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complete game installation, but as a package-file for Spring. That is, players get Spring, and then their game. The forum is a shared space. The game lobby (where multiplayer games are organized) is a shared space. The torrent-file distribution system is a shared space. Maps are interoperable. That is to say, presenting Spring as an aggregate of the projects available for it is quite appropriate, since currently that's how the projects present themselves - as Spring packages, rather than stand-alone games. The exceptions to this rule are developing, more ambitious project that were not mentioned in the above references (well Star Wars Spring is now, but it was not at the time of the articles on it). I realize the AFD discussion is over, I just felt that this issue had to be cleared up. Either way, I agree that this article probably falls on the darkish-grey side of
Notability and needs a hell of a clean-up, but I'm a firm inclusionist. Hopefully this AFD mess will encourage people to pare the article down to Knowledge (XXG) standards.
753:
matter. I think people visit
Knowledge (XXG) to read up on the "Spring Project" not to read about "Total Annihilation". Personally I think that the article lacks quality. It opens with a section on "Source Code" and has a "Features" list that reads like a advertisement. Bad, bad, bad. And yes it's light on independent sourcing but it's there. And considering the fact that Linux distributions are picking it up now that there's good open source game content available - I suspect that there will be more people that "discover" Spring and start writing about it. It's simply one of the best open source Linux games out there. They kept a low profile when most good content was based on the "TA" IP but I don't see why that would continue.--
775:, both of which are pretty remarkable. I have to question the validity of such votes for deletion whenever the users in question have not actually looked into the matter at hand. In conclusion, rather than mark for deletion the users in question, being psychonaut(someone who seems to enjoy being troublesome) and Xymmax both be placed under watch. No research was done and they merely moved to delete on the grounds that spring was a game, when the article clearly cites that spring is an engine. One has to question the reading comprehension levels of these two or recognize that they did not give the article more than a cursory glance. Such behavior is reckless and unacceptable.
1424:. And merging it in the TA article wouldn't suit this project, because it's neither a TA clone nor is it a further development on the top of the original TA code, which was btw never be made open source as quake3. That's why the Spring project tries for a very long time now to distance itself from TA. It's true that the current Spring article doesn't reflect this enough (the whole header should be rewritten) and is overall in a bad state (it reads like a promotion text), but this doesn't legitimate a deletion as a whole in my opinion.
1643:. Once again a mere writeup is only found online. The print version goes more in-depth. Finding both sources took me all of five minutes. As far as the link you provided about the Google Scholar discussions, I fail to see how that would apply to the particular sources mentioned here. Both sources use Spring as the basis for the entire paper. If I write a paper on blood flow and only mention the heart once, does that make the heart not notable even though without it I could not conduct my analysis? --
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unnecessarily aggressive - Knowledge (XXG) policy is dependent upon interpretation, many articles are viewed under one standard, others under another. Anyway, my keep is on the basis that it will be replaced with a more accurate article, which I am writing. In the event that this article is deleted before the completion of the replacement, that is no problem, an article dealing with Spring and in line with policy will be put up when it is completed. In no case should this article be merged with that of
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itself is poor, being a hold-over from a
Knowledge (XXG) long past and I am now rewriting it to both serve the project and Knowledge (XXG) better. This will take some time, as I am busy with professional life - but the primary change you should be aware of is that, since Spring is not a game, but an engine, it will be listed as such. It will meet notability guidelines, as will any of the specific game articles which I choose write thereafter. However, I must note a fundamental problem with the
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say not good enough to each attempt to find something that appeals to your standards. Why not make the effort to help clean up the article, and find some of what you consider valid sources? It seems to me that no matter what is done, you guys will regard the engine and not notable and have it deleted, so why should we bother to try? Honestly, the guy neddiedrow is trying to make a version that will be up to snuff. Rather than demanding deletion, why not help get it in order?
1965:. I think the main problem with this article is that wants to be all at once. If this project has several separately developed spinoffs, mods, etc., it may be best to treat them as all individually, as separate subjects with their respective pages. But you can't provide a bunch of loosely associated sources that don't address the subject directly (and generally don't even mention it at all) and call them indicative of notability. That's the essence of my view. —
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1830:... that article is moderately hilarious, since it defines an arbitrary, unheard-of version of puppetry (contacting the relevant parties and informing them of AFD is meat puppetry???) and then utterly fails to mention it again, instead going on to discuss the wholly separate issue of sockpuppet accounts. Once again, a reminder of how Knowledge (XXG) is like lawmaking and sausage-making. -
1874:, nor are the novel features of the engine. We do not have the money to pay people to review or use our software, and if we did, those people would still need to meet the subjective standards of . Luckily, this will not be a problem, since it is used enough academically by virtue of functionality and quality.
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in regard to open source software - notability as shown on
Knowledge (XXG) is established through academic articles, reviews, and pop-culture references; without the support of commercial advertising and a commercial advertising budget, these seldom appear - when they do, in the case of various Linux
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outside of the fact that you marked it for deletion because you incorrectly thought it was a game, and the fact that wikipedia is supposed to about information. Seems like all wikipedia cares about these days is how much buzz an item has and not the distribution of information. I really would like to
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This article is about a open source game engine, what is rare. It should be said that both
Knowledge (XXG) and Wikimedia aid open source community, so they both enforce the coverage of open source projects (following the guidelines of a good article of course), I don't wanna be offensive, but what is
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Perhaps not, I am not a wikipedia janitor. All the effort to delete a page without trying to see if he could find an acceptable article. I do not think that psychonaut made the effort to even look. Had he looked he would have at least known enough to cite lack of reference rather than call it a game.
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I think the significant numbers of mods and independent websites is relevant here (linked or discussed in article, 300k+ posts in main forum). Also, not many games can claim to have been used in published academic research. I think that covers notability; verifiability is not currently a problem for
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I do not have the time to involve myself overmuch in Wiki politics, which is the primary force behind most, if not all, deletions and topic reviews. Nor will I make references to
Knowledge (XXG) policy, as discussion of such, rather than action on the basis of such, is usually fruitless. The article
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Rankiri and the people arguing for deletion are calling an engine a game. Seems fairly uninformed, so why is it wrong to ask people to come and clarify the misconception. I have appealed for common decency and asked what is it that needs to change and yet you guys give us some ambiguous articles and
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Those magazines are commercial and have a certain business model. Their product is made of dead trees which you can't link. Due to their business model they might not see any value in putting (years old) editions online for free. Articles about games are (mostly) limited to pc magazines. News papers
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cute, so because those of us who actually know about the engine have been asked to try and help sort the issue you call it sock puppetry. Where are the individuals debating the points coming from? Checking latest revisions I suppose. So you guys have a dynamic thread of stuff being altered that you
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something like that further research is needed, but someone from inside (a player) can do it, the Spring community features over than 10.000 registered users, the average online connections per client are 300, over than 20 simultaneous battles happen each minute (depending on lenght), it is a shame
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Your argumment is invalid, there are THOUSAND of non-commercial AND yet DISCONTINUED softwares being covered by
Knowledge (XXG), what do you consider contiguous group or organization? And Spring Project is under heavy development, each month its engine has an minor update and each semester it has a
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Spring is free software, you're free to try it yourself - if you did, you'd find out how Spring does not follow the pattern typical of most closed-source engines, or OGRE-like engines that were more libraries than full platforms. Most game/mod developers on Spring do not bundle their content as a
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I'm not calling anyone a sockpuppet. A disproportionate number of unregistered and new users joined the discussion without fully understanding
Knowledge (XXG)'s core principles and policies. The notice is only a call for additional attention to the strengths of the arguments. If your viewpoint is
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trivial mentions as others had supposed. It's amazing what you'll find if you actually read more of the article than the little blurb. Both experiments use Spring as the basis, therefore increasing notability. On that note I think we as
Wikipedians often throw out Google Scholar links for that
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The Spring project is moving away from its Total
Annihilation roots in a steady pace. In the sense that the developers are removing code that was written to support specific "TA" type gameplay. Even if someone merges this article with the Total Annihilation article.. Spring is a different subject
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indicates that the game may have been included on PCGamer's disk because of a user request. Such disks are always filled with mods, demos and other not necessarily notable freeware so I doubt this alone demonstrates any kind of notability for the game/engine. One of the mentioned Google Scholar
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please clarify what you mean by significant coverage in the context of an open source engine. Detail why is it that the engine is not notable, the specialization in rts gaming is a first for an open source engine of this calibur. At least as far as I have seen. Engines like ogre and irlich lend
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developer, user, and advocate myself, and the fact that Spring is "open source" has no bearing on this nomination. Indeed, if you review my contribution history you'll see that I nominated many other articles for deletion, probably including software, that have nothing to do with open source.
1375:. I realise that itself does not have an own article, however I'm not sure where information on this Engine might best be tucked in. I'm afraid a section within the Total Annihilation article (as suggested further above) would be quite out of place, as the Engine is not derived of that game.
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on the part of the participants. It is worth noting that citation of policy is not a substitute for argumentation, rather it is meant as augmentation to such, and the assertion that those who recently joined the discussion do not understand Knowledge (XXG) policy is generally unfounded and
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I'd therefore suggest moving this article to "Spring (game engine)", overhauling the article itself (accordingly) and depending on the outcome of the overhaul, not deleting. I myself would be glad to take on those steps, and barring vocal opposition, would start on it soon. Regards
1758:
can pick and choose what battles you get to fight. Seems to be a bit hypocritical to say meat puppet when you have an entire wiki community. Again, I want to know what is notable. your notability link is ambiguous and suggests that essentially only buzz equals notability.
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I'm sure it represents a possible source for Star Wars Imperial Winter, but whether it represents a source for Spring is another matter. Does the article in question discuss Spring in any depth? Also, who publishes the magazine, and how and how widely is it distributed?
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Very lazy. I do not doubt that it is possible to say that such a small engine is obscure. However, that is not the point of argument. The point of argument is that spring is a game, which it is not. This whole discussion is because psychonaut doesn't do his homework.
1961:. PC Gamer UK only looks at Star Wars Spring, Cyberstratège appears to provide a strategy guide for TA Spring, the only nontrivial Google Scholar document deals with Total Annihilation: Spring and LinuxGameZoo particularly declares that its review covers
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As for the desire for more attention to be paid to the people who recently joined the discussion, I can only say that there should be more scrutiny levelled against those who assert such - contribution by newer, interested users is not a manifestation of
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distributions and alternatives to commercial software, this is due to a dedicated group of people willing to invest copious amounts of their own resources in advertisement. We cannot cite the number of people who use the software, that is not grounds for
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for further details. If you find another article which also fails to meet Knowledge (XXG)'s sourcing and notability criteria, then it should be tagged for deletion as well, not held as an example of why some other non-notable article should be kept.
989:). There is a gap of dates in the files activies because these were published through other service rather than SourceForge. Your opinion lacks bias and further research, you are saying POV pretty things rather than being fair and yet non-tendentious.
1903:, they are substantively different and one is not dependent upon the other. Spring is a platform for a variety of commercial and non-commercial games, the notable of which will be added independently to Knowledge (XXG) after I rewrite this article.
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Eduemoni, could you perhaps make a few stub sections in the article so that people could have an idea of what needs to be entered? If only in the discussion section, I suspect that people like this neddiedrow guy might come back and do more
1038:
Original citation notes spring as a game not engine. Therefore I move that the move for deletion was made on an incorrect understanding rather than an actual reason. The site mooddb has the spring engine listed with several projects. See:
1043:. Entire rational for deletion was based on assumption that spring was a game rather than an engine. I move that the individual be reprimanded for improper usage of wikipedia and his deletion recommendations go under higher scrutiny.
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in order to satisfy Knowledge (XXG)'s general notability guidelines. Regretfully, I wasn't able to find such sources myself and I don't see anything concrete in the discussion above. Perhaps I really did miss something after all. —
1606:. Slashdot entries are user-submitted. Cyberstratège's website shows no coverage of the game. PCGamer UK doesn't list the project in its database and shows zero search results for "Spring". This PCGamer UK forum discussion
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Pardon me, but I have no good reason to believe that either magazine provided any type of significant coverage for the game. Both references come from a new user, who—no offense—seems to be unfamiliar with the concept of
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Do you know a "large-scale" non-commercial open source game engine? Also Spring is actualy used in a commercial project, still I don't think it's relevant for Knowledge (XXG) if a project is or is not commercial.--
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documents offers extremely limited, trivial coverage. The other one goes into some details but it I agree with Marasmusine and decline to view it as a single notability-establishing source (see
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I'm an involved party (as a developer of a game using the Spring Engine, and community member), and thus biased, but I'd my opinion would be that the Engine compares quite favorably with eg.
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that some wiki users make some non rational without bias opinions, because of this article I became a Spring player and this article should be kept for its relevance.
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didn't turn up anything for this game in the way of reviews. Content-wise, the article contains a good deal of content inappropriate for an encyclopedia article (see
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tag on the page since June 2009, all the article's references are to the project's own websites (with the single exception of an interview with the developers).
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My point exactly...it's small scale AND non-commercial AND not developed by a notable contiguous group or organization - all strikes against its notability.
1669:, notability of a child project is not particularly relevant to that of its parent. We had a very similar discussion for the Halo engine about a year ago:
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There are only a few active open source game projects, within that scope Spring is a notable player. Still the article needs work to convey that. --
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The rather cheerily(?) named Spring engine is a live framework for making RTS games, most notably the loving Total Anniilation remake Spring:TA.
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is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.
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I work in Biostatistical research by trade, and at least two of the papers listed have several citations. What do you consider "very low". --
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The thing is that spring is not total annihilation, many of the projects are not in any way related to total annihilation. Projects such as
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These papers have a very low number of citations, and no indication that they have been peer reviewed, so they don't lend any weight here.
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1673:. When seen as an open source RTS game engine, Spring doesn't seem to have any type of independent nontrivial coverage of its own. —
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From what I can tell, the scanned article is dedicated to Star Wars Spring and only contains a single reference to the engine itself:
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idea, but it will need specific mention in the article to distinguish that its an open source project that grew out of the original.
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1635:. PCGamer's web search engine is not exactly reliable when it comes to digging up articles. A scan of the writeup can be found
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reason. We think "Oh, Only see the article's title twice in the article, so they must be passing mentions." I'm not saying we
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articles use Spring as its basis for research, so though the engine isn't called by name a lot, it certainly adds notability --
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themselves to fps and third person games where as this engine is highly specialized for rts needs. How would one cite that?
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1495:, and nominating an article for deletion has no bearing on the nominator's personal feelings towards the subject. I'm a
1639:, which covers both the engine and the Star Wars: Imperial Winter game. The Cyberstratège article can be found covered
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know why you decided to pick on an open source engine for the wrong reasons and then decided to continue to pursue it.
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I didn't nominate this article for deletion because it was about a game; I nominated it because it didn't seem to be
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The scholar mentions above are trivial coverage I'm afraid. Using the game as a research method doesn't tell us much
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At the moment, this is looking a bit light on independant sourcing for a stand alone article. I like the merge to
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If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
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but not significant either. This project probably warrants a mention in the main TA article and that's about it.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Mentioned in at least 2 magazines: PCGamer (UK) February 2008, Cyberstratège July-August 2006. Also mentioned
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What evidence do you have that the project is significant (in any sense relevant to Knowledge (XXG) policy)? —
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supported by Knowledge (XXG)'s key policies, it will not be dismissed no matter how many edits you have. —
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even the developers of the game itself), not to forget that Spring is an engine and so it shouldn't be on
917:- Small-scale non-commercial open source game engine...obviously not notable as per WP notability policy.
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enough to merit an encyclopedia article here. Keep in mind that Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia, not
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uses the Spring Engine. It's an independent source that can be noted. OpenSuse has a page on Spring here
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I am an engine dev that's why I am biased too, still I find the argument of missing RS quite weak, e.g.
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The article really needs a cleanup to meet its guideline. A Copy-edit would do the thing for instance.
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Starwars Imperial winter was featured in a magazine, does that represent one possible source?
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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That's 7 good refs right there. Now We're getting too complacent with the "it's not on the
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Though I don't own the issue, evidence of the Spring engine in PCGamer can be found
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do that, but enough of us do to make it a problem. Additional refs provided above:
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major update since its release, the development activity can be seen through its
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However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to
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on slashdot. Open source engine, several games base on that, 1 commercial game.
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I think this article provides useful information about a significant project.
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PCGamer (UK) February 2008, Cyberstratège July-August 2006. Also mentioned
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As much as I'd like to see this article survive, none of those count as
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http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21972&start=0
1558:" arguement, instead of truly looking at the references provided. --
893:- covers Star Wars: Imperial Winter, which runs on the engine. Also
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What sources can you bring to the table to convey its notability?
1416:. Also Spring and its games are listed on several websites, e.g.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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does only link to their own website too. And having an entry in
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lists the Spring Engine as the only open source rts engine.--
889:- minor source, which I don't know are necessarily reliable
101:(agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments,
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Ubuntu started shipping Spring in its latest 9.10 release.
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I would like to point out that those two websites are not
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among Knowledge (XXG) contributors. Knowledge (XXG) has
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arguments may sound, the subject still needs to receive
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Well, "Pure" a commercial game that can be purchased at
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sources address the subject directly in detail, and no
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Seems to be covered by enough sources to be notable. —
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Probably non-notable game. Despite the presence of a
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for more information on the subject of notability. —
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says pretty less, because anyone can add it (-: -->
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1219:What sources, exactly? I must have missed them. —
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2009:). No further edits should be made to this page.
668:http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/spring-engine
335:list of video game related deletion discussions
1941:. Let me reiterate something I said earlier:
1692:don't have gamers as primary target audience.
509:list of Software-related deletion discussions
121:Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected
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392:before nominating an article for deletion?
1493:an indiscriminate collection of information
1438:Just because some other articles, such as
672:http://packages.debian.org/unstable/spring
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95:regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
388:Is it asking too much of the nom to do a
507:: This debate has been included in the
333:: This debate has been included in the
115:on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.
1959:in any of the above mentioned sources
532:. The academic papers are about some
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1671:WP:Articles for deletion/Halo Engine
1240:. As persuasive as a tidal wave of
1041:http://www.moddb.com/engines/spring
675:http://www.moddb.com/engines/spring
390:reasonable search on Google Scholar
1613:and other similar discussions). —
1530:are Google Scholar links that are
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1287:"Significant coverage" means that
479:If it's verifiable, then perhaps
1955:the Spring project doesn't have
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769:http://www.imperialwinter.com/
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664:http://en.opensuse.org/Spring
660:http://impulsedriven.com/pure
355:I can't find any evidence of
111:on the part of others and to
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1920:Well said on all counts. --
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1434:11:07, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
1394:(apologies, the anon was me)
1391:09:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
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709:20:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
687:23:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
648:07:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
619:01:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
598:10:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
577:11:13, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
563:04:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
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60:22:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
1706:Additional source found at
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1260:reliable secondary sources
1953:pages treat it as such),
1579:the reference provide by
987:also its files activities
2002:Please do not modify it.
1556:list of reliable sources
1258:significant coverage in
32:Please do not modify it.
1068:a non-notable game? To
359:for this video game. A
153:; accounts blocked for
123:single-purpose accounts
93:policies and guidelines
773:http://spring1944.net/
487:and mention it there.
1867:notability guidelines
1446:article. Please see
1146:few or no other edits
940:few or no other edits
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805:few or no other edits
632:few or no other edits
1148:outside this topic.
983:SourceForge.net page
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846:outside this topic.
819:significant coverage
807:outside this topic.
697:significant coverage
634:outside this topic.
373:A Stop at Willoughby
1957:any direct coverage
1418:The Linux Game Tome
105:by counting votes.
84:not a majority vote
1901:Total Annihilation
1369:Comment/Suggestion
724:Total Annihilation
485:Total Annihilation
44:The result was
1896:assume good faith
1854:
1837:comment added by
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1833:—Preceding
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1760:—Preceding
1581:User:Krator
1468:—Preceding
1324:—Preceding
1238:Weak delete
1144:) has made
1065:Strong Keep
1045:—Preceding
938:) has made
855:—Preceding
842:) has made
803:) has made
777:—Preceding
640:Marasmusine
630:) has made
534:AI planners
489:Marasmusine
464:User:Krator
408:Marasmusine
274:free images
1905:Neddiedrow
1876:Neddiedrow
1872:notability
1694:Gtwkndhpqu
1502:Psychonaut
1453:Psychonaut
1383:Sean Heron
1346:Psychonaut
1246:WP:IKNOWIT
1242:WP:ILIKEIT
1134:Gtwkndhpqu
1121:Gtwkndhpqu
569:Psychonaut
458:is from a
455:the game.
369:WP:VGSCOPE
357:notability
316:Psychonaut
312:Refimprove
89:discussion
1414:MobyGames
1409:MobyGames
365:MobyGames
145:canvassed
139:canvassed
98:consensus
1951:Download
1847:contribs
1835:unsigned
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481:redirect
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177:username
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887:Comment
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530:Comment
430:Teancum
280:WPÂ refs
268:scholar
208:protect
203:history
141:users:
1426:Jk3064
1420:&
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915:Delete
729:Xymmax
449:Delete
394:Samboy
361:search
353:Delete
339:Nifboy
252:Google
212:delete
1947:About
1604:WP:RS
1546:times
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1117:times
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256:books
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217:links
119:Note:
16:<
1986:talk
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54:(
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