Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/PlaneShift (video game)

848:. PlaneShift has been a major influence to all free games in existance today, being one of the first to start the "free" genre, it has changed the life of hundreds of people, who contributed to the development and to the creation of a free virtual life world. It is today one of the very few, if not the only open source mmorpg engine with all needed features to make a real game. In additions there has been plenty of notable collaborations, and mentions which are in the page. Just search for PlaneShift on google, and you will find hundreds of sites where you can download the game. It has been reviewing in every single mmorpg web site, and in most magazines. If you are going to delete this article you will have to delete half of the articles present in wikipedia. -- 1878:

validity of this article I believe. As to signing over your copyrights for art you contribute to PlaneShift, that is true. And personally I would not do it for my own games that I create. However, you still have the freedom to contribute and all art contributors know this license in advance very well. They don't step into this and then suddenly realize they cannot use their art in something else. The license and what they are allowed to do with it is made very clear to everyone. Also this fact is very well known in the community. There has been sufficient coverage and hype on this topic already.

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not, as such google seems to think its notable. Again on warcry check the author "Thomas -Mystery- Valley posted on 29 October 2003 3:52 am" look at his other articles, not submitted by PS or AB. Also your lack of access to TUX does not make it non-notable you have to prove that its not a notable source. Also web3d.org and csc.com are secondary sources, even if they use primary sources to get some of there information. If they are not secondary sources, then there is no such thing. Everything gets its information from primary sources, then gets read and regurgitated by secondary sources. --

478:. It did indeed conclude with "no consensus". Much of the discussion there was argument about what Knowledge (XXG)'s policies and guidelines say, rather than about whether this article had reliable sources. If I wade through all that to look at the relevant parts of the discussion, I find that the "keep" arguments are to a large extent based on "I know that there are reliable sources" without indicating what they are. When links to "sources" were provided they were mostly to trivial mentions, unreliable sources, or sources not independent of the subject, and often to sources failing by 1901:. I believe the game's few sources are because of misleading publicity. The game itself is not open source and it seems as if these magazines all bring attention to it under the guise of open-ness. I don't believe the few sources qualify it for inclusion; and, I believe the sources that mention it along with words 'open', or 'gpl' and don't shed light on the proprietary license used for the actual game are dishonest at best. The game has never had a production release, and has stagnated for a decade without any societal contribution to the game-component. 1450: 120: 31: 569:. I see there is some coverage on gaming websites, including a few news article's, and i don't doubt the 500.000 player claim which indicates this is at least more then a kitchen project. However, searches don't come up with anything that i would normally accept as a reliable source. For something in development 6 years already it received quite little press coverage. It would seem to be 723:

user made another, accounts that were created without ever downloading the game (or downloaded and failed to run), people trying the game, leaving, then coming back to check it out and forgetting their old passwords, as well as a number of other factors that inflate the number of accounts far beyond the number of actual people who have tried the game.

2175:. From what I can see, at least two sources already cited in the article provide reliable and independent coverage, and are sufficient to establish it's notability. Other considerations such as the game being in alpha stage, the article being edited by the game's creator or the game not being free can not be a basis for a deletion. 1807:. I think PlaneShift is a very important Open Source MMORPG game. As far as I know there is no other OSS MMORPG game of this size in existance. Perhaps this alone does not qualify as inclusion in wikipedia but then I wonder why articles about similar (but less advanced) projects as WorldForge are not considered for deletion then? 483:

However, I sympathise with the administrator who worked through the great text wall in that discussion, and I do not criticise him/her for their decision, as it is very difficult to see the overall picture in such a mass. I think, in fact, that the whole situation was well summarised by Vassyana in the comment

788:, edited the data last. Also as said, have a dev query the server for up to date data. Of course, I assume you could claim that is also unreliable data as it is not from a 3rd party. Look, I don't really care if PlaneShift is deleted here or not. I simply thought I would shed some light on this arbitrary 1877:

Indeed, PlaneShift as a game is not really open. As to Open Source, I'm in doubt on that. The engine itself is surely Open Source (it is GPL) but the art is not open. On the other hand the art is also not source. So all source that there is is actually open. But anyway. This has little to do with the

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Not true. Even if published to a notable source, it's up to the discretion of the editors to judge if a source is a reliable source or not. It's not only about where it's published but who published it. If a source is disputed it is brought to the attention of other editors to establish if the source

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Did you read the article you linked to? "Existing editors should act fairly, civily, not bite newcomers, and remember everyone was new at some time." I've edited before without an account, and participating in a AfD finally prompted me to register. I should not have to explain that. Would you like to

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to discredit the article and the game. He is deleting content since weeks, despite the work of plenty of other users to add useful references, information and completness to the article. You cannot find a single good addition from him to that page, just banners, removals of references, deletiion of

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as there still seems to be some confusion about the license of the game, I'd like to add some clarification: while it's true that the major part of the game's data and art lies under a proprietary license, it's not true that *only* the source is GPL'd. there's also a minimalistic set of data and art

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See the issue is that if I hadn't said it was mine, it would be reliable, that's part of the issue. How do you and everyone else know what was submitted to other sites via the "Submit a game" (that i have yet to see on any site) button? If the text is IDENTICAL that is another story, however most of

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I was really excited when I heard about Planeshift, several years ago, but I was under the impression that the project was dead. All the sources being cited here (other than blogs and the primary source) are out-dated. If the notability was in question back then... Are there any new articles done on

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I hope that brings things into perspective. If you want more current data, you can ask the developers to do another query. Note that the above figures include people who register more than one account (some very active players register 10 or more), accounts that never got an email activation and the

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All sources provided that I have seen are trivial mentions and user-submitted articles & reviews. ... Despite the vigorous efforts to dig up sources, not a single non-trivial reference with appropriate editorial oversight and a reputation for fact-checking has been provided. Despite the vigorous

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Knowledge (XXG) clearly has an anti-PlaneShift bias for some reason I just can't fathom. This is a very important project, the only open source MMO of any repute, and it has over 500,000 players worldwide. You're telling me that's not notable? Ever hear of a little magazine called PC Gamer? They

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stage. Few, if any, secondary sources and much of the editing to this article has been done by one or more of the game's developers. I am particularly interested in this game genre, especially since it is available for OS X, but had never heard of this game until I came across an unblock request for

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Maintenance Templates are there to bring light to the fact that the article has problems. It has nothing to do with the article subject, it is simply so other Knowledge (XXG) editors know there is a problem with the page. If you fix the problems you're more then welcome to remove them. Furthermore,

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and wrongly used number of 'players'. If a yellow dog is sitting next to a gas station, it is not notable just because 1,000 people a day drive by that spot and see it, or even pet it. If it was a juggling dog with two heads, now that would be notable. Find more reasons why PlaneShift is a juggling

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of these criteria. One of the sources given was to an online copy of an advertising poster for the game! (I kid you not.) I think that rather than "no consensus" the conclusion should have been "among those actually arguing in accordance with Knowledge (XXG) policy there is consensus for deletion".

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That is not to say, however, that all of the "keep"s are a result of this canvassing. The "delete"s put across good arguments and successfully discounted some of the sources and arguments provided. After discounting the arguments I did not consider strong enough, I arrived at a consensus to delete,

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the others can be questioned i suppose, although how can you prove that they were submitted by them? the ones with C&P text can be proved that way, the rest please inform me of how you know. Also what about the google talk's invite? while the talk itself was done by a developer the invite was

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or so minor that no one ever heard from it. Even so, i keep my vote at neutral. The article had reliable coverage independent of the subject and a claim to notability, but the "Significant" part is lacking here. As said there is some coverage on gaming websites, but most of those seem similar to

391:: Article lacks any real sources. Previous AfD was keep and no concensus several years ago on the grounds that it would be properly sourced. Article hasn't changed any since then and is only having more trivial information added by creator of the game. No real player base or signs of notability. 1679:

Is there anything anywhere about being notable by mass minor notability rather then one major notable post? Sure someone could be paid to write an article on planeshift but would that make it more notable? PS: I did a thesis on it, does that count if its online? Personally I think that its not

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Going by the above, the two votes for deletion concern the sources cited within the article. Granted, the references are almost entirely derived from the subject's own website, but since there are reliable third-party sources that have not been included, I think the article should be kept and

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PlaneShift (the game) is not Open Source, only the gaming engine is. The same could be said about Quake 3 -- the fact that the user base of this game does not understand this is rather disgusting. Donations to this game require you to sign over your copyrights. You create a rule, a map, or a

1937:: The game is not open, if you believe the game is open and not proprietary (as compared to the engine) then you should strongly do some research before casting a vote. Start by reading the article in question. I only say that because at least 3 people have gotten this wrong. 506:

The situation has not progressed from how it was when the last AfD took place, as described above. The sources cited in the article are almost not independent, some of them are unreliable (blog post etc) and some are trivial mentions. No evidence at all of notability.

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If your thesis is vetted by a thesis committee and then published by your university, then by Knowledge (XXG) standards it is a reliable source, and you should definitely add a citation to the article. Who wrote it and whether or not it is available online is

1602:"Significant coverage" according to wikipedia "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." It is one fourth of the article, sure it is not as long as the others, however it is a main topic. 77:. This was a tricky one to review, as there is an overwhelming majority in favour of keeping this article. However, many of the arguments I have reviewed are substantially lacking in substance, or relevance; furthermore, many have come from 1238:. The last AfD was concluded with a keep only with the expectation that more sources would follow. There have been no new articles added that are not: trivial mentions, blog/forum posts, or download mirrors with a copy-paste description. 1845:

character, and you want it used in the game? What do you think about losing the ability to ever give that creation to another open source game? Yes, this is the PlaneShift way. With this said, this should have nothing to do with vote.

81:. While their arguments have been given due consideration, many do not provide the policy-based arguments or sources that we require, and therefore some "keep"s are asserting reliable sources which are simply not considered reliable. 1310:. Before I vote, I have a question. The article references what appears to be three independent reliable sources: one in Linux Format, another one in TUX Magazine, and one more in Spanish Linux Magazine. Why the nomination then? 337: 447:

Saying PlaneShift has or has had 500,000 players is an outright misleading lie. It simply has had that many accounts created. That in no way equates to number of actual players or even game downloads, as seen in my comment

2156:. I've reviewed the list of references now, and I this this game meets the standards of notability. I agree it's not a top notch game, but from my point of view the sources mentioned are enough to express a 'keep' vote. -- 1714:

the time it is just smiler. If two people write about a yellow dog is them both saying its a yellow dog incorrect? Personally I can only think of so many ways to write that so that it doesn't sound exactly the same. --

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Because many of them are not published by the staff of the magazine/game site/whatever. They are sites where anyone can submit a review. Just because they are on a notable site doesn't make them reliable sources.

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This point is not valid at all. The openess has nothing to do with the request of deletion. I can easily argue that PlaneShift is more open than the 99% of the games in existance, because 99% are closed source.

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I believe that there are a sufficient number of reliable third-party sources to demonstrate notability, although I'd agree that the present state of the article is disappointing. The list may not be exhaustive:

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Your data is not sourced, and so not reliable. Anyway if that data was true, it shows a turnover of 3632 players in one week and 1021 in one day, which is surely more than needed to say it has lot of players.

1959:(check out art and trunk/src/server/database). While those may not reflect the data used by the official servers, they're still sufficient to start off your own server and explore the basic game mechanics. 2194:. The ohloh sites main point is "Ohloh Analysis Summary" that's them saying THEY looked at it and verified it, think of it as a seal of approval. Also you just said there are 2 sources that fully meet the 666:

press releases. There are quite a few mentions of the game in reliable sources, some not even gaming related, but i cannot seem to find any source that is more then a mention. In other words: Neutral.

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Your point is not valid as you are the creator of the game and have a major conflict of interest here. It does have something to do with the AfD as it helps establish if sources are valid or not.

1470: 598:. From what I see, 500,000 is the alleged number of all registered accounts. The number of actual players is probably less than one-tenth of that. According to the official website, the game only 475: 295: 2135:

if you have a concern with my editing or my conduct, bring it up on the administrator's noticeboard, this is not the place. This page is for the discussion of deleting/not deleting this article.

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Did you read the links that explain the problems with those arguments? At any rate, I am INTENSELY skeptical that this is among the first free games ever released. Or that "free" is a "genre". -

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Out of the above sources, only the first looks to be written by an editor, the rest look like press releases and are on sites where anyone can press the "add game" button and submit a game.

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Because some people got banned for flaming Planeshift so they go around and flame everywhere else -note: apparently this is derogatory? Id be more then happy to prove what was said here. --

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Your point is not valid. Are you saying that only open projects can stay on Knowledge (XXG)? The openess of the project has nothing to do with the validity to keep the article or not. --

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sources with significant coverage. Gamedev's coverage is very superficial; GiantBomb's page is fully editable; and the rest of the sites only provide basic listing descriptions like "

1019:: The majority of these sources, even though published by reliable sources, are contributed by the PlaneShift creator and/or PlaneShift developers, making them still primary sources. 331: 127: 1753:

Note however that for purposes of establishing notability a source should also be independent of the subject, which may or may not be the case with your thesis. You can read up on

1462: 278: 1442:. I personally confirmed that the TUX magazine has significant coverage of the subject. I don't have a direct link to the article but you can take a look at its text 1185:

It shows the current release, the date for the release, as gives a brief description. Also considering its a forums for windows 7 doesn't that show that its current?

283: 2087: 378: 1042: 40: 577:. Ill remain neutral for now, as i simply cannot decide if the amount of trivial coverage, awards and game size outweigh the lack of any "Real" references. 2216:- first of all, the references will need vetting for reliability. It's pretty indiscriminate and there are a lot of sites linked to that simply do not pass 251: 246: 523:

I strongly disagree, a list of new sources have been added in the last week, including international collaborations. Lot more can be found on the net. --

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piece of significant coverage I'm happy to accept (About.com). I'm not completely convinced by OMGN or Warcry, I'll have to investigate further later.

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You gave a link to this AfD and asked users to "Join the Fight". You didn't say "Hey let's add sources to the article and improve its quality."

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What's your evidence of those claims? Why you challenges independent studies and other web sites? If that's not valid, then nothing is. --

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Those are not valid arguments? That's ridiculous, I'm out of here. You make this place a mess. Do whatever you want with the article. --

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sure seem to think PlaneShift is notable. The German edition of PC Gamer anyway. In conclusion, this AFD is a clear violation of

1786:-based code and no actual coverage of the game itself. From these four sources, only linux-magazine.es seems to be acceptable. — 622:

players, which is a lot different than the total audience. PlaneShift has a turnover of players in one day of several hundreds. --

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1) how do you know he is the creator 2) his point is still valid regardless. 3) he isnt the creator Talad gave up on wikipedia.

2056: 1829: 549:. That is - for me - the entire issue with this article. There are mentions here and there, but nothing really substantional. 545:

it would be no problem at all to add them to the article right? Even so, most sources added last week are trivial mentions or

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isn't determined by something's quantity of members, but rather by the quality of the subject's verifiable, reliable sources.

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Of course jorrit understands that, he wrote the engine after all, and is a major developer on its primary user, PlaneShift.

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appear to be sufficient to establish notability. The awards won, according to the article, also establish notability.-

1375:? Seems more like asking people to fix a problem. If sources are cleaned up then there seems no reason to delete it? 369: 1169:

I fail to see where the article is in that source. Please point it out, all I see is a release and game description.

661:*Sigh*. No, the "500.000 users" part was not a part of my "neutral" vote, but used to state the project is at least 1621: 1102:

90+% of those are released by blizzard, reviews on game sites or whatnot. I say we request that WOW gets removed.

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If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a

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To give a bit of reference on this '500,000' number, this is a result of a server query on February 11, 2007

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PlaneShift is a free 3D MMORPG, and features 12 different races, AI controlled NPCs, and an evolving world

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Again, you are confusing number of players with number of accounts created. The data was copied from

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sources. According to the Linux Format's admin, their coverage of the subject was fairly limited. —

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appears to be a blog entry. The GameDev article only has a couple of repetitive paragraphs on the

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endorsement of a fanbase, there seems to be little to no real-world notability for the project.

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.

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Total characters used less than an hour : 141557 (four characters can be made per account)

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is the only user that's continuosly adding banners (last one few minutes ago) to the

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However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to

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http://www.warcry.com/news/view/58063-Free-MMOG-Planeshift-breaks-100k-Players--

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may be considered unreliable by some: open to debate. Contains some information.

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may be considered unreliable by some: open to debate. Contains some information.

1275: 1069: 922: 862: 849: 808: 739: 623: 524: 967: 958:. its the only truely free MMORPG i know of, as for no reliable sources, # ^ 1461:

but it's not clear whether it can be considered a reliable source (e.g., see

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one of the editors, so I don't think it meets the standards of notability. —

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and then was blocked because they issued what appears to be a legal threat

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Again, Gamespot has no significant coverage of the subject. The review in

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http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/planeshift/index.html?tag=result;title;0

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and believe this decision is an appropriate use of admin discretion.

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By the way, thanks for the friendly contribution tag. Here's yours.

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and does not assert any notability. Thanks for the clarification.

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.

2079:. Also, Xyz123 stated that Lucap1978 is not who they claim to be 476:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/PlaneShift (computer game)

1453:)) appears to be acceptable. There is also this overly excited 1473:

don't show significant coverage of the subject by independent

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http://www.windows7download.com/win7-planeshift/cnztmxui.html

1506:, which is a reliable industry insider, alongside Gamasutra. 145:(agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, 2073:

Note that Lucap1978 vandalized the article in a sneaky way

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Game has been in development since 2004, but is still in

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among Knowledge (XXG) contributors. Knowledge (XXG) has

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Maby not as many as you would like, but they are there

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I'm sorry but these are not valid arguments. Please see

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Asking users to clean up the page and add sources is

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https://www.linux-magazine.es/issue/18/Planeshift.pdf

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Accounts created in the last 30 days never used: 7614

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WP:Articles for deletion/PlaneShift (computer game)

358: 1757:if you want to understand the requirements better. 1099: 970:^ a b c TUX December 2006 Issue 20, Pg 60 # ^ 701:Total characters active more than ten hours: 9416 1680:acceptable to use your own writing as a source.-- 68:). No further edits should be made to this page. 2251:). No further edits should be made to this page. 296:Articles for deletion/PlaneShift (computer game) 1043:list of video game related deletion discussions 964:http://assets1.csc.com/lef/downloads/1142_1.pdf 429:your hands off my Planeshift, Knowledge (XXG)! 1956:available under the GPL on the svn repository 1203:It does do that, but it does not qualify as a 1345:: AfD has been canvassed on the game's forum 1289:defend yourself not being a sock puppet now? 165:Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected 8: 1648:. As pointed out by others, the sources at 707:Accounts created in the last 30 days: 18103 968:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKSYJYV_RGs 704:Accounts active in the last 30 days: 14787 139:regarding the encyclopedia's content, and 713:Active accounts older than 30 days: 4297 474:The previous AfD referred to above is at 1041:: This debate has been included in the 960:http://www.omgn.com/news.php?Item_ID=300 159:on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. 2220:. However, trawling through them I see 293: 45:For an explanation of the process, see 2109:: I just would like to point out that 1446:. The review by Linux Magazine Spain ( 716:Accounts active in the last week: 3632 719:Active accounts in the last day: 1021 18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion 7: 1512:has news articles, screenshots, etc. 292: 1412:That one line was removed happy? 24: 1151:I added a few new ones including 825:I suggest you read this as well. 2059:) yesterday, didn't you notice? 118: 29: 47:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion review 41:deletion review on 2010 April 8 1550:improved rather than deleted. 1524:has details, screenshots, etc. 1518:has details, screenshots, etc. 600:has hundreds of active players 1: 1729:is a reliable source or not. 155:on the part of others and to 1465:). The rest of the links on 694:Accounts never used: 112114 690:Total PS accounts: 340,000+ 1504:Brief review at GameDev.net 1100:http://en.wikipedia.org/WoW 2283: 1671:20:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1633:19:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1598:17:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1580:17:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1558:17:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1536:provides some information. 1487:17:01, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1428:17:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1408:17:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1391:17:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1365:16:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1336:16:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1320:16:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1284:23:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1254:No edits except this page 1248:17:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1219:16:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1181:16:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1165:16:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1145:16:04, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1118:15:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1095:15:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1078:15:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1059:15:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 1031:15:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 994:15:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 931:16:04, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 915:15:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 858:15:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 675:15:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 653:15:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 632:15:04, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 612:15:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 586:14:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 558:15:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 533:15:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 517:14:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 497:14:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 439:13:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 403:13:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 383:13:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC) 2234:16:13, 3 April 2010 (UTC) 2209:18:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC) 2185:10:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC) 2166:01:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC) 2147:21:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2128:20:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2092:21:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2069:19:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2040:18:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2020:18:24, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 2004:18:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1969:18:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1947:15:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1928:18:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1911:15:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1888:17:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1873:15:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1855:15:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1817:11:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1796:16:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1770:15:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1741:14:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1724:14:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1709:12:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1694:No, your thesis is not a 1690:05:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1620:here is another good one 1299:15:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 1047:Search video game sources 945:03:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 803:12:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 748:03:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 733:01:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 618:The game has hundreds of 541:. If there are plenty of 459:01:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC) 104:19:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC) 2267:Pages at deletion review 2244:Please do not modify it. 1234:. I'm in agreement with 793:dog, not a gas station. 61:Please do not modify it. 2115:PlaneShift (video game) 1467:PlaneShift (video game) 974:# ^ a b c (Spanish) 235:PlaneShift (video game) 197:; accounts blocked for 167:single-purpose accounts 137:policies and guidelines 110:PlaneShift (video game) 79:single-purpose accounts 782:Vengeance/Keith Fulton 291:AfDs for this article: 1986:few or no other edits 1834:few or no other edits 1270:few or no other edits 1008:few or no other edits 875:few or no other edits 821:few or no other edits 768:few or no other edits 573:enough, but it lacks 1988:outside this topic. 1836:outside this topic. 1272:outside this topic. 1010:outside this topic. 877:outside this topic. 823:outside this topic. 786:Server Engine Leader 770:outside this topic. 594:Let's not fall for 149:by counting votes. 128:not a majority vote 2045:yeah, they banned 1562:None of these are 537:Then i would say: 73:The result was 2030:comment added by 1989: 1837: 1650:linux-magazine.es 1608:comment added by 1418:comment added by 1381:comment added by 1273: 1191:comment added by 1108:comment added by 1061: 1011: 984:comment added by 878: 824: 771: 636:My point is that 230: 229: 226: 153:assume good faith 53: 52: 39:was subject to a 2274: 2246: 2144: 2139: 2042: 2017: 2012: 1971: 1819: 1738: 1733: 1706: 1701: 1668: 1617: 1595: 1590: 1556: 1552:Mephistophelian 1516:StrategyInformer 1430: 1405: 1400: 1393: 1362: 1357: 1255: 1216: 1211: 1200: 1178: 1173: 1120: 1092: 1087: 1037: 1028: 1023: 997: 996: 899:WP:LOTSOFSOURCES 860: 806: 753: 672: 583: 555: 543:reliable sources 400: 395: 363: 362: 348: 286: 276: 258: 224: 212: 196: 180: 161: 131:, but instead a 122: 115: 102: 99: 90: 63: 33: 32: 26: 2282: 2281: 2277: 2276: 2275: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2257: 2256: 2255: 2249:deletion review 2242: 2142: 2137: 2025: 2015: 2010: 1736: 1731: 1704: 1699: 1696:reliable source 1666: 1603: 1593: 1588: 1551: 1413: 1403: 1398: 1376: 1373:Meat Puppetting 1360: 1355: 1351:Meat Puppetting 1214: 1209: 1205:reliable source 1186: 1176: 1171: 1103: 1090: 1085: 1026: 1021: 979: 668: 579: 551: 547:primary sources 398: 393: 305: 301: 282: 249: 233: 214: 202: 186: 170: 157:sign your posts 113: 97: 88: 86: 66:deletion review 59: 37:This discussion 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2280: 2278: 2270: 2269: 2259: 2258: 2254: 2253: 2237: 2236: 2211: 2188: 2187: 2169: 2168: 2150: 2149: 2131: 2130: 2111:User:SpigotMap 2103: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1950: 1949: 1931: 1930: 1914: 1913: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1875: 1858: 1857: 1839: 1838: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1798: 1780:WarCry Network 1775: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1758: 1751: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1743: 1716:71.107.198.239 1674: 1673: 1654:Warcry Network 1642: 1641: 1640: 1639: 1638: 1637: 1636: 1635: 1583: 1582: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1537: 1531: 1525: 1519: 1513: 1507: 1498: 1497: 1490: 1489: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1368: 1367: 1339: 1338: 1323: 1322: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1301: 1251: 1250: 1228: 1227: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1222: 1221: 1155:for example -- 1148: 1147: 1128: 1127: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1063: 1062: 1034: 1033: 1013: 1012: 952: 951: 950: 949: 948: 947: 918: 917: 880: 879: 842: 841: 840: 839: 838: 837: 836: 835: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 750: 720: 717: 714: 711: 708: 705: 702: 699: 696: 691: 688: 687: 686: 678: 677: 656: 655: 615: 614: 589: 588: 563: 562: 561: 560: 520: 519: 500: 499: 468: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 461: 406: 405: 366: 365: 300: 299: 298: 290: 289: 288: 284:AfD statistics 228: 227: 123: 112: 107: 71: 70: 54: 51: 50: 44: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2279: 2268: 2265: 2264: 2262: 2252: 2250: 2245: 2239: 2238: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2219: 2215: 2212: 2210: 2206: 2202: 2201:76.90.200.238 2197: 2193: 2190: 2189: 2186: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2171: 2170: 2167: 2163: 2159: 2158:64.119.157.82 2155: 2152: 2151: 2148: 2145: 2140: 2133: 2132: 2129: 2125: 2121: 2116: 2112: 2108: 2105: 2104: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2081: 2078: 2075: 2072: 2071: 2070: 2066: 2062: 2061:72.65.133.240 2058: 2055: 2052: 2048: 2044: 2043: 2041: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2023: 2022: 2021: 2018: 2013: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2001: 1997: 1993: 1987: 1983: 1979: 1975: 1970: 1966: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1953: 1952: 1951: 1948: 1944: 1940: 1936: 1933: 1932: 1929: 1925: 1921: 1916: 1915: 1912: 1908: 1904: 1900: 1897: 1896: 1889: 1885: 1881: 1876: 1874: 1870: 1866: 1865:72.65.133.240 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1856: 1852: 1848: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1840: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1818: 1814: 1810: 1806: 1803: 1802: 1797: 1793: 1789: 1785: 1784:Crystal Space 1781: 1777: 1776: 1771: 1767: 1763: 1759: 1756: 1752: 1748: 1742: 1739: 1734: 1727: 1726: 1725: 1721: 1717: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1707: 1702: 1697: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1687: 1683: 1682:76.90.200.238 1678: 1677: 1676: 1675: 1672: 1669: 1663: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1647: 1644: 1643: 1634: 1630: 1626: 1623: 1619: 1618: 1615: 1611: 1607: 1601: 1600: 1599: 1596: 1591: 1585: 1584: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1569: 1565: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1555: 1548: 1547: 1541: 1538: 1535: 1532: 1529: 1526: 1523: 1520: 1517: 1514: 1511: 1508: 1505: 1502: 1501: 1500: 1499: 1495: 1492: 1491: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1472: 1468: 1464: 1463:RSN/Archive27 1460: 1456: 1452: 1448: 1445: 1441: 1438: 1437: 1429: 1425: 1421: 1417: 1411: 1410: 1409: 1406: 1401: 1395: 1394: 1392: 1388: 1384: 1380: 1374: 1370: 1369: 1366: 1363: 1358: 1352: 1348: 1344: 1341: 1340: 1337: 1333: 1329: 1325: 1324: 1321: 1317: 1313: 1309: 1306: 1305: 1300: 1296: 1292: 1291:Spacexplosion 1287: 1286: 1285: 1281: 1277: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1259: 1258:Spacexplosion 1253: 1252: 1249: 1245: 1241: 1240:Spacexplosion 1237: 1233: 1230: 1229: 1220: 1217: 1212: 1206: 1202: 1201: 1198: 1194: 1190: 1184: 1183: 1182: 1179: 1174: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1150: 1149: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1137:Spacexplosion 1133: 1130: 1129: 1119: 1115: 1111: 1107: 1101: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1093: 1088: 1081: 1080: 1079: 1075: 1071: 1067: 1066: 1065: 1064: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1036: 1035: 1032: 1029: 1024: 1018: 1015: 1014: 1009: 1005: 1001: 995: 991: 987: 983: 977: 973: 969: 965: 961: 957: 954: 953: 946: 942: 938: 934: 933: 932: 928: 924: 920: 919: 916: 912: 908: 904: 903:WP:OTHERSTUFF 900: 896: 892: 888: 884: 883: 882: 881: 876: 872: 868: 864: 859: 855: 851: 847: 844: 843: 828: 822: 818: 814: 810: 804: 800: 796: 791: 787: 783: 779: 775: 774: 773: 772: 769: 765: 761: 757: 751: 749: 745: 741: 736: 735: 734: 730: 726: 721: 718: 715: 712: 709: 706: 703: 700: 697: 695: 692: 689: 685: 682: 681: 680: 679: 676: 673: 671: 664: 660: 659: 658: 657: 654: 650: 646: 642: 640: 635: 634: 633: 629: 625: 621: 617: 616: 613: 609: 605: 601: 597: 593: 592: 591: 590: 587: 584: 582: 576: 575:verifiability 572: 568: 565: 564: 559: 556: 554: 548: 544: 540: 536: 535: 534: 530: 526: 522: 521: 518: 514: 510: 505: 502: 501: 498: 494: 490: 487: 481: 477: 473: 470: 469: 460: 456: 452: 449: 445: 444: 443: 442: 441: 440: 436: 432: 428: 424: 420: 416: 410: 409: 408: 407: 404: 401: 396: 390: 387: 386: 385: 384: 380: 376: 371: 361: 357: 354: 351: 347: 343: 339: 336: 333: 330: 327: 324: 321: 318: 315: 311: 308: 307:Find sources: 303: 302: 297: 294: 285: 280: 274: 270: 266: 262: 257: 253: 248: 244: 240: 236: 232: 231: 222: 218: 210: 206: 200: 194: 190: 184: 178: 174: 168: 164: 160: 158: 154: 148: 144: 143: 138: 134: 130: 129: 124: 121: 117: 116: 111: 108: 106: 105: 100: 94: 93: 82: 80: 76: 69: 67: 62: 56: 55: 48: 42: 38: 35: 28: 27: 19: 2243: 2240: 2221: 2213: 2191: 2172: 2153: 2106: 2053: 2032:70.32.39.251 1939:Evan Carroll 1934: 1903:Evan Carroll 1898: 1847:Evan Carroll 1804: 1645: 1625:70.32.39.251 1610:70.32.39.251 1604:— Preceding 1567: 1493: 1439: 1420:70.32.39.251 1383:70.32.39.251 1342: 1328:70.32.39.251 1307: 1236:JamesBWatson 1231: 1193:70.32.39.251 1187:— Preceding 1157:70.32.39.251 1135:Planeshift? 1131: 1110:70.32.39.251 1038: 1016: 1000:70.32.39.251 986:70.32.39.251 955: 891:WP:ITSUSEFUL 845: 752:Ah, and btw 693: 683: 669: 637: 619: 599: 580: 566: 552: 509:JamesBWatson 503: 489:JamesBWatson 484: 479: 471: 446: 426: 411: 388: 367: 355: 349: 341: 334: 328: 322: 316: 306: 220: 208: 199:sockpuppetry 192: 181:; suspected 176: 162: 150: 146: 140: 132: 126: 91: 83: 74: 72: 60: 57: 36: 2226:Marasmusine 2118:content. -- 2026:—Preceding 1984:) has made 1974:RlyDontKnow 1961:RlyDontKnow 1832:) has made 1750:irrelevant. 1658:gamedev.net 1451:translation 1414:—Preceding 1377:—Preceding 1353:may occur. 1268:) has made 1104:—Preceding 1006:) has made 980:—Preceding 873:) has made 819:) has made 778:this thread 766:) has made 663:not made up 332:free images 1755:notability 1528:MMORPG.com 1510:GamersHell 887:WP:IKNOWIT 639:notability 620:concurrent 539:WP:SOFIXIT 133:discussion 2214:Weak keep 2047:Lucap1978 1935:Editorial 1880:JorritTyb 1822:JorritTyb 1809:JorritTyb 1534:GiantBomb 1459:about.com 1440:Weak keep 1051:• Gene93k 480:all three 431:Lucap1978 189:canvassed 183:canvassed 142:consensus 2261:Category 2057:contribs 2028:unsigned 1982:contribs 1830:contribs 1662:gamespot 1606:unsigned 1540:mmo5.com 1522:GameSpot 1475:reliable 1416:unsigned 1379:unsigned 1266:contribs 1189:unsigned 1106:unsigned 982:unsigned 937:Vianello 895:WP:GHITS 871:contribs 817:contribs 795:Poehappy 764:contribs 756:Poehappy 725:Poehappy 670:Excirial 581:Excirial 553:Excirial 451:Poehappy 419:WP:LIBEL 279:View log 221:username 215:{{subst: 209:username 203:{{subst: 193:username 187:{{subst: 177:username 171:{{subst: 2192:Comment 2107:Comment 1788:Rankiri 1667:gadfium 1572:Rankiri 1479:Rankiri 1308:Comment 1132:Comment 1017:Comment 907:Rankiri 645:Rankiri 604:Rankiri 571:notable 567:Neutral 472:Comment 415:WP:NPOV 338:WP refs 326:scholar 252:protect 247:history 185:users: 92:Symonds 2138:Spigot 2120:Xyz231 2011:Spigot 1996:Xyz231 1920:Xyz231 1899:Delete 1732:Spigot 1700:Spigot 1589:Spigot 1455:review 1399:Spigot 1356:Spigot 1276:Xyz231 1232:Delete 1210:Spigot 1172:Spigot 1086:Spigot 1070:Xyz231 1022:Spigot 923:Xyz231 901:, and 863:Xyz231 850:Xyz231 827:WP:ENN 809:Xyz231 790:WP:BIG 780:where 740:Xyz231 624:Xyz231 596:WP:BIG 525:Xyz231 504:Delete 448:below. 423:WP:NPA 421:, and 394:Spigot 389:Delete 310:Google 256:delete 75:delete 2218:WP:RS 2196:WP:RS 1570:". — 1564:WP:RS 966:# ^ 962:# ^ 370:alpha 353:JSTOR 314:books 273:views 265:watch 261:links 163:Note: 89:Peter 16:< 2230:talk 2205:talk 2181:talk 2177:MagV 2173:Keep 2162:talk 2154:Keep 2124:talk 2088:talk 2084:DoRD 2065:talk 2051:talk 2036:talk 2000:talk 1978:talk 1965:talk 1943:talk 1924:talk 1907:talk 1884:talk 1869:talk 1851:talk 1826:talk 1813:talk 1805:Keep 1792:talk 1766:talk 1762:MagV 1720:talk 1686:talk 1660:and 1646:Keep 1629:talk 1614:talk 1576:talk 1494:Keep 1483:talk 1469:and 1444:here 1424:talk 1387:talk 1347:here 1343:Note 1332:talk 1316:talk 1312:MagV 1295:talk 1280:talk 1262:talk 1244:talk 1197:talk 1161:talk 1141:talk 1114:talk 1074:talk 1055:talk 1039:Note 1004:talk 990:talk 956:Keep 941:Talk 927:talk 911:talk 905:. — 867:talk 854:talk 846:Keep 813:talk 799:talk 760:talk 744:talk 729:talk 649:talk 628:talk 608:talk 602:. — 529:talk 513:talk 493:talk 455:talk 435:talk 427:Keep 379:talk 375:DoRD 346:FENS 320:news 269:logs 243:talk 239:edit 98:talk 2222:one 2143:Map 2082:. — 2016:Map 1760:-- 1737:Map 1705:Map 1594:Map 1457:on 1404:Map 1361:Map 1215:Map 1177:Map 1091:Map 1045:. ( 1027:Map 399:Map 360:TWL 281:• 277:– ( 217:csp 213:or 205:csm 173:spa 147:not 2263:: 2232:) 2207:) 2183:) 2164:) 2126:) 2090:) 2067:) 2038:) 2002:) 1980:• 1972:— 1967:) 1945:) 1926:) 1918:-- 1909:) 1886:) 1871:) 1853:) 1828:• 1820:— 1815:) 1794:) 1768:) 1722:) 1688:) 1656:, 1652:, 1631:) 1616:) 1578:) 1485:) 1426:) 1389:) 1349:. 1334:) 1318:) 1297:) 1282:) 1274:-- 1264:• 1256:— 1246:) 1199:) 1163:) 1143:) 1116:) 1076:) 1057:) 1049:) 998:— 992:) 943:) 929:) 913:) 897:, 893:, 889:, 869:• 861:— 856:) 815:• 807:— 801:) 784:- 762:• 754:— 746:) 738:-- 731:) 651:) 643:— 630:) 610:) 531:) 515:) 495:) 457:) 437:) 425:. 417:, 381:) 340:) 271:| 267:| 263:| 259:| 254:| 250:| 245:| 241:| 223:}} 211:}} 201:: 195:}} 179:}} 169:: 43:. 2228:( 2203:( 2179:( 2160:( 2122:( 2086:( 2063:( 2054:· 2049:( 2034:( 1998:( 1976:( 1963:( 1941:( 1922:( 1905:( 1882:( 1867:( 1849:( 1824:( 1811:( 1790:( 1764:( 1718:( 1684:( 1627:( 1612:( 1574:( 1554:† 1481:( 1449:( 1422:( 1385:( 1330:( 1314:( 1293:( 1278:( 1260:( 1242:( 1195:( 1159:( 1139:( 1112:( 1072:( 1053:( 1002:( 988:( 939:( 925:( 909:( 865:( 852:( 811:( 797:( 758:( 742:( 727:( 647:( 626:( 606:( 527:( 511:( 491:( 453:( 433:( 377:( 364:) 356:· 350:· 342:· 335:· 329:· 323:· 317:· 312:( 304:( 287:) 275:) 237:( 225:. 219:| 207:| 191:| 175:| 101:) 95:( 49:.

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