492:. The "speedy" that erased this page declared it failed "WP:WEB." However, "WP:WEB" is not a criteria for speedy deletion. The majority of negative commentators on it's overturning simply said they didn't like the site because it was negative, or because it was (they asserted) created by a banned user. However, like them or hate them, whether they were started by a banned user or by Jesus Christ, the fact remains that killing the messenger doesn't change the message. The bottom line is that Wikitruth meets all criteria for inclusion in Knowledge. One of Wikitrith's largest criticisms of Knowledge is that pages can (and very often are) deleted without warning and leaving no trace, despite the GFDL. Speedy-deleting the Wikitruth entry on Knowledge does not delete their criticism, it
1032:
good idea to recycle earlier work). Ebiz just regurgitates
Orlowski, so that can't qualify towards multiple. The Village Voice piece is independent, and presumably non-trivial, and an unbalanced rant into the bargain. No doubt you see this as meeting WP:WEB's requirements, but I don't. So we disagree, no surprise there. However, the impossibility of this ever being NPOV means that we'll be back here again, after a decent interval, repeating exactly the same arguments. "Avoid writing or editing articles about , since we all find objectivity especially difficult when we ourselves are concerned." Good advice that.
1196:. I didn't know that Knowledge entries were indexed on Google but... "wikitruth" returns 101,000 Google hits (NOT case sensitive) and when searching "wiki truth" (11,600,000 hits), the WikiTruth site comes first (second with "wi ki truth"). Besides, the history and discussion pages are quite active and this article is listed in the category "Knowledge critics". But maybe this category has to go too. Doesn't it fall also under the "we do not feed the trolls" argument? And as trolls feed on most Knowledge articles, maybe we should marked them all for AfD.
1385:; The WikiTruth "Sure is funny and they sure tell the Wikitruth and they know what they're talking about." Unfortunately, there are too many zealots here, who don't think it's funny, can't handle the truth and don't know jack shit about what this project is SUPPOSED to stand for (Exactly which part of "ALL of human knowledge" don't you understand?). Maybe if you heeded the messengers, rather than trying to delete their messages, this project would better live up to its ideals, its potential and its promise.--
916:
118:
811:
Yep, this is not the right venue for discussing who started
Wikitruth, and it has - and shouldn't have - any bearing whether or not this article is kept. (Nasty mean people get articles too!) Unless you can demonstrate this article was created by the user in question (or any other permabanned troll),
626:
Tawker speedy deleted it, its redirects, and its talk page, and then salted the article--all while never giving communication about it on the wiki. Then despite it being early
October, he claimed he was going on Thansgiving holiday. Maybe he deleted the article due to emotional turmoil, but yet his
1031:
As usual, this depends on how we read multiple and non-trivial. Orlowski's piece is merely repeating the arguments he made on the Reg for the benefit of the sandal-wearing lentil-eating
Grauniad readers. Wikitruth is merely a hook on which to hang this (and if you get paid by the word, it's a pretty
889:
Not only is this more than worthy, but deleting it is exactly what
Wikitruth wants, so they can libel Knowledge further and use it to fuel their arguments against it. We should keep this article and do our best to make it fair, honest and NPOV, as we do with the rest of Knowledge. That is the best
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Tawker, I think that speedy deleting it, speedy deleting the redirects, salting the article, and especially speedy deleting the talk page and then remaining silent about it on wiki until it was restored really hurt this AFD. Before you did that, not that many people were paying attention to the
1003:
Umm, isn't that just a tad obvious - why else would it be here. Apparently a google screwup gave me odder hits for my original search so hits might not be as big of a facor originally. ED and
Wikitruth appear to have similiar hit counts but one exists and the other does not. Anyways, technical
716:
page which deals with certain legal issues. Ted Wilkes claimed to have much legal knowledge and used this knowledge in his mud-throwing campaign against arbcom member Fred Bauder. Wilkes, who plumed himself on being one of the best and most active contributors to
Knowledge, was blocked by arbcom
525:
articles that fail CSD, because those get deleted"). If there's even tad bit of possibility the site is at all notable, it's an AfD case. I wouldn't go enforcing the "new" A7 on old articles unless it's extremely clear-cut and there's not been significant improvement since creation. This article
84:- original speedy (by me) was due to a Google screwup, apparently Google is case sensitive (so be warned) and I had googled WikiTruth instead and so google decided that 150 hits was all it was going to pop by. That being said, it would have gone to AfD had I seen some propser results --
368:
Hmm. Wouldn't go as far as saying farcical. Here I was thinking
Knowledge was more like a case of having rules written by gods and implementation carried out by well-meaning, but ultimately so human, mortals. First step when understanding any process in society is to understand that
1157:. The argument to keep this, and similar articles, appears to be "Wikitruth/Daniel Brandt/whatever criticised Knowledge and Andrew Orlowski/Slashdot/whatever picked it up". Who cares ? Apparently lots of Knowledge editors do, perhaps because it makes them feel important (cf.
270:, a well-known critic website about a notable encyclopedia, and its criticisms have been commented on in public by the said notable encyclopedia. All this has gotten into newspaper stories like the one in the Guardian, making the whole thing notable enough.
330:
per media coverage and being somewhat widely known among critical sites. Also, the article, the AfDs, and the countless public debates have, over time, given me a profound zen revelation: We're All (speaking now of both us and them) Wasting Time. It's
639:. First, sarcasm and abuse aren't appropriate here. Second, do be careful to do a bit of fact-checking before you wield sarcasm and bad faith in the future—while the United States celebrates Thanksgiving in November, this is not the case
358:
Knowledge as realized, as opposed to idealized, is an essentially farcical undertaking. Wikitruth is notable by objective – and even
Knowledge – criteria as well as an appropriate response, whoever lies behind it, whatever their motives.
130:
I first thought maybe google has problems with it. After all, there's a web page all about it and it recommended yahoo. So I tried Yahoo and noticed no difference in capitalization. Then I tried google and no capitalization different
902:
deleting this article just gives wikitruth one more feather in its hat... yet more proof wikipedia doesnt accept criticism. Kitch is quite right, keep it, npov the hell out of it and show them that we take criticism seriously.
741:
frequently accused user
Onefortyone of gaming the system, being a troll, the "most dangerous vandal", etc., falsely claiming that this user's edits were fabricated, unfounded, or unwarranted and therefore must be removed. See
730:. Significantly, Angela Beesley is attacked on the Wikitruth pages. Furthermore, administrator FCYTravis is one of Wikitruth's whipping boys, perhaps because Ted Wilkes had some trouble with this administrator on the
1053:
artcle and then suddenly the news of what you did spread everywhere and lots of people came to vote to keep it. So the actions hurt your cause and you would have done better by AFDing it through process.
587:. The mentions in the media are sparse at best and mostly in the context of Knowledge. Just because it criticizes Knowledge doesn't make it any more or less notable. If this was a site criticizing
820:
in such case, deleting it would be a controversial enough move to warrant discussion here. Fascinating tidbits, though, if demonstrably true and could be included to the article while avoiding OR. --
606:, simply removing their page on Knowledge does not make their criticisms any less valid, especially about the powers of admins deciding things by themselves. Notable, no original research etc. --
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to count. Perhaps by keeping this article Knowledge can contribute to our implied mission of enrichening human minds and knowledge. Because life is too short for people to truly know anything. --
180:
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more than satisfied by Guardian/Register articles. That said, it's an attack site, not serious criticism of Knowledge. The article should characterize Wikitruth's content accurately. |
513:
articles with considerable history and would likely to cause debate if unilaterally removed is iffy at best, dubious at worst. CSD is primarily intended to remove
802:
Who created Wikitruth and their true aims are irrelevant. Their notability and publicity pass muster IMHO. See my keep comment further down for my opinion. --
720:. Is it just mere coincidence that Wikitruth was started shortly after that date, on 20 March 2006? His alias NightCrawler had much trouble with administrator
186:
177:
Google returns different results depending on which server you happen to hit. For what it's worth, here's another google test excluding the sites themselves:
737:. Wikitruth also frequently claims that too many vandals and trolls "game the system" on Knowledge. Is it just by chance that Wilkes and his supporter
858:
69:
1079:; media mentions aren't on their own merit, but because "OGM a website criticizes Knowledge". Any other similar website would not have made media.
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468:. I think Tawker was just trying to get himself criticized on their site :) I oppose deletion, but I wouldn't be against merging into the longer
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essentially navel-gazing. Oh look, wikipedia is important enough that there's a website devoted to picayune errors and issues!!! Knowledge is
773:. So much for my suspicion concerning the origin of Wikitruth. Therefore, any reference to this biased anti-Knowledge site should be deleted.
1310:
1208:, Knowledge finally must learn to accept that it has reached a stage where even criticism on Knowledge can be of significance on itself. --
788:
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walking down from the mountain, carrying tablets that say "WP:V", "WP:NOR", "WP:NPOV" and one that's obscured by the others) "The lord
1386:
1220:. Getting rid of this article would be petty and even pov. Criticism of wikipedia should be accurately chronicled in the database. --
105:
I have no idea whats up with google, but I can certainly see how Tawker might have gotten a wierd result in a search for "WikiTruth"
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screwup led to the first speedy, but my reasoning still stands here. BTW, may I suggest logging in.. it makes life easier --
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You guys look like you are proving the point of the article by even having a delete notice, it ruins your credibility. --
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I tried in different web browsers and got the same result. I got radically different numbers for both sites than you two.
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has given you these four..." (drops the last stone tablet, which shatters) "Three! Three commandments for all to obey!" --
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Uppercase search for "Encyclopedia Dramatica": Results 1 - 10 of about 195,000 for Encyclopedia Dramatica. (0.06 seconds)
979:- this fails WP Web hence an A7 delete. We deleted ED's page per the same criteria (and it's had google hits too...), we
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Lowercase search for "encyclopedia dramatica": Results 1 - 10 of about 13,400 for encyclopedia dramatica. (0.07 seconds)
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Comment: I'll back up Tawker here, we had a conversation on IRC and I can verify the bizzare google results...
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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by overwhelming consensus. No need to prolong this, esp. in light of the aforementioned "screwup."
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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A DRV result has already decided that A7 was not valid for a speedy deletion in this case. --
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article, where sites like Knowledge Watch and Knowledge Review are mentioned and discussed.--
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website that criticizes Knowledge have to go through this 'controversy' bupkis? Mein Gott!!
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subject to CSD A7 these days. However, this was introduced very recently and applying it to
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Mentioned in a number of mainstream publications, thorn in Knowledge's side, amply meets
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Why the Knowledge communuity keeps articles like these is one thing I don't understand.
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this part of the collective Wikipedian vanity series of articles which will never be
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which I haven't investigated myself, but I'm relying on the assumption that someone
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679:. In my opinion, this anti-Knowledge site has been created by multiple hardbanned
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72:, in April, ended in no consensus. Procedural listing, so I abstain for now. ~
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wikistress level says good on his userpage. Is Tawker's account hijacked?
712:. One of the criticisms against Knowledge centers on Jimbo Wales and the
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and his many other sockpuppets. DW was under a hard ban since 2003 (see
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1320:. Notable for now, in the absense of more useful critic websites. --
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uncontroversial (as in "every user should know that it doesn't help to
314:, plus deleting it makes us look juvenile (not a criterion, I know). --
447:, has recieved multiple non-trivial mentions in major media outlets.
757:. Wyss even accused administrator Mel Etitis of being a troll. See
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even though some people may have higher responsibilities than you,
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
215:: It has been covered in respectable media outlets, looks like.
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more or less explains why this sort of article is a Bad Thing.
1232:, has been referenced on multiple well known news websites --
857:, the notability of this group has only increased since the
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on Knowledge. Hence Wikitruth needs to go to /dev/null --
181:"encyclopedia dramatica" -site:encyclopediadramatica.com
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isn't an open-and-shut case and it should be AfD'd. --
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This article was restored after a speedy deletion was
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as per all above. Notable and well-written article.
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for the same reasons it was kept in the first AfD. --
505:Websites that fail to assert notability per WP:WEB
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
400:Carried out by mere mortals. - Yup, that explains
253:. No reason has been given to delete, really. --
1407:). No further edits should be made to this page.
724:, ironically wishing Angie "WikiLove," etc. See
555:per Jeff and others, and my comments at DRV. --
374:they still have the same basic human weaknesses
766:. Significantly, Wikitruth is recommended on
8:
816:have caught such detail much earlier - and
717:ruling on 19 March 2006 for one year. See
1013:Tawker, as I've demonstrated above, it
760:. For a summary of the facts, see also
698:from editing Knowledge, per ruling of
302:Notable, newsworthy and interesting --
7:
890:way to discredit their arguments. --
165:"Encyclopedia Dramatica" - 135,000
162:"encyclopedia dramatica" - 135,000
148:"Encyclopedia Dramatica" - 133,000
145:"encyclopedia dramatica" - 133,000
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290:, no reason given for deletion.
1248:. Let's follow the rules, folks.
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44:The result was closed early and
1346:meets criteria for inclusion.--
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
1313:) 20:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
1244:as per Kitch and Reinoutr and
1184:, above all, about Knowledge.
187:wikitruth -site:wikitruth.info
1:
1387:R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine)
1332:per comments as above, meets
227:but it deserves a mention on
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1116:. That is all, seriously. --
517:articles in case where it's
189:(102.000 hits on my screen).
53:06:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
1336:guidelines for inclusion.
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977:Strong Strong Strong Delete
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243:, meets WP:WEB in terms of
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734:page. See, for instance,
613:remind to go do uni work!
1400:Please do not modify it.
714:Knowledge:Office Actions
32:Please do not modify it.
887:Speedy Keep, as in NOW!
66:reviewed and overturned
1210:Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr)
1067:totally meets WP:WEB.
981:do not feed the trolls
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585:Criticism of Knowledge
470:Criticism of Knowledge
229:Criticism of Knowledge
1377:. To paraphrase what
1340:23:13, 9 October 2006
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1096:Hands up: who thinks
779:comment was added by
706:", etc. in 2005. See
1275:This article passes
696:blocked indefinitely
1254:. Notability under
1139:. Unfortunately. --
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958:Strong Delete
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1356:keep. Keep.
1355:
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996:67.71.78.201
980:
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875:Arcsincostan
870:
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405:Arcsincostan
401:
397:
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361:Arcsincostan
355:
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267:
240:
224:
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108:
81:
80:
63:
45:
43:
31:
28:
1383:Lenny Bruce
1375:Strong Keep
1338:Yamaguchi先生
1242:Strong Keep
1194:Strong Keep
1142:Woohookitty
1126:Strong Keep
1065:Strong Keep
927:Merge with
770:. See also
704:Jimbo Wales
412:(Picturing
402:everything.
847:Myles Long
641:everywhere
474:Cúchullain
68:. A prior
1260:Mr. Darcy
1246:principle
1222:TrojanMan
1069:Geedubber
859:first AfD
739:User:Wyss
589:Microsoft
494:validates
449:Night Gyr
292:JASpencer
59:Wikitruth
1381:said of
1311:contribs
1299:unsigned
1186:Eusebeus
863:Silensor
789:contribs
777:unsigned
595:ShinmaWa
519:entirely
316:Dhartung
251:mentions
245:multiple
1358:KEEP!!!
1348:Tbeatty
1322:Cjensen
1279:. --
1163:WP:AUTO
1155:WP:NPOV
1094:Comment
967:kantari
907:ALKIVAR
823:wwwwolf
800:Comment
685:User:DW
637:Comment
557:W.marsh
533:wwwwolf
528:clearly
423:wwwwolf
379:wwwwolf
376:. =) --
338:wwwwolf
304:Bedders
225:Delete,
213:Comment
136:Google:
131:either.
109:ALKIVAR
1334:WP:WEB
1277:WP:WEB
1256:WP:WEB
1178:Delete
1170:(Talk)
1159:WP:CVU
1151:Delete
1081:Ral315
1077:Delete
1037:(Talk)
1006:Tawker
985:Tawker
832:growls
722:Angela
687:alias
683:alias
677:Delete
542:growls
523:create
432:growls
388:growls
347:growls
288:WP:WEB
153:Yahoo:
86:Tawker
1379:Dylan
1363:every
1361:Does
1283:Selmo
1234:James
1129:DXRAW
1100:is a
1055:Anomo
963:Nacon
936:Quarl
925:Merge
892:Kitch
828:barks
814:might
804:Kitch
665:Anomo
629:Anomo
583:with
581:Merge
569:Spoom
538:barks
428:barks
418:Jimbo
384:barks
343:barks
272:Zocky
248:media
195:Zocky
170:Anomo
16:<
1344:Keep
1330:Keep
1318:Keep
1307:talk
1293:Keep
1273:Keep
1264:talk
1252:Keep
1230:Keep
1218:Keep
1206:Keep
1137:Keep
1104:? ~
1098:this
1085:talk
1023:talk
1015:does
946:Keep
900:Keep
873:per
871:Keep
855:Keep
843:Keep
818:even
785:talk
649:talk
624:Keep
604:Keep
573:Talk
565:Keep
553:Keep
496:it.
490:Keep
466:Keep
453:talk
445:Keep
356:Keep
328:Keep
320:Talk
312:Keep
300:Keep
284:Keep
268:Keep
259:talk
241:Keep
50:El_C
46:kept
1182:not
1161:).
1114:Lol
877:.
861:.
593:--
515:new
511:old
507:are
498:Xaa
333:got
233:1ne
70:AfD
1309:•
1087:)
931:.
834:)
791:)
787:•
763:,
754:,
751:,
748:,
745:,
727:,
709:,
702:,
651:)
643:.
571:-
544:)
459:)
457:Oy
434:)
390:)
349:)
318:|
274:|
231:.
197:|
1305:(
1083:(
934:—
912:™
830:/
826:(
795:.
783:(
647:(
540:/
536:(
481:c
478:/
455:/
451:(
430:/
426:(
386:/
382:(
345:/
341:(
114:™
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