656:- The article says he was an influential theorist, and that current military figures use his ideas. In that case it's hard to believe that the internet would have no trace of him, except for a couple of works that seem to be mostly genealogy (a record of births, deaths and marriages). A History of Patrick County, even if it does include him, is unlikely to provide such elaborate details of his military career as this article contains. At present it would be reasonable to consider everything in the article to be completely unsourced, except possibly for his birthdate. The chance of a hoax seems to strengthen the case for delete. Even if there were a Marine officer named Paul Haygood who taught in Quantico, there is no way to tell whether what this article says about him is true. '"Paul Haygood" Quantico' gets no Google hits that have any chance of being him.
537:, however, contradicted by a pointer to the very page number where he definitely is mentioned. I quite deliberately said "maybe", "might", and "perhaps", and as things stand it is still "maybe", "might", and "perhaps". I shouldn't get too upset about the possibility until "maybe", and "might", and "perhaps" become "definitely". ☺ Note, though, that from what people are writing, it seems that no-one has read these books to see what they actually say in full. (I haven't. Have you?) But at least we've identified precisely what to check, which is more than the article's authors gave us, and found both no support from what limited excerpts from the sources we can turn up in concert thus far, and strong indications that there is little more in those sources to be had.
778:, because all the details quoted are astonishingly hard to prove or disprove... they're still astonishingly hard to prove, and we haven't been able to verify a single scrap of information beyond "Paul Haygood (b. 1889) existed". Were we to remove everything that can't be supported by a source yet found, we're left with something which doesn't even manage to imply notability.
423:, which is apparently an American colloquial expression meaning "humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong". (The disadvantage of using colloquialisms in a medium such as Knowledge (XXG) is that they may not be universally understood.) I now understand the language, but I don't understand the point intended. I
567:
contradict what I said. It may, of course, be that this individual was included in a coverage of his family which was omitted from the list in error, in which case my assertion was wrong, but that does not alter the fact that the evidence cited above does not contradict my assertion. However, perhaps
1021:
Hoax. Although Paul
Haygood was probably a real person, this lone contribution from a new account purports to be about a little-known pioneer in military counterinsurgency theory. I would expect a citation, real or fake, to a mention in a book about military science or history, or perhaps a book
720:
Well, that's my point really. I can't say if it's a hoax or not, and no, I couldn't find out who Payne's aide was either :) Permutations of 'obituary', 'Marine Corps', 'Haygood' etc yield nothing meaningful, so setting aside the difficulty of proving a negative, on current information even if the
593:
On a more important point, no I haven't seen the books themselves; hence my need to refer to the list of families covered. Of course it would be better if someone could actually see copies of the books, rather than rely on what we can pick up at a distance. However, since the sources seem to be
215:. I've been hunting around for sources on this guy for the last 20+ minutes, since I came across the discussion at ANI, and I have found absolutely nothing to verify the existence of any counterinsurgency expert by this name. Unless someone comes up with something, I'd think it has to go.--
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here, which would prove the hoax assertion quite conclusively. (That's one of the reasons that I went looking for who the aide was. It seemed one of the easiest claims to find a refutation for.) I know that I've looked for such sources, and I don't doubt that others here have, too. The
393:
The work by John
Bennett Boddie definitely exists, and was given the correct title in the citation. Volume 1 was published by the Genealogical Publishing Co. of Baltimore, in 1966 as the citation said. It was republished by Clearfield in 2009, and Amazon has it in stock as
509:
Yes, so there is evidence that someone of the name existed, born in the given year, and (depending on which source you follow) may or may not have been born on the same day or in the same month. However, is there any reliable source which confirms that this Paul
Haygood had
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There seems to be a pretty solid consensus for deletion. Nobody has argued to keep the article. Even if the article is not a hoax, nobody has found any support anywhere for anything in the article except the existence of a man of this name born in this year and
351:
exist, but does not list any family by the name of
Haygood. All considered, this looks suspiciously like an attempt to make it look as though there are good sources when ther in fact aren't. I shall remove these highly dubious references. The other reference is
751:, if it's been digitized at all, or in hard copy accessible only the old-fashioned way by travel, libraries, books, etc. If the content of the article were true, I would still expect to have found some more traces of the man's long lifetime of work. Perhaps
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in common with the one described in the article? (On a trivial note, if "You perhaps should make preparations" is intended to refer to the nonsense about eating crow, then why? My doubting the existence of the claimed sources is not contradicted by finding
747:'s archives have references to the class of 1910, his name doesn't appear. And similar results from locale, geneology, military history, etc. searches. Part of the problem for someone deceased in 1941 is that much information is likely contained on the
673:
The article makes some assertions of notability that, if true, shouldn't be too hard to prove (given the name-dropping and positions involved). That no such proofs apparently exist mean this article can never get over the notability bar, hoax or not.
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exist" (including emphasis), but that it "does not list any family by the name of
Haygood". Uncle G's comment does not contradict either part of that; I agree that there may be crow to be eaten, but I am not planning to eat it.
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and which comprises "a 470 page study of the county, with chapters on settlement, communities, churches, schools, businesses, industries, and county's participation in military service" as well as "Sketches of many early
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484:(Katie-Prince Ward Esker. Gateway Press. 1984). It has him marrying his second wife in Honolulu, Territory of Hawaii, in 1922. But it also states that he lived there at one point, employed by Coca Cola.
706:, independently of one another, for any sources, so we can assert unverifiability with quite a good degree of confidence. It's a good idea of Arxiloxos' to give the WikiProject a tap on the shoulder.
621:
The deal with these sources, is none of them appears to amount to much more than genological databases; they seem to report mostly marriages and employment records, but do not seem to be anywhere near
1075:"but notes taken on his lectures... as well as short essays and memorandums he had prepared for the Marine Corps were gathered and studied by a number of young scholars of counterinsurgency."
1156:, both for "Paul Haygood" and separately for "class of 1910." There were no results for Paul Haygood (for any year), and the 1910 roster did not include any name even vaguely similar. --
277:. I'm going for hoax here. Too many names for Paul Haygood to do anything with it - narrowing down to resources about this man, I was unable to find anything that connected at all. --
343:, with no author's name, publishing detatils, or anything else. I have searched and can find no evidence for the existence of any publication by this title. Another reference given is
121:
1061:-- I agree this is almost certainly a hoax. Even if it weren't a hoax, there are no references. But I strongly disagree with the assertion in the nomination that the article fails
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article is all factual, without sources (let alone reliable ones) I can't see it meeting the GNG. Others at
Milhist may well have more information, but I've certainly drawn a blank.
946:) edited only on 11 September, mostly on this article; added a db-hoax tag with the summary "this is all made up" but took it off, added db-person and prod tags which were reverted
814:
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did exist, and our article on it asserts it showed the success of air power in cointerinsurgency -- the opposite conclusion that this article claims its hero reached.
702:
we can say at the moment is that this content is wholly unverifiable beyond the name and birthdate. But at least we'll have had a whole lot of editors look, and look
154:
419:
If the reference to "Residents of
Patrick County" was a mangled attempt to refer to "History of Patrick County" then clearly it is not a good reference. I looked up
1095:
I wonder whether the hoaxer is a student at the Marine Corps
Command and Staff College? If this material were verifiable it would require an editorializectomy.
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Without wishing to be unfriendly, I may say that Uncle G's capacity for continually misreading what I have written is impressive. I said that J.B. Boddie's
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little more than lists of births, marriages, etc, they could scarcely indicate notability of the subject anyway, whatever they say about Paul
Haygood.
1022:
about
General Petraeus, but the source is a locally published book called "Residents of Patrick County"? Gimme a break. Too stupid to be believed.
689:
the aide was to Frederick Huff Payne in 1930, whether this person or some other. Were you? A fair few of the things stated here are quite hard to
1078:
879:), the original author, edited only on this subject, and only on 21 July except for one return on 9 August to add a paragraph about Haygood to
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The historical society appears to be real. I can imagine if someone gave them a call to verify a couple details, they might be happy to do it
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If this were not a hoax we would find traces of these influential essays and memoranduums. I was going to cite the unverifiability of the
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is this Knowledge (XXG) article. This too looks dubious to me, but for now I will give it the benefit of the doubt and leave it in.
743:. I also drew a blank trying every way I could think of to locate electronically available resources on this person. Even though
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855:- at best, unverifiable. There is circumstantial supporting evidence this is a hoax from the article's edit history, with an
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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by the name of Haygood". (This was based on seeing a list of the families covered.) I am now told that an
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The abovementioned list him as marrying Lulu Helm and Loretta Fitzgerald. Paul Haygood, born 1889-
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author and several single-day editors (SDAs). Those who have done more than maintenance edits are:
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to a user talk page), vandalism, and personal attack until eventually the account was blocked.
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You perhaps should make preparations. Paul Haygood, born 1889-07-14, is listed on page 303 of
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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The three 22 July editors were probably friends of the original hoaxer, mucking about.
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I think we're in a bit of a bind here - whilst we can't say for sure the article is a
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doesn't check out, by the way. I've just managed to unearth the publication date of
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in a last-ditch effort to see if anyone can verify (or definitively refute) this.--
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tells us "Notability requires verifiable evidence". It is not possible to satisfy
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625:. Having ones name mentioned in a reliable source does not mean one passes the
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as another clue this was a hoax. It turns out this institution does exists.
795:- removal of questioned sources leaves this with nothing meriting notability.
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362:"Residents of Patrick County" "The Patrick County Historical Society"
356:. The Patrick County Historical Society certainly exists, but the
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Your stating that this person isn't mentioned anywhere in Boddie
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1065:. If we believed the article was accurate is would comply with
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we should both call a truce on this: it is really off-topic.
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one of the publications of Patrick County Historical Society
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in my comment above that the work by John Bennett Boddie "
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258:- Seems to be a hoax, unable to find anything solid.
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will turn up someone with leads to good references.
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1123:without verifiable sources; the article certainly
980:)'s other edits varied among trivial (e.g. adding
563:by the name of Haygood is mentioned there, which
345:Boddie, John Bennett. Southside Virginia Families
235:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Military history
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1183:). No further edits should be made to this page.
480:and Loretta Fitzgerald, is listed on page 81 of
815:list of Military-related deletion discussions
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404:There might be some crow to be eaten, here.
354:"Paul Haygood". Residents of Patrick County
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930:) edited only on 22 July (vandalism only)
914:) edited only on 22 July (vandalism only)
1152:even to the simplest detail. I queried
813:: This debate has been included in the
494:. It was published in 1999, not 1984.
1079:Marine Corps Command and Staff College
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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1044:on this day. Need any more be said?
322:fails WP:BIO I came up with zip. --
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1154:VMI's Historical Roster Database
739:Appears that the article fails
629:, the vital bit missing is the
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492:History of Patrick County
384:History of Patrick County
1176:Please do not modify it.
898:) edited only on 22 July
886:The Super Cool Amazement
32:Please do not modify it.
838:: Hoax or non-notable.
195:. Also, possible hoax?
1150:Delete as unverifiable
233:I've posted a note at
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968:New Nothing
934:New Nothing
631:substantial
623:substantial
421:Eating crow
386:, which is
155:free images
1097:Pink's War
797:Buckshot06
741:notability
704:quite hard
658:EdJohnston
561:individual
519:sources.)
478:Lula Helms
391:families".
1024:Mandsford
840:Joe Chill
753:Arxiloxos
724:EyeSerene
677:EyeSerene
239:Arxiloxos
217:Arxiloxos
1101:Geo Swan
1083:Geo Swan
978:contribs
944:contribs
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912:contribs
896:contribs
877:contribs
780:Shimgray
749:deep web
565:does not
448:Volume 2
122:View log
1129:WP:NOTE
1121:WP:NOTE
1117:WP:NOTE
1114:Comment
1067:WP:NOTE
1063:WP:NOTE
1042:perhaps
1037:Comment
1006:Ejosse1
867:Petie J
708:Uncle G
671:Delete.
539:Uncle G
496:Uncle G
460:Uncle G
406:Uncle G
347:. This
307:Crossmr
300:comment
193:WP:NOTE
161:WP refs
149:scholar
95:protect
90:history
1071:WP:VER
1059:Delete
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1002:Delete
953:JohnCD
853:Delete
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793:Delete
737:Delete
691:refute
654:Delete
636:Jayron
619:Delete
557:family
337:Delete
320:Delete
275:Delete
256:Delete
213:Delete
191:Fails
133:Google
99:delete
46:delete
1127:fail
918:Napth
762:Geoff
517:other
380:maybe
291:stuff
264:neuro
176:JSTOR
137:books
116:views
108:watch
104:links
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289:and
287:Rawr
243:talk
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198:Cirt
169:FENS
143:news
112:logs
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857:SPA
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