485:, Ryan Avery has permeated the culture of Art Link First Fridays, which has galleries that show artists from all over the country, not just from Arizona proper. It represents an art movement that just happens to be taking place in a city not steretypically art-centric. The claim "Local interest only" is only a superficial claim in this case, as galleries such as Perihelion and The Trunk Space frequently welcome artists from New York, California, New Orleans, etc. Anyone as prolific as Ryan Avery is within this community (see list at beginning of first "strong keep" entry, as well as the links within disputed article) have ties to, and/or has toured and traveled to many other states, making their impact more than just a "local" impact, without mention of the Mission in Portland he will be undertaking, or of Mark Mothersbaugh's diary entry, worthy of note as more than anecdotal evidence of his impact across the state/city. Otherwise, under such scrutinous criteria, those other local artists listed would be disputable as well (and--given ample evidence through more sources than just google or a recording artist database--they are not). In short, I argue "up-and-coming" versus "local interest only," being that his career has essentially just started, and has already undergone an exponential impact, with a diverse history in multiple art areas, given its incredibly short span. With regards to the responding to deletes, that is the modus operandi of civil discussion; comment or question, then response. If each delete request was not followed by a comment or elucidation as to the logic behind it, it would not warrant a response, it would be a simple "yes" or "no" vote.
366:. My whole reason for letting other editors know about this article and the corresponding AfD is because I was hoping they'd read the article, see the associations the artist has made, activities he has participated in, check out the sources I have cited, and then hopefully vote for a keep. However, in no way was I trying to influence anyone's vote (I have informed plenty of editors about other AfDs that they disagreed with me on), merely putting the article in front of them and seeing what they might think. I just think AfDs on music should be voted on by people who have an idea on what the music scene is actually like, not people who only know pop music and think because someone isn't on the radio, that it isn't notable.
904:"The word notable is often used as a synonym of "unique" or "newsworthy." Many vanity articles are deleted because the people discussed are non-notable. Sometimes, there is some content in a non-notable article that can be merged into another article. For example, If a British boy wins an award from his police station for creating a new organization scheme for the British Police Cadets, he may write a vanity article about himself. It may be judged that the new organizational scheme was notable while the details of the award ceremony and the identity of the boy were non-notable. In this case, the notable content in the vanity article on the British boy can be merged into a larger article on cadet schemes in Britain."
449:
what I can tell, Avery is not a nationally recognized artist. He isn't listed on any major music databases. I can't find references to him in any national sources on performance art or experimental music...maybe someone else can? However, I've seen numerous
Knowledge pages on artists who are known only locally or regionally. I guess it depends on whether Ryan Avery represents enough of a unique phenomena in Phoenix to warrant his own page. From what I can gather, he may meet that criteria. --
590:-It may be inappropriate for me to comment on this entry as I am mentioned in the entry. If it is inappropriate I apologize. I recommend a strong keep as Ryan was the cover story in the New Times-Phoenix edition. The New Times is a collection of alternative weekly’s based out of Phoenix and should be considered a major new source. It is the same company that currently owns the Village Voice. Here is a link to the article.....
520:
as "strong keep," and I avoid using excessive linking/hrefs to save time and avoid mistakes. This issue has made me join wikipedia because I have seen many artists sites here that have ultimately been kept under similar circumstances. I know about this topic through an email I received (not from Ryan Avery). I have, however, painted sock puppets.
766:- What's so clear about this? Your accusation is baseless and in bad faith. I cannot control the fact that people familiar with the notability of the subject have decided to chime in on the AfD. I have not contacted anyone about the article or its deletion outside of other Knowledge editors, and I am not in breach of Knowledge policy.
679:
What is so difficult to understand? People found out about the article and the fact that it's up for deletion, so they decided to chime in. Is this the first time this has ever happened on
Knowledge? And is it really my fault, especially considering I do not discuss Knowledge with people who are not
519:
Sorry, I am not a sock puppet. I don't use aliases on the internet, this is my real name and always has been. Dain
Quentin Gore exists under no other alias on Knowledge. In addition, I had to research the html uses, etc. of this site just to enter my vote. I had to copy/paste any markups I used such
448:
feels the need to argue with every person who votes for deletion. I understand you are trying to save your article from being deleted, but you aren't Floyd Landis. This debate shouldn't be taken personally. And if saying that means I am being incivil and not assuming good faith, then so be it. From
72:
Ryan Avery is apparently a local musician and comedian. He has received a few writeups in local papers. He/his bands are, as yet, unsigned. Google returns quite a few results for the name, but, on the first few pages at least, they appear to be for a different individual. Most of the supporting
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first came to
Knowledge on their own. I had something to do with it only in the fact that I created the article on the subject that attracted them here in the first place, but there is no collusion between us. This is the third time you have made an incivil bad faith accusation towards me. My next
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I clicked the link, rklawton, and it showed me that Dain
Quentin Gore has been active on Knowledge. He may be a new editor, but I don't think that makes his vote less relevant. The article on this subject he has an interest in attracted him to Knowledge and has inspired him to join the community.
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It's not bad faith: I really, honestly don't believe you. My accusations may be incorrect, but they are brought forth with the purest of motives. And I don't see why you're accusing me of incivility; I've said nothing against you personally. How exactly could one bring forth such suspicions in a
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So long as we identify them as such, the admin reviewing the discussion can take it into consideration. They are under no obligation to simply tally the votes. As a result, it's not really necessary to delete a sock puppet/meat puppet's votes. In fact, the admin may want to take this sort of
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I have been reading over the rules for qualification to see what is allowed/not allowed and proper in these conversations. I have not been able to find a definition of sock puppet. From the above comments I can get the jist, but is there definition availible? Kevin
Patterson
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criteria right there. There's a bit more to it than that, of course... Google hits, AMG.com entries, and Amazon sales really don't apply in this case, nor do major labels. Avery has performed with or has working relationships with other acts listed here on
Knowledge, such as
425:
Thank you, Rklawton. We may disagree, but at least you are letting me disagree. :) And as far as why I responded, I respond when I feel a comment is based on bad logic. Yes, Knowledge is not MySpace, but I feel that doesn't have anything to do with this debate. I don't vote
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Actually, AfD pages are not all about voting but about discussing the matter at hand. Votes are secondary. Replies, civil discussion, and thoroughly exploring the issue are the order of the day. Is there some reason you feel it important to cut the discussion short?
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or write an article on every band I come across. I would not have put the article up if I did not have sources and an assertion of notability in the article. Arguments like "this isn't MySpace" or "delete, I've never heard of the guy" don't seem relevant.
669:
For what it's worth, I was convinced by the comments there that there wasn't enough evidence to bring forth a sock puppet accusation, and decided that I had made a mistake for that reason. I'm still very suspicious of the sudden appearances here.
552:. This is a sort of thing that is to be avoided in these debates. Yes, you have joined the debate now and are welcome to make comments. It will be up to some administrator who closes the debate, however, to decide how to weigh these comments. -
561:
I'd just like to add... I'm not Ryan Avery, I'm not Dain Gore, I'm not the man (or woman) on the grassy knoll, and I never leave
Knowledge's pages to talk about anything Knowledge, so I don't know about the e-mail being referred to.
538:
I don't have an agenda. Labelling tends to misdirect the actual debate at hand. There was no "call to action" on the part of the email, it was a link to Ryan Avery's wikipedia entry. I made the decision myself to add to the debate.
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Yes, I left notices on the talk pages of editors who had worked on articles relating to the subject, hoping they would vote keep on this article. The two new
Knowledge editors who began their time on Knowledge by voting
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But I did not do this, so there is no misbehavior. Frankly, I think all the bad faith accusations taint this debate far more than two new editors who showed up for the AfD, and I don't see a real consensus here.
731:
I would say by the fourth time I have told you "NO, I DIDN'T," I would say it's incivil to keep it going. I have a good history here of editing and playing by the rules in the AfDs. You're past the point of
326:
No. First of all, I am not the subject of this article. I have written many
Arizona related articles, this is just one. Second of all, I asked you to read this article and comment on the AfD because of
820:
Correction: this AfD has seen the appearance of several "meat puppets" - editors whose only contribution to Knowledge has been to come forward in this AfD in support of the "Keep" vote.
386:
Knowledge is not a collection of all musicians, etc., just the notable ones. Other databases/websites exist to list everyone in entertainment. It's all about quality, not quantity.
656:: I'm restoring the above comment as I don't feel it was obviously personal (no one was named). At the same time I feel the need to disagree. The accuser in the case of
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it meets notability criteria, as asserted in the article, on the talk page, and in this AfD. So, pray tell, since I have refuted the "nn" claims, what else do you have?
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appears to have recanted so it would be wise not to jump to any conclusions here. It would be better to focus your comments on the reason that you feel it is "nn". -
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to keep, and we have seen two meat puppets vote one time each to keep. We have seen six other editors (not including the nomination) voting to delete.
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I have informed some of my fellow editors, who have worked on articles about similar subjects, about this article and this AfD to get their opinion.
914:
Also, the "meat puppet" charge stands unproven. I have so far presented arguments that have yet to be refuted or even brought up/mentioned again.
245:
No, I am not. This is not the first AZ-related article I have written, nor the first to be put up for deletion, and probably not the last.
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at least two people who had never used Knowledge again just happened to "find out" about this AfD, but you had nothing to do with that. —
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likely being used in a bid to keep this. (Update: let me amplify my vote: I agree with Chowbok, RKLawton, et al wrt notability.)
395:
I am well aware that this is not a musician directory. I have asserted notability in the article, with reliable, cited sources.
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if nom withdrawn. Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (not to mention on
17:
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111:). Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style AND the local scene of a city. That's two pieces of
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140:. He is an important figure in the music, art, comedy, and improv scenes of a major American city. And, he is an
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Unless you are looking to exclude new editors, then you must look upon this as a point in favor of the article.
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references are to pages created by or for Ryan Avery. I do not feel the subject is noteworthy or encyclopedic.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
362:
As I have said before (and this is not intended for Infamous, just a general principle he/she reminded me of),
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Uh huh. So you sent messages to a bunch of unfamiliar Knowledge users that you hoped would vote to keep this,
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342:. I will take this conversation to your talk page, but I request you strike out your misapprehension above.
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Must you reply to every delete vote? You've stated your case, now please just let the vote continue. —
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317:- I just got spammed by Ryan Avery asking me to visit his Knowledge page. This isn't MySpace. --
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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877:: Is NN synonymous with "Local Interest Only?" If so, no strict criteria exists to delete.
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What of the criteria it has met, as listed above? It meets those, therefore does not fail
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Advertising or soliciting meatpuppet activity is not an acceptable practice on Knowledge.
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Of local interest only. Very few Google hits, blank entry on AMG, fails every test on
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Your statement that the article fails inclusion guidelines is just plain wrong. Read
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292:- local interest, up-and-coming, maybe, but not until 2008 according to the article.
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No. He has been active for years. 2008 is when he will be returning from Portland.
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Not every person. Only when someone says something that I felt needed a response.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:List_of_ways_to_verify_notability_of_articles
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability#Non-notable_topics_do_not_belong
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voted and said something I disagreed with, but I did not respond to him/her.
86:: I should probably also note that this is a contested prod, for the record.
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If it is kept, it should of course be moved. Why was this created under
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just because you haven't heard of someone doesn't make them non-notable
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misbehavior into consideration when making the delete/keep decision.
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By "meat puppet," the above is refering to something described here
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Verifiable. However, I have to ask, you aren't Ryan Avery, are you,
497:- Dain has one edited in Knowledge, and you just read it (above).
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Oh...my mistake. I've never heard of Ryan Avery. Can't help you. --
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http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2006-08-03/news/feature.html
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What do you mean unproven? This is the definition of meat puppet
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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But none of that type of misbehavior is happening on this AfD.
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As I recall, that fits the definition of a "meat puppet".
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on Knowledge? (First rule of Fight Club and all that...).
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183:. I have already covered my thoughts about AMG above.
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which I felt were related. I do not appreciate your
148:, which convinced me it was time for this article).
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
891:Note that the verification (Search Engine) test (
982:). No further edits should be made to this page.
918:: deleted comment not pertaining to the debate.
658:Knowledge:Suspected sock puppets/Parsssseltongue
508:Knowledge:Suspected_sock_puppets/Parsssseltongue
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879:http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability
829:Tally so far: So far we have seen PT vote
442:First of all, I am a little disturbed that
842:Correction: I voted once. Another editor,
909:http://en.wikipedia.org/Phoenix_New_Times
883:this is not an actual policy or guideline
907:Presents a potential case to merge with
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550:Knowledge:Sock puppetry#Meatpuppets
722:manner you would consider civil? —
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18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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911:under "noteworthy articles."
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625:} Sock (or Meat) -puppetry
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736:issues and venturing into
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338:, which certainly did not
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975:Please do not modify it.
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948:contribs
940:rklawton
936:unsigned
875:Question
835:Rklawton
822:Rklawton
802:Rklawton
778:Question
764:Rebuttal
640:WP:MUSIC
631:Eusebeus
611:contribs
599:unsigned
531:Rklawton
499:Rklawton
418:Rklawton
388:Rklawton
195:Comment:
181:WP:MUSIC
168:WP:MUSIC
138:Aquabats
118:Quintron
113:WP:MUSIC
786:WP:SOCK
738:dickish
724:Chowbok
697:Chowbok
672:Chowbok
662:MrFizyx
654:Comment
627:clearly
554:MrFizyx
512:Chowbok
408:Chowbok
333:incivil
207:Chowbok
172:Chowbok
164:Delete.
109:website
88:Shimeru
84:Comment
75:Shimeru
784:Go to
619:Delete
384:Delete
315:Delete
290:Delete
259:Delete
136:, and
102:speedy
831:twice
623:{RPA}
230:Keep.
150:Note:
16:<
944:talk
916:Edit
707:keep
607:talk
506:See
428:keep
236:? --
48:. -
881:: "
693:and
510:. —
273:493
205:? —
170:. —
959:PT
950:)
946:•
931:.
901::
885:."
854:PT
812:PT
791:PT
788:.
769:PT
743:PT
713:PT
683:PT
645:PT
613:)
609:•
565:PT
465:PT
445:PT
434:PT
398:PT
369:PT
345:PT
304:PT
281:lk
278:Ta
270:ns
267:yo
264:Dl
248:PT
217:PT
186:PT
155:PT
132:,
128:,
124:,
120:,
100:,
58:lo
942:(
670:—
605:(
54:b
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