
118:View log
931:Comment
838:Comment
653:bodies.
405:source.
200:WP:NPOV
157:WPÂ refs
145:scholar
91:protect
86:history
486:, the
478:, the
456:Delete
129:Google
95:delete
976:radek
849:talk
752:talk
537:Stasi
391:talk
315:talk
269:talk
172:JSTOR
133:books
112:views
104:watch
100:links
16:<
1027:talk
1012:Keep
1001:talk
993:Keep
980:talk
959:talk
903:talk
895:Keep
884:talk
869:talk
860:Keep
818:Keep
807:talk
799:Keep
782:talk
721:talk
625:talk
603:talk
597:.)
585:and
570:and
562:and
535:, a
442:talk
422:talk
378:Try
350:talk
341:Keep
289:1991
255:ISBN
247:Keep
204:Time
165:FENS
139:news
108:logs
82:talk
78:edit
46:keep
179:TWL
116:– (
48:. –
1033:)
1029:•
1003:)
982:)
961:)
905:)
886:)
871:)
809:)
784:)
723:)
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605:)
494:,
490:,
482:,
474:,
470:,
444:)
424:)
352:)
159:)
110:|
106:|
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1025:(
999:(
978:(
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867:(
846:|
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780:(
749:|
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335:.
312:|
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183:)
175:·
169:·
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131:(
123:(
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76:(
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