Knowledge (XXG)

:Articles for deletion/Stephen Griffiths - Knowledge (XXG)

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51:. In terms of keep vs delete, there seems to be a consensus that the subject and/or the events in which he is involved are notable enough for coverage in Knowledge (XXG). However, there also seems to a consensus in favour of renaming the article and reworking it to cover the eventts rather than their alleged perpetrator. Those arguing for this make strong atrguments which I feel are backed up by our policy on biographies of living persons. In addition, looking at this from a long-term perspective that an encyclopaedia should take, should the subject be acquitted by a jury, it would seem a gross BLP violation to keep an article on him that so intricately deals with the events he is accused of being a part of, thus I am closing this discussion as 347:'s case caused a police visit to a UK editor. We are not trained journalists, and someone will make a libellous mistake. Wait until after the trial. This is far more important than simple keep/delete. If the defence claims the trial has been prejudiced and it is cancelled, someone else will have to appear in front of the judge and we're the people most likely to make a mistake. A high level Wiki policy statement is needed on cases which are subjudice. Renaming is fine in principle but won't stop someone adding back the carefully removed details. 494:'real' and acting correctly (both true) I considered his request and, specifically, that it was strongly felt that should this article remain in place then the court action could be thrown out. Now, as other media coverage has noted, there is a very serious charge against this individual and given that there is a lot of history about him in this article I concurred that in the best interests of justice it would be very much preferable if the content was removed temporarily. 1125:"Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not our job to be sensationalist, ... and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." Currently, as someone who has merely been accused, a standalone article under the name of a living person is unacceptable. 1001:- sources like this may prejudice his trial. Although this article does not say he killed them, it is strengthening the link between him and the women. The justice system of this country is based on 'innocent until proven guilty',and the jury will be selected from the general public, who are easily swayed by the media, and a wikipedia page adds sustenance to the prosecution's case, before we even know what the evidence is. 1048:- on principle, we normally don't name articles about serial killers, particularly when they are current events. We normally name the article after the victim (ie: murder of, killing of, etc), or give it an appropriate title. However, if this series of cases prove both related and significant (they still have not found two of the three bodies), then it should be renamed. Rgds, -- 388:. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't have a team of lawyers checking each article. Every line will have the crucial word "allegedly" and no speculation on whether he's a cannibal. Miss it out and Knowledge (XXG), not the newspaper is committing an offence. If he's found guily you can legally say what you like. It's not subjudice, his reputation is worthless and he can't sue. 947:- I've been working on this on Wikinews and was surprised it took some time for a WP page to appear. The media coverage has been global (though I confess I've mainly stuck with British sources) and, realistically, serial killer cases are usually notable. However, I also agree that we can't name the page after Griffiths - especially without even a conviction. 1105:
is only an alleged murderer, so that we must be careful. There are severe restrictions on what UK newspapers are allowed to print about a criminal case before there is a conviction. WP should be as circumspect. UK editors are probably subject to the same restrcitions as the press. These are designed to ensure that a person can get a fair trial.
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in some form (possibly renamed). I think that other articles tend to entitled as about the murder, rather than its perpetrator (in this case alleged perpetrator). However, multiple murders are particularly notorious. This article will no doubt develop as the trial process develops. At present, he
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In this case, I was approached by an Police Officer, acting on behalf of the court, that there were very strong reasons why this article (and its caches, which were being dealt with separately) should not be available for the duration of the case. After making confirmatory checks that the officer was
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I see no trace of UK police visiting a UK editor in the paragraph you quote. That said, it seems we have no policy about the subjudice -also because if we comply to UK restrictions on content, why shouldn't we comply with, say, China or Iran restrictions on content? Again: WP is not based in the UK,
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Twenty years ago, the rules were total press silence after charges and 3-6 months before the trial to give people time to forget. The internet has made that more difficult and I've seen reports of juries researching cases. Tobin was very difficult as he had a very highly publicised trial, followed
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and no need to rename. Clearly has sufficient coverage to be notable and I would argue that renaming to the "event" is more of a BLP issue than making it crystal clear in the article that he is a suspect rather than convicted. If it is renamed, the article will have to be completely rewritten to
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or similar; focus on the details of the killings, and keep mentions of Griffiths to a single section (so that it can easily be updated as events progress, without the risk of inadvertently leaving harmful information lying unnoticed elsewhere in the article). I presume the police have explicitly
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should be concerned about, as it repeats unproven allegations about a living person which are obviously potentially harmful to that person. We've been sidetracked this year by a handful of disruptive editors (included some admins and at least one steward) into a moral panic about poorly sourced
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I happen to have recently discovered that the definition of serial killer used on Knowledge (XXG) is at least three murders for psychological gratification, over a period of more than 30 days, with a cooling off period in between them. However we should be using whatever the media is using. --
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sad to have to go trough theese kind of Afd processes everytime when trying to start a new crime article. Even tough itd sbout s notable case like this. World attention. attention from major news sources. etc etc. I wasnt the one who started this article so i dont know why i got the Afd
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article. I've no objections to the rename option, but per Ă…landĂ–land, in this particular case at this time, I'm not convinced it's the best option. As far as I'm aware, these three alleged murders are only linked through the investigation and charges against this one person. --
611:. A point here though, I'm not certain it's not actually a serial murder case. Wouldn't there have needed to have been five murders for it to be a serial murder case? That's only going to be so if the earlier cases from 1992 and the early 2000s are linked to this one. 1376:
In that case, the decision on whether or not to rename it should be decided in a move debate. Although mergers, redirects and moves are often proposed in a deletion debate, ultimately a deletion debate exists to decide whether or not to delete the article completely.
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on the subject -any update on this subject? It seems that even BBC doesn't take information from its archives down, so I'd lean towards keeping information (and if some juror looks on the Internet during the trial, it's the juror's fault, not ours)
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because he may still yet be proven innocent. Also, the guy has garnered much attention in this country (the UK) and is therefore quite possibly notable in his own right even if the killer turns out to be someone else or is never found.
1197:. It would be easy enough to spin off a section on Griffiths-the-person (or indeed any other suspect) into a separate article if he is convicted, while keeping the main treatment of the crimes and investigation in the original article. 700:
In my opinion no merge is necessary..considering that this Stephen Griffiths has got all the attention on him not the murders itself. Its different in other cases. But here Stephen as a person is what is of interest of the media
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If guilty, he probably passes that definition. He has been charged with three murders and one of the women has been missing for a substantial time. As for the reason why, we're still guessing until any trial.
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by another a long time later. The key point though is to avoid speculative references to cannibalism, or any other assumption of guilt before the end of the trial. We don't want to become notable! Regards
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This would never have been even a issue had this been about an american. which is totally bias. Sad that wikipedia still is america friendly when it comes to crime articles,more than rest of the world.--
876:. The amount of media coverage of the case is vast, and there can be little doubt now to the notability. However, it's better to write articles about the murders, not the alleged murderer. 422: 233:
Because of his unusual self-christened nickname, I specifically googled "crossbow cannibal wiki" to find an article on the guy, hoping to read more without sifting through media filler. –
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linked the killings - though would we need that to justify us treating them jointly, as they have obviously implicitly linked them by charging one man with the three? Maybe redirect from
1283:. No-one deemed it necessary to delete that although SluggoOne is about to. SO is trying to suggest that I am unreasonable. The evidence is there for people to make up their own minds. 1223:
articles saying "Joe Bloggs is a footballer playing for Anytown United" rather than concentrating on the cases, such as this one, that have the potential to cause real, serious, harm.
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Ok, I understand. But we're not a newspaper and WP is not based in the UK. That said, I am curious to know more about the Tobin case and the UK editor. Do you have a relevant link? --
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I personally agree, but our policies differ. In theory I could argue too for an IAR simple keep, but renaming and creating an article about the event seems the best option. --
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Actually yet i cant see a clear pattern that most people wont it to be renamed....The discussion should be closed as no consensus. and be kept under its current name.--
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The above comment was made by a user who moved Sowell's page so much it got, at my request, move protected. (The first move was to the highly inappropriate and lurid "
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Considering he referred to himself as 'The Crossbow Cannibal in court I don't think we're going to influence the ruling. I'd say keep, it's certainly notable enough.
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Ouch, I've seen -I was reading the wrong paragraph. I'd say it is a very good reason for UK editors not to get involved, but not a reason to remove the content. --
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reasons to comply with it. If there are possible liabilities for UK editors, we can advice editing of the article and talk page to be avoided by UK editors. --
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under the current name - that means determining a consensus between "delete" or finding a consensus for different focus and name for the article.
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I like this concept but we may still need to be careful. The defence may say they weren't all committed by the same person, we don't know.
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I would have gone with the Imperial Avenue Murders initially, except there was no mention of Imperial Avenue in the article. If
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Would never have becomed any discussion about merge or rename had this been about an american serial killer. Totally biased.--
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No probs. I would be happy if the article was edit protected until completion of the trial. I won't touch with a barge pole.
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If he isnt notable then no other serial killer suspect of serial killer is notable. Or do we have some American bias here?--
607:- I don't think Griffiths himself is notable, but the case itself could be, so perhaps we need to rename it something like 1382: 1288: 1249: 881: 1330: 1190: 1476: 36: 1244:? Seem to be a similar debate, and the hoops I'm being made to jump through to edit are getting smaller all the time. 207:
As somebody who has just been charged with three murders, he is not notable at present, though he may become so. See
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He currently has a really high profile in the Media and thus notability. Also he has become a famous serial killer
963:, as I commented on the article's talk page there are enough noteworthy aspects, and enough media reports, to make 897: 741: 706: 288: 272: 152: 421:
Did a bit of research; found nothing about a visit to a UK editor, but understood the point better. There is this
300:- i was going to do this page myself, but my connection was so shit I couldn't operate wikipedia properly today. 1062:
I still say keep here. This article subject has becomed ntoable in his own right. To delete seems meaningless.--
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Everything! English law is very harsh on newspapers who state allegations or speculative assumptions as facts
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Unless he turns out to be a random fantastist with matching DNA, this article is likely to remain of note
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and establish a Stephen/Steven/Steve Griffiths disambiguation page as there are now quite a few of them.
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I'm a Brit. I want it renamed. He hasn't been convicted; he hasn't even been tried for goodness sake.
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I am an Italian. Living in the UK. Agree with renaming. Your conspiracy theories are nonsense. --
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Note also the final sentence in warning not to publish material which would prejudice the trial.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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I have seen no policy based reasoning that suggests anything close to the BLP demand that it
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is so inappropriate and lurid, it's strange that this disambiguation page refers to Rose and
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from where it can be moved to another title if consensus determines it to be appropriate.
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The one thing I do NOT see here is a consensus to keep under the current name!
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seems notable enough plus he has been in media enough for own notability.--
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while the trial is ongoing. At the moment he would only be notable by
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On second thought, maybe are we too much paranoid? I mean, BBC keeps
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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into an article about the serial murders, per TheRetroGuy and
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Ehm, what do we have to do with prejudice of the trial? --
1085:. Were he to be found innocent, then he's not notable. 445: 121: 117: 113: 183: 197: 1218:. This is precisely the sort of article that the 39:). No further edits should be made to this page. 1479:). No further edits should be made to this page. 1405:Well, neither no consensus to change the name.-- 1171:focus on the murders rather than the suspect. - 423:impossibly long archived discussion from 2008 8: 797:list of England-related deletion discussions 849:list of People-related deletion discussions 843: 823:list of Crime-related deletion discussions 817: 791: 55:but will immediately move it to the title 319:Lots of ongoing news coverage, plenty of 847:: This debate has been included in the 821:: This debate has been included in the 795:: This debate has been included in the 1321:to be about the case, not the accused. 1220:policy on biographies of living people 446:Fourth paragraph, response by Alison W 569:online. Why BBC can, and we can't? -- 18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion 7: 1189:Not necessarily - see handling of 1144:2009-2010 Bradford serial killings 24: 1341:Keep and rename Bradford murders 46:Keep and provisionally rename to 1240:. Can we widen this to include 757:per Cyclopia, TheRetroGuy and 1: 1191:Steve Wright (serial killer) 1496: 546:Me neither. Thanks. :) -- 70:Penny for your thoughts? 1472:Please do not modify it. 1462:13:41, 4 June 2010 (UTC) 1435:00:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC) 1415:23:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 1401:21:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 1387:18:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 1372:18:09, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 1356:18:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 1336:19:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC) 1314:05:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC) 1293:02:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC) 1271:00:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC) 1254:23:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 1233:20:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 1207:16:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 1181:15:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC) 1161:17:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC) 1135:23:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1115:20:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1095:20:04, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1072:17:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1058:17:48, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1041:15:20, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1022:11:05, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 994:10:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 973:21:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 956:16:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 934:11:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 915:16:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 902:16:26, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 886:15:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 864:14:18, 29 May 2010 (UTC) 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703:ÅlandÖland 285:ÅlandÖland 269:ÅlandÖland 1281:Fred West 1050:Trident13 856:• Gene93k 830:• Gene93k 804:• Gene93k 267:notice.-- 217:ColinFine 1018:contribs 1006:unsigned 779:contribs 767:unsigned 759:WP:BLP1E 677:WP:BLP1E 252:galaxies 213:WP:BLP1E 132:View log 1332:Windows 1238:Comment 1173:ukexpat 327:Lugnuts 231:Comment 209:WP:PERP 177:WP refs 165:scholar 105:protect 100:history 1348:Ggoere 1324:Fences 1266:Şłџğģő 1216:Delete 1123:WP:BLP 1079:Delete 999:Delete 990:(talk) 970:zzuuzz 874:Rename 628:zzuuzz 605:Rename 342:Delete 149:Google 109:delete 1328:& 466:legal 321:WP:RS 192:JSTOR 153:books 126:views 118:watch 114:links 16:< 1458:talk 1450:Keep 1431:talk 1411:talk 1397:talk 1383:talk 1368:talk 1352:talk 1310:talk 1302:Keep 1289:talk 1250:talk 1229:talk 1203:talk 1193:and 1177:talk 1168:Keep 1157:talk 1131:talk 1111:talk 1102:Keep 1091:talk 1068:talk 1054:talk 1037:talk 1029:Keep 1014:talk 978:Keep 965:some 922:Cycl 898:talk 882:talk 872:but 870:Keep 860:talk 845:Note 834:talk 819:Note 808:talk 793:Note 775:talk 742:talk 718:Cycl 707:talk 682:Cycl 679:. -- 662:talk 658:JRPG 642:talk 617:talk 572:Cycl 567:this 549:Cycl 538:talk 534:JRPG 516:Cycl 505:talk 501:JRPG 471:Cycl 455:talk 451:JRPG 429:Cycl 405:Cycl 394:talk 390:JRPG 368:Cycl 353:talk 349:JRPG 333:talk 317:Keep 306:talk 298:Keep 289:talk 273:talk 264:Keep 221:talk 211:and 185:FENS 159:news 122:logs 96:talk 92:edit 53:keep 1142:as 1033:IJA 928:pia 854:-- 828:-- 802:-- 724:pia 688:pia 578:pia 555:pia 522:pia 477:pia 435:pia 411:pia 374:pia 242:oςc 239:αun 236:Ker 199:TWL 134:• 130:– ( 1460:) 1433:) 1413:) 1399:) 1385:) 1370:) 1354:) 1312:) 1291:) 1252:) 1231:) 1205:) 1179:) 1159:) 1133:) 1113:) 1093:) 1070:) 1056:) 1039:) 1020:) 1016:• 900:) 884:) 862:) 851:. 836:) 825:. 810:) 799:. 781:) 777:• 744:) 709:) 664:) 644:) 619:) 540:) 507:) 457:) 426:-- 396:) 355:) 335:) 323:. 308:) 291:) 275:) 248:ia 245:op 223:) 215:. 179:) 124:| 120:| 116:| 112:| 107:| 103:| 98:| 94:| 67:| 1456:( 1429:( 1409:( 1395:( 1381:( 1366:( 1350:( 1308:( 1287:( 1248:( 1227:( 1201:( 1175:( 1155:( 1129:( 1109:( 1089:( 1066:( 1052:( 1035:( 1012:( 925:o 896:( 880:( 858:( 832:( 806:( 773:( 740:( 721:o 705:( 685:o 660:( 640:( 615:( 575:o 552:o 536:( 519:o 503:( 474:o 453:( 432:o 408:o 392:( 371:o 351:( 331:( 304:( 287:( 271:( 219:( 203:) 195:· 189:· 181:· 174:· 168:· 162:· 156:· 151:( 143:( 140:) 128:) 90:(

Index

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
deletion review
Bradford murders
Bradford murders
HJ Mitchell
Penny for your thoughts?
02:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
edit
talk
history
protect
delete
links
watch
logs
views
View log
AfD statistics
Google
books
news
scholar
free images
WP refs
FENS
JSTOR
TWL
WP:PERP

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