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is a close personal friend of Steve Cottle. samrolken has no expertise or interest in comics. (Source, recent letter he posted and appended at dailydose, second source, interview of Steve Cottle, transcript kept). Sangorshop and I have expertise in comics. His expertise far exceeds mine. We have both known of Steve Cottle for years. Sangorshop and I have both been to Mr. Cottle's archive and understand its value. I have been acquainted with
Sangorshop for several years, and what he says is extremely reliable. I conducted an extensive interview of Mr. Cottle plus have further written documentation. According to him, he did NOT write this article about him. He was not at all involved in the writing of it, nor was he contacted or interviewed for it. As far as I can ascertain, this is the truth. So there is no "self-promotion." As to "advertising" there's none of that, because the archive is not for the purpose of making money, and access is for free. I hope these comments are helpful. I do not claim it is the best article that could be written, but an article is better than no article. As to the notability issue, I will address that soon. --
663:- While the page is poorly done, Steve Cottle is indeed notable in the comic strip collecting and history community. Notability is defined by Knowledge (XXG) as "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded" and specifically " The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.". The peers in this case would be comic strip historians, a group that has not yet had anyone suggest this page for deletion. I don't know Steve myself (other than what I've read on his Knowledge (XXG) page), but I certainly do know the reputation of his archive - a wonderful source, and one that is indeed cited in current research. Certainly Steve doesn't have the importance of Bill Blackbeard or Allen Holtz, but to delete his article (or archives) by non-peers is like putting non-sports fans in charge of the sports articles. Sangorshop 00:51, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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questions about truthfulness and accuracy. Steve Cottle never canvassed or recruited me in the least. Rather, there seemed to be an injustice occurring, there didn't seem to be anyone else either able, available or willing, and as a long-standing
Knowledge (XXG) editor (since 2009), as someone who knew his work, and his notability, felt that I was the only person available to attempt to rectify this injustice. So I simply assigned the task to myself. I am not working for anyone and am a free agent, but I hope my efforts help ensure both a correct outcome, and help other editors understand the pertinent issues. More dealing with notability soon. --
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response to donations is promotional content. A detailed reprint of the takedown notices he has been sent, while not exactly promotional, is nonetheless not encyclopedic content. I note the illustration is non-free content with a totally inadequate justification: to illustrate his work as collector. That's absurd--we use such strips to indicate better than words can do the work of the artist or creator, It serves no point as indicating the work of a collector or the operation of an archive. I've tagged it for speedy deletion as "clearly invalid fair use tag"; if someone challenges it, it will presumably have the usual discussion before it gets deleted.--
986:- Ask the article's creator or an expert on the subject for advice on where to look for sources. - Place a {{notability}} tag on the article to alert other editors. - If the article is about a specialized field, use the {{expert-subject}} tag with a specific WikiProject to attract editors knowledgeable about that field, who may have access to reliable sources not available online."
321:: I spent about 5 minutes trying to find stuff before running off to work because someone brought the page to my attention. I did think I'd filtered out the Knowledge (XXG) clone, so that's embarrassing. But my point was the raise the rename possibility, which I've done. If I have a chance I'll try to look up better sources, but really my area of expertise is comic books and not comic strips.
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comments over the years, had come across the Cottle article on Jan. 9th and downloaded a copy and found it interesting and useful, I was one of the last persons at
Scanarama to post a comment, which wasn't to Mr. Cottle's original message, but to another member's, though I did respond to some of Mr. Cottle's questions in my reply message.
977:"No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists: The evidence must show the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition .... Sources of evidence include recognized peer reviewed publications, credible and authoritative books, reputable media sources, and other reliable sources generally."
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I also saw that others were emulated Mr. Cottle, and when some years ago, only he had any material on Chris Welkin, Planeteer, sources have since branched out, information and scans are being shared. I found an article announcing the new strip, and a book by artist Art Sansom, mentioning working on
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I asked some questions via email, Mr. Cottle requested use of a text chat program. Once I was convinced that it maintained a written transcript, I agreed to participate, and I interviewed him for several hours and developed a fully documented record, not to share here, but in case there are any
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Mr. Cottle had posted a message to
Scanarama and dailydose about the situation regarding the article, its proposed deletion, and it being initiated by his friend, e.g., samrolken. Mr. Cottle did not ask for any help, just comments, but was clearly distressed. Even though I had read many of his
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From Mr. Lortie, I also learned that there was a science fiction comic strip named Chris Welkin, Planeteer, starting in the early 1950s. Mr. Lortie apparently didn't have much information it but was seeking more. The only images we had were from scans of three covers of
Australian comic books
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Only
Sangorshop and I have any expertise in these areas, of the editors involved so far. Sangorshop's comments are entirely correct. From my detailed interview of Mr. Cottle, his expertise was very well demonstrated. From samrolken's letter, he admits lacking any interest in comics, and has no
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As to
Sangorshop, he was aware of the situation pertaining to the Steve Cottle, inasmuch as Sangorshop is a member of a Yahoo group called dailydose (that samrolken joined on March 2nd, the same date as his comments, and posted his message using his real name, and appended a copy of his private
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Hello, Starblind, you wrote "advertising, self-promotion." Only three people who have commented here (in this Afd) actually either know Steve Cottle or about him. The others apparently only from this article. The three are samrolken, who initiated this Afd, myself, and
Sangorshop. samrolken
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as advertising. He may possibly be notable, though the sources do not really seem adequate, but this article is so much devoted to advertising his services that it is radically unacceptable. a list of the comics he hosts on his site is improper promotional content. A list of the items he sends in
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So for the very first time, I could actually see what the strip looked like, read it and see what it was about and truly appeciate the art form and the treasure that Mr. Cottle had rescued from oblivion, a resource that could be read and enjoyed, and also used for first hand research for anyone to
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Even if a company was interested in preservation of the original artwork and stories, over time companies cease to exist, change hands, office space changes, and the material tends to get discards. To them, it was a business. They didn't consider it their responsibility to save the material.
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No tags were added to seek out editors with any expertise, which was sorely needed here. If the editors, such as samrolken, have no expertise regarding a presumed leader is a specialized field, and no attempt is made to solicit expertise, you have 'editing' (to delete) by a committee with no
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I added useful information. I didn't bother adding footnotes. I don't come to
Knowledge (XXG) to read footnotes, or to add them. I haven't written articles, I read them, I learn things, and I get value out of my time. Occasionally I make use of the footnotes. If someone else is interested in
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Newspaper comics, because of where they are published, tended to be discarded. There was no generalized attempt to save them and to make them available for future audiences. It is similiar to the situations of DuMont's TV shows being trashed, and the BBC wiping many early Doctor Who shows,
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Mr. Cottle never asked me to help him. I reached out to him initially for further information, doing so with a short personal email letter. Something seemed clearly amiss, because it seemed odd to all of us (all the members from the two groups who bothered to comment) that a friend of Mr.
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Extensive interviewing of Mr. Cottle, as well as a detailed review of the chat transcipt confirm that not only was samrolken a close friend, but there was clearly antagonism during the chat, which timestamp records from
Facebook and Knowledge (XXG) show that samrolken initiated the Afd while
266:- With very minor reworking, this article could be an article about the I Love Comix Archive, which I think meets the notability criteria. Some of the external links already on the page show how it is referenced by numerous blogs. It's pretty easy to find references to the archive in blogs (
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Several years ago, I obtained a copy of a document written by Arthur Lortie. Mr. Lortie is an engineer who is also interested in science fiction, including comic books and comic strips. In particular, he is fan of Flash Gordon, and has written an article about this rather well-known SF
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character, who first appeared in a newspaper strip, and later in three movie serials, a TV series, a radio show, a movie and other media. From Mr. Lortie I discovered Connie, a newspaper comic strip that eventially delved into science fiction plotlines that were quite interesting.
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According to my records, the first of these was inserted by samrolken about myself, Drhankh, the second about Sangorshop. As far as I can tell, when samrolken refers to "An editor" he is referring to himself in third-person. There is absolutely no merit to these charges.
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But there are far too many strips that were orphaned. The strip ended, wasn't as widely circulated, and with the material being dated, was considered to no longer have any value and not worthwhile to the syndicate who created and marketed it, to bother with preservation.
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Mr. Cottle was interviewed extensively and the two of them have been friends for over 15 years. In fact, samrolken's only connection with Mr. Cottle is his personal friendship. samrolken apparently has no interest in comics and no appreciation of them as an artform.
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Sangorshop replied to a member at dailydose, who wanted to post a Keep comment here (this Afd) but didn't know how. Sangorshop did reply and explained briefly how to do it. I later responded as well and shared the instructions MrX gave me (at his Talk page).
456:" claims to sell "Knowledge (XXG)" books from "Wiki content". This appears, on the surface, to be a worrying development since it could mean someone might make money from articles we have written or contributed to in good faith. One of the books offered is
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Mr. Cottle and samrolken engaged in a text chat on Facebook on the evening of Feb. 25th, during which time samrolken decided to initiate the Afd and told his friend that he was going to see to it that it would be deleted and would be gone in seven days.
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A similar fate could have occurred to newspaper comics. Mr. Cottle developed a strong appreciation for them as a true art form, and newspaper comics do have a very devoted following, and all of them agree that it's an art form worth preserving.
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archive. I focus on comic books rather than comic strips so I don't have any strip reprint collections to check and see if it gets any credits in those, but that might be worth a look when deciding whether the archive itself is a notable topic. -
304:: Of your three blog references 1) Is not a blog and is a Knowledge (XXG) mirror, 2) Doesn't mention the archive at all, someone in the blog's comments section mentions it... and 3) Doesn't cover the archive at all, just mentions it in passing.
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With the strips in hand, I was able to learn that the correct title of the strip was "Chris Welkin, Planeteer" NOT "Chris Welkin - Planeteer" as the List of newspaper comic strips A-F had previously stated for a long time, and I corrected it.
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Why is there this suspicion that the information presented here from people with true expertise is discounted rather than accepted. We do know what we tell you, and the rest of you don't know this subject area. Experts should be solicited.
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The article "Winterbotham, Russell (1904-1971)" pp.703-704 in The World Encyclopedia of Comics (Maurice Horn, ed., 1976), confirmed that established SF author R.R. Winterbotham had written the strip, but there was little description of it.
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Some libraries archived local newspapers onto microfilm and microfiche, and some newspapers, such as England's Daily Mirror, maintained records of the comics they locally published, such as Giles, which are reprinted in books.
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Steve Cottle developed one of the largest and best independent newspaper comics archive anywhere, ilovecomix, with a renowned reputation within the comics community. He is well-known, well- regarded, and well-appreciated.
836:, non-notable, advertising, self-promotion, lack of reliable sources. It's an all-you-can-eat bad article buffet. Even if his site were notable (and, as far as I can tell based on the article, it isn't) that wouldn't make
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Steve Cottle persisted with his vision, remarkable and far ahead of anyone else, and gained followers, those who understood and appreciate his vision. They helped him gather and scan newspaper comic strips.
605:"You should not create or edit articles about ... your close friends. ... You should also not write about people with whom you could reasonably be said to have an antagonistic relationship in real life."
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Real experts like Sangershop and I could probably improve it a great deal, if we were sufficiently motivated, but this artificial deadline that soon expires is unnecessary. The Afd should be withdrawn.
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Articles, like those here, for Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, are certainly good, but every article is based up memories and the original source material. There's always a first article on any subject.
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344:- I'm astonished that this article was created around Steve Cottle instead of around the ilovecomix archive. The archive itself is clearly the more notable topic. I say rename/move the article.
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It also struck me as a likely conflict of interest for samrolken, as both an editor and a close personal friend of the subject of the article, to be the person who recommends it's deletion.
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Inasmuch as samrolken's sole nexus related to this article was his friendship with the subject, and the Conflict of Interest (CoI) is clearcut and blatant, yet hidden in this Afd page
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I discovered that the user who initiated this Articles for deletion (Afd) action, samrolken -- is actually a close personal friend of the subject of the article, Steve Cottle.
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I kept tabs on the article from time to tab, and others helped flesh out the Buster Crabbe article, and later someone wrote a Captain Gallant of the Foreign Legion article.
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Sangorshop never told anyone he was going to post any Keep comments, nor that he had done so afterwards. It was a complete surprise to me. I only discovered them here.
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Elsewhere I wrote how I edited the Buster Crabbe article to add that he starred in a TV series, Captain Gallant of the Foreign Legion, nowhere mentioned in the article.
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Forbidden Planet is the most famous comic book and sci-fi related shop in London, England and has been around for many years. They mention the ilovecomix archive on
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In a nutshell, is Steve Cottle notable? His friend and the editor who initiated this Afd, has consistently said no, but he admits he's not interested in comics.
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email letter that he'd sent to Mr. Cottle, a letter that Mr. Cottle and samrolken both told me had been sent). dailydose shares old newspaper comics strip scans.
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I edited List of newspaper comic strips A-F; where is the footnote for Chris Welkin, Planeteer? Where do the years of publication come from? Are they accurate?
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For the longest time, besides what Mr. Lortie had written, I could find only two sources that verified the strip had indeed existed, but not what it was about.
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Unfortunately, it's hard to write articles when the source material no longer exists and the people who remember it (from reading or watching it) are all dead.
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Not every subject is as well-documented as it should be, but then we don't all have an infinite amount of time. A flawed article is far superior to none,
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Until one day when I got an email Steve Cottle had sent to a Yahoo group, mentioning his archive, telling us he'd moved it and how to access it, for free.
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Recently, samrolken had initiated an Afd on the article for Russell R. Winterbotham, author of the Welkin strip, an article that I had updated.
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What Steve Cottle is doing is preserving original source material, and that is invaluable to researchers, which I will shortly demonstrate. --
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There are some archives for some things, and there are some collectors with collections of certain strips, like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.
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Just because the Steve Cottle article has some flaws, doesn't mean non-experts should be deciding to discard it, as Sangershop pointed out.
491:"Grantbridge Street and Other Misadventures" is a very well liked blog for comic fans and mentions the ilovecomix archive, describing it as
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There are those of us in the comics community that truly appeciate this material and recognize it as an art form, well worth preserving.
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Just recently, after interviewing Mr. Cottle, I was able to find and download scans of this strip in good quality for the years 1951-54.
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a reasonable conclusion would be that this is simply an act of vandalism, which should be prohibited, rejected, and rapidly withdrawn.
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922:"Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Sangorshop) has been canvassed to this discussion. samrolken 17:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)"
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919:"Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Drhankh has been canvassed to this discussion. samrolken 17:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)"
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for US$ 31.39. This "American Comic Strips Before 1918" book makes 6 references to the ilovecomix archive. Notable but worrying...
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After several of us shared our thoughts on the Afd for Russell R. Winterbotham, samrolken voluntarily chose to withdraw it.
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Steve Cottle got the big, brilliant idea, an idea that NO ONE else had, to collect and preserve all newspaper comics.
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Unfortunately, samrolken, the editor who initiated this Afd, hasn't paid attention to ALL the pertinent guidelines.
623:"Bad-faith placing of non-content tags such as {afd} ... or other tags on pages that do not meet such criteria."
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I was really curious to what it was about, but I could find out very little information, including no article.
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I don't know, but I do know that someone most likely in good faith, believed the information was accurate.
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I also learned that the strip was published by the NEA Service, which later become United Media.
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What was the story line, what were the characters, what was the setting, where was it published?
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Steve Cottle has expertise in newspaper comics an comic strips and in the preservation of them.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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making them something of just somewhat distant memories of the people who saw those shows.
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I reasoned that if anyone had information or scans of this strip, it would be Mr. Cottle.
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I submit that doing likewise for this article would be in everyone's best interest. --
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There as a mistake in the title of the strip, but the strip itself proved to be real.
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367:: Can you help us establish the notability of the ilovecomix comic archive? Thanks.
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I have already pointed out how we need an article on Chris Welkin, Planeteer.
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Someone other than Mr. Cottle recognized his value and got the ball rolling.
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Steve Cottle is notable for two basic interrelated ideas and achievements.
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578:; please discuss the merits of the content, not the editors who created it.
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which shows over $ 8,000 pledged by 57 supporters achieved by March 9, 2011.
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Not only did he get the idea, he started implementing it. More to come. --
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and add actual reliable sources and remove all current sources as NON RS.
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that had apparently contained material reprinted from this U.S. strip.
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Chris Welkin, Planeteer (1952-1964) by Art Sansom and Russ Winterbotham
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Without that archive, writing anything more was virtually impossible.
251:. Unable to find any independent, reliable sources for this person. -
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Steve_Cottle
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Regarding the Steve Cottle article, it's part of a greater effort.
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collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to comics on
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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write the first sorely missing Chris Welkin, Planeteer article.
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I could find out no futher information for a very long time.
1213:"This article is supported by the Comic strips work group."
1204:"This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comics, a
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expertise and not sufficient to render a proper judgment.
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Cottle's would propose to delete the article about him.
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Inappropriate discussion of off-Wiki activity; borderline
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Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Log/2013 February 26
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I'm unable to find reliable sources to meet GNG, open to
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list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions
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writing articles or adding footnotes, they can do so.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest
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on Google Books “American comic strips before 1918”
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This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (
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43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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539:Note: This debate has been included in the
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714:: An editor has expressed a concern that
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787:Keep AND Rename ilovecomix archive
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1191:That article could use updating.
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1003:expertise. More to follow. --
1166:And sure enough, he had them.
392:: Well, there is this page at
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791:Per Andrew Lenahan below.--
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870:User:Drhankh
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666:— Preceding
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76:Steve Cottle
68:Steve Cottle
49:
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31:
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1195:the strip.
1145:%E2%80%93F
726:) has been
704:) has been
694:Sangorshop)
394:kickstarter
342:Rename/Move
264:Rename/Move
161:free images
672:Sangorshop
475:their blog
413:blog entry
323:Ixat totep
285:Ixat totep
54:Black Kite
1297:talk page
759:Insomesia
755:WP:Heyman
737:samrolken
728:canvassed
706:canvassed
545:• Gene93k
525:• Gene93k
369:samrolken
306:samrolken
272:Daily Ink
199:samrolken
37:talk page
1299:or in a
724:contribs
702:contribs
680:contribs
668:unsigned
430:Another
268:ScoopWeb
247:- Fails
120:View log
39:or in a
1271:Drhankh
1096:Drhankh
1059:Drhankh
1005:Drhankh
954:Drhankh
899:Drhankh
716:Drhankh
647:Drhankh
505:wayland
365:Comment
349:wayland
319:Comment
302:Comment
227:Snotbot
167:WP refs
155:scholar
93:protect
88:history
834:Delete
806:Delete
783:Delete
772:Delete
757:save.
751:Delete
576:OUTING
249:WP:BIO
245:Delete
218:step 3
139:Google
97:delete
50:delete
390:Reply
182:JSTOR
143:books
127:Stats
114:views
106:watch
102:links
16:<
1275:talk
1100:talk
1063:talk
1009:talk
958:talk
903:talk
872:...
817:Ched
797:talk
763:talk
741:talk
732:diff
720:talk
712:Note
698:talk
690:Note
676:talk
651:talk
561:Keep
549:talk
529:talk
509:talk
435:here
432:blog
373:talk
353:talk
327:talk
310:talk
289:talk
203:talk
175:FENS
149:news
110:logs
84:talk
80:edit
58:talk
853:bli
838:him
777:DGG
572:NPA
237:»
224:.
189:TWL
118:– (
1277:)
1102:)
1065:)
1011:)
960:)
905:)
856:nd
850:ar
847:St
844:-
823:?
820::
812:—
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722:•
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678:•
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274:,
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253:Mr
233:•
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256:X
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185:·
179:·
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164:·
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133:(
130:)
123:·
116:)
78:(
56:(
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