203:, published in 1997, and the overarching definition is questionable on several levels. The idea is that they aren't major things, but while I can't speak for the non-Masonic groups on the list, the majority of the things claimed to be side degrees are incorporated, independently-run, non-profit organizations (like the Shriners and the Grotto, for example). There were several women's groups listed as well, which I removed because they are not considered "side degrees" for the women. The major ones already have articles. So there's really an issue over whether the content is appropriately encyclopedic - the basic definition is suspect, and we can't have a list based on one source.
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respects. The Shrine uses a "Middle
Eastern" theme, not an "Islamic" one, and the membership requirements claimed have not been true for 15 years. The latter is a matter of timing, but if Axelrod gets a publicly visible organization like the Shrine wrong in basic detail, I'm skeptical of the source. None of the ladies' organizations related to the Shrine are "side degrees" for the women - they are the main organizations, as there is no membership prerequisite for them to join. So aside from the Masonic groups covered elsewhere in greater detail, there are now all of eight entries, most of which are based on one reference in one book.
455:, with 191 centers and 23 privately-funded hospitals, in the same category of "side degree" as whatever that Rotary thing was. In the same way, a "ladies auxiliary to a side degree" is a pretty understated definition for an organization with 243 chapters worldwide, such as Ladies Oriental Shrine. It's fine that you thought it was a good idea, but this is an overly vague dump list of everything you could copy out of three books. This is also what happens when the majority of your sources for modern organizations date back to a hundred years ago.
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All of which seems to be just so much hair splitting. They are all defined as side degrees. We have a definition from
Axelrod, which is a published WP:RS. Some side degrees have larger organizations that other (like the Shriners) but that doesn't mean the other versions of side degrees that exist (or
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The term "side degree" is also used in other sources, such as Preuss, Arthur, Schmidt, Alvin J. and
Stevens, Albert C. Basically the idea is an organization within a larger fraternal organization, originally for humorous effect. I think the Shriners were the original ones within the Masons, but then
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offensive to
Muslims. But the point is, that is hair-spiting - and I can find other resources that make the same statements about different "appendent degrees". The fact is that most of them have become defunct and only the Shriners still exist as a large organization. Whether one wants to call the
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Followup on further editing: I have removed the Rotary heading in the article, as Rotary is not a fraternal organization - it is a service organization and doesn't have degrees in the first place. I have also removed the information given by
Axelrod on the Shrine; it was incorrect in almost all
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have existed) for fraternal orders or service clubs should be assigned to oblivion. BTW, I think your differentiation of a pseudo-Islamic and Middle
Eastern theme is symptomatic of the larger problem. Axelrod rightly states that the Shriners imagery is based on 19th century
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Finally the differences between a service club and a fraternal order are vaguely defined on
Knowledge (XXG). The Category:Fraternal service organizations includes the Kiwanis, Rotary, Elks and Masons. Some of the service clubs had side degrees like the fraternal orders
372:. Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how being in one club while also being in another club is a notable concept. If it's exclusively related to "secret societies" it might be just suitable to mention in the parent article of how they work.
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Double Degree is an academic term. Side
Degrees are fraternal orders "clubs within clubs" like the Shriners for Freemasonry. Other groups have developed side degrees like this to and it made sense to me anyway to create a list for
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That won't help - it's an even broader category, doesn't address the issue of what a side degree is or isn't, and doesn't address the women's groups, because the women's groups are clearly related to the men's.
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Look I only wanted to make a general list article on side degrees. Womens auxiliaries of side degrees are at least related to them. Do you of an authoritative source for a definition of a side degree.--
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misunderstanding of the
Islamic/"Near Eastern" world. It is what we would today call cultural appropriation and aspects of it, particularly allowing alcoholic beverages in the "Shrine" would be
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to List of side degrees and related bodies - this will clear up the confusion of whether women's groups are side degrees and will more correctly identify the content as a list article.--
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If you are looking for a list of womens auxiliary groups, I already have a list for them as well, though I have a feeling you will try to have that deleted too.
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As for not having information on the other orders, I have been busy in grad school the last few months and have not had time to enlarge the entries. --
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And you've cut right to the heart of the problem - you don't have a source defining what is a side degree and what isn't, so you must have engaged in
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Title should not be changed during the AfD. What are your other plans? Article do seem fine.
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womens orders side degrees, appendent orders, etc. is - again - a semantic question.--
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Unencyclopedic. This list is sourced mainly out of one book (Alan
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I agree though, it should be reformatted into "List of side degrees".--
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List of Side degree and related bodies to Auxiliary (fraternal orders)
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International Encyclopedia of Secret Societies and Fraternal Orders
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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399:) 22:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC) I suggest
282:Sorry, didn't know that was a rule.--
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