1083:, but that policy supports keeping the article: “Although Knowledge (XXG) includes up-to-date knowledge about newly revealed products, short articles that consist only of product announcement information are not appropriate.” This is a long article about a newly revealed product that includes information from independent analysts, not just product announcement information. Moreover, the user nominating the deletion seems to motivated by their personal speculation (not based on evidence) that the product announcement is deliberately deceptive and part of a secret plan by the company. That does not seem to be an appropriate reason to nominate an article for deletion. It would seem to violate
570:. This is largely a promotional hype at this point. All that reliable sources are repeating is essentially that the announcement happened at this time and place, and Tesla (Musk) showed a prototype, described some prospective features, shared some numbers and made future projections. Nobody could possibly verify most of this information. A short section in the Tesla article should suffice. Popularity of the topic is not a good reason to have an article. Knowledge (XXG) is fundamentally about the accepted knowledge. There is no reliable knowledge at this point.
986:- This is not a short article, nor does it only rely on a product announcement. The WSJ article covering preorders (mentioned above) is a good example of that. It's clear that the paper didn't just rely on a Tesla press release but contacted preorder buyers and other companies of interest. This is not mere vaporware or product placement; preorders and interest by major shipping companies are present fact reported in secondary sources, not the sort of speculation or rumor that
325:. (Yes, I'm aware I'm linking to a discussion describing arguments not to make in article deletion discussions). Among other things, if this article doesn't exist, it's going to get created multiple times in many forms under many names. With this article we can document that two prototypes have been built and shown, with various claims attached, and that external confirmation is not available.
1105:
647:: "Until such time that more encyclopedic knowledge about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable. Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content."
461:
and can distract investors from the company's troubles, proping up the stock price. If they never build the Semi or
Roadster 2, nobody will care a year from now because they haven't really committed themselves to anything. From nothing comes nothing. These are some of the reasons why we've had the WP:CRYSTAL policy for so long.
460:
to cite one example: that the
Roadster 2 and Semi look very much like clever distractions from the company's looming cash flow problems, and the "production hell" the Model 3 is mired in, which threatens the very existence of Tesla. But they can raise a quick $ 250 million in deposits for Roadster 2,
665:
product announcement is intended for the myriad of product announcements that happen readily, like a new version of car. Done with a press release and a couple of paragraphs of relevant info. In comparison there are working prototypes demonstrated to live audience, orders being taken, detailed specs
548:
Personal speculation about a company’s secret plans and motives, presented without evidence, is not a sound rationale for deleting a
Knowledge (XXG) article. As far as I’m aware, no professional industry analyst thinks that the Tesla Semi is not a real vehicle that Tesla fully intends to build. I
857:
The argument for deleting the article seems to be that the Tesla Semi’s existence is dubious, or it’s dubious that the Semi’s advertised specs are achievable. However, no reliable source as been cited as sharing these doubts. On the other hand, major companies such as
Walmart and J.B. Hunt have
450:
policy against product announcements doesn't carve out an exception because a prototype supposedly exists. Another reminder: we have no independent evidence the prototype is capable of anything close to the claimed performance, or even that it really works at all. We only have the company's own
238:
LOL, this is not a short article. The implications of the announcement are huge. Thousands of people dying because of pollution, thousands dying because of drugged or drowsy semi drivers. The truck will revolutionize the industry. If you do a search on a given 24 hour period you will find
455:
or had a secret love child with the Pope, we wouldn't treat these things as facts, or automatically want to repeat their boasts. Fans of Tesla (I count myself as one) are losing their perspective and objectivity. Consider the more sober assessment by industry analysts quoted at
204:. Until such time that more encyclopedic knowledge about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable. Speculation and rumor,
321:. Yes, it's based on hype, but hype from Musk generates a thousand speculative articles across the spectrum for the foreseeable future. Having an article (flagged as having lousy sources) where we can document the origin of the speculations would be
549:
haven’t even seen an analyst question the advertised specs on the Semi. I believe Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s comment about “thermonuclear explosion-proof glass” was a joke, as he laughed when he said it and it got a laugh from the audience.
670:
Product is being discussed widely from several perspectives and continues to be referenced widely in the media everyday. The article continues to be expanded everyday. And daily page views show the exceptional value of this page.
608:
Yes, I used the word "verify" not in the same sense as WP:V. Yes, we can verify that Musk said certain things. I love electric cars, and wish Tesla the best of luck, but the article is about a bunch of promises at this point.
513:
The industry analysts quoted have far more credibility than the breathless fanboys at the gaggle of green car blogs mostly cited, and they cast credible doubt on basically every single prediction in the article. So we have
1087:. Plus, even if this speculation is true, then surely the article is all the more notable. If any reliable source believes the announcement is part of a secret plan to deceive investors, include that in the article.
164:
1024:
Clearly meets GNG/RS, and even if one car was never sold, the mere product announcement alone is notable in itself in this case and provides plenty of non-speculative information, voiding CRYSTAL concerns.
1058:(good RS for autos, as far as I know), and its good to go article. Although YouTube and the rest can be removed or altered to appease the masses, but clearly deleting it is not an option.--
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The only deletion reason I see so far was based on "short articles that consist only of product announcement information are not appropriate". 18 kb, well sourced. This is not a
217:
Tonight's Tesla Semi unveiling in
Hawthorne, California wasn't about the nitty-gritty information, though. It was about fueling hype and excitement in a way that only Musk can."
1161:. This is not a vote, and large numbers of editors who argue "lots of google hits" or "just notable" or similar misunderstandings of Knowledge (XXG) guidelines don't count. --
943:
55:. There's no possibility that this will be closed any way other than keep, and keeping it open is just process for processes sake with the potential to cause bad feeling. ‑
158:
990:
concerns. An AfD is premature for something generating this much coverage, when there's valid reason to expect coverage to continue and provide lasting notability.
858:
placed orders for the vehicle. This indicates that at least some trucking experts believe this vehicle is real and have some confidence in Tesla’s claims about it.
1212:
518:, Tesla, and we have many reasons to doubt that one source. The statements by the one source, Tesla, are not facts, they are speculation and conjecture. --
363:
This article has more than 1000 viewers per day at the moment. A very popular article in
Knowledge (XXG) like "cat" has more than 6000 viewers per day.
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boasts. The 0-60 time or operating cost are just as dubious as the "nuclear explosion-proof glass”. If an individual boasted that they had invented
124:
909:
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should be invoked. The almost unanimous view is that the article should be kept. The user who nominated the argument for deletion cited
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219:
There are no independently verifiable facts about this future product, no published specification. The only information we have is
434:
which don't have the same guidelines as en.wikipedia and are often machine copies of the
English article, among other reasons. 2.
457:
1213:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-truck-jb-hunt-trans/j-b-hunt-wal-mart-climb-aboard-teslas-electric-truck-idUSKBN1DH1GH
90:
85:
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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If something has a working prototype and hundreds of notable sources write about it, then it should have an article. --
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The industry analysts have zero credibility. They have been predicting Tesla bankruptcy and other ills for years.
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360:- 1. Wikipedias in other languages have the same article 2. Did anybody check the statistics of that article?
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This was the correct answer a half of decade ago. Why no one listened to this user is beyond me.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
50:
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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438:-- If our goal was to maximize page hits, we'd have a lot more porn or celebrity gossip. 3.
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714:. Yes, there's a burst of coverage based on a press conference. But all those news outlets
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This is an annonced future product of a type that is specifically addressed by the policy
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Popularity of a topic doesn't mean it is encyclopedic, but it is a strong indication.
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421:, it's well sourced. not vaporware. 700k+ ghits, and coverage in major news media. --
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It is notable and well sourced. It is not some vaporware from an unknown company.
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756:, but noting the number of readers of the page, rather than an all out delete, a
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Popularity of a topic doesn't mean it is an encyclopedic content. A quote from
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allows that. I can respect that point of view, even if I happen to disagree. --
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65:
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If you wish to make any further personal accusations, you should take it to
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Am surprised that the nominator nominated it without looking at refs first.
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349:
200:"...short articles that consist only of product announcement information
925:
article, and it has much more than merely the product announcement. --
430:
Regarding the fallacies in five of the keep !votes above: see 1.
725:. Things that don't exist, or things that might never exist,
821:
Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Tesla
Roadster (2020)
1159:
Knowledge (XXG):Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions
1046:(the very first ref) is reliable all alone. Adding to it
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623:
That's true, but they're still promises that have been
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Who could be interested in deleting such an article ?
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too soon in the creation process to merit an article.
1007:Nom is disrupting Knowledge (XXG) to make a point.
964:
185:
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
781:. Very useful for research. 1500 views per day.
944:list of Technology-related deletion discussions
764:), looks more appropriate if this is not kept.
253:To say nothing of the children. I didn't even
760:to the relevant section (bolstered with more
8:
962:Note: This debate has been included in the
942:Note: This debate has been included in the
208:, are not appropriate encyclopedic content."
961:
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840:per The Bushranger. The topic passes GNG.
485:And how is The Verge's analysis any less
718:. There's more than enough here to pass
348:– Easily meets GNG, tons of sourcing. —
1205:
1153:. Please be more familiar with the the
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1157:policy and the fallacies listed at
798:As with the deletion nomination of
716:considered this worthy of covering
24:
1195:The discussion above is closed.
1124:) has already cast a vote above.
902:Das ist der erste Truck von Tesla
239:thousands of hits on this topic.
1103:
900:international media reception.
625:widely reported on in the media
1:
1187:03:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
1171:17:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
1097:04:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
1068:03:45, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
1035:19:43, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
1017:14:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
1000:18:20, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
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956:07:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
935:11:57, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
914:04:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
868:03:11, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
850:16:41, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
833:18:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
823:, opened 12 minutes later. —
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791:14:01, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
774:07:23, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
741:07:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
703:03:40, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
681:04:52, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
666:released, including pricing.
657:22:12, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
639:20:38, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
619:15:24, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
604:07:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
580:20:56, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
559:03:04, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
542:18:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
528:17:26, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
509:07:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
495:that's not our place to judge
480:19:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
426:18:54, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
410:17:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
393:16:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
376:15:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
353:15:10, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
341:03:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
311:03:40, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
297:23:31, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
276:23:36, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
249:21:56, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
233:21:22, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
60:18:47, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
723:and that is all that matters
1231:
206:even from reliable sources
1177:Delete - It's vaporware.
223:by the product's vendor.
1197:Please do not modify it.
748:, this may be a case of
493:"never build" them, but
213:one of the cited sources
32:Please do not modify it.
906:AlternativesLebensglĂĽck
1143:few or no other edits
889:few or no other edits
800:Tesla Roadster (2020)
668:http://tesla.com/semi
1155:WP:Assume good faith
1145:outside this topic.
891:outside this topic.
729:if they pass GNG. -
202:are not appropriate
440:WP:Clearly notable
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1073:Snowball clause
1013:(distænt write)
783:Daniel.Cardenas
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754:WP:PROMOTION
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1141:) has made
1085:WP:NOTFORUM
1077:WP:SNOWBALL
887:) has made
842:Lepricavark
453:cold fusion
159:free images
988:WP:CRYSTAL
750:WP:TOOSOON
663:WP:CRYSTAL
645:WP:CRYSTAL
516:one source
487:WP:CRYSTAL
402:Frmorrison
196:WP:CRYSTAL
74:Tesla Semi
66:Tesla Semi
57:Iridescent
1060:Biografer
1056:TechCruch
1052:The Verge
592:works. -
458:The Verge
37:talk page
1139:contribs
1122:contribs
1075:I think
1048:LA Times
885:contribs
758:redirect
649:Retimuko
611:Retimuko
572:Retimuko
264:children
118:View log
51:snowball
39:or in a
762:sources
752:and or
746:Comment
336:discuss
329:Tarl N.
301:Agreed
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
91:protect
86:history
1151:WP:ANI
825:Sladen
720:WP:GNG
568:Delete
468:WP:IAR
448:WP:NOT
446:. The
423:Aunva6
419:WP:GNG
417:meets
368:Wega14
323:useful
285:Delete
137:Google
95:delete
1044:Slate
923:short
491:might
442:. 4.
317:Weak
255:think
180:JSTOR
141:books
125:Stats
112:views
104:watch
100:links
16:<
1183:talk
1167:talk
1135:talk
1118:talk
1093:talk
1064:talk
1054:and
1040:Keep
1031:talk
1022:Keep
1009:L3X1
1005:Keep
996:talk
984:Keep
972:talk
952:talk
931:talk
919:Keep
910:talk
898:Keep
881:talk
864:talk
855:Keep
846:talk
838:Keep
829:talk
817:Keep
808:talk
796:Keep
787:talk
779:Keep
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712:Keep
699:talk
677:talk
653:talk
627:. -
615:talk
590:WP:V
576:talk
555:talk
538:talk
524:talk
497:. -
476:talk
415:keep
406:talk
398:Keep
389:talk
381:Keep
372:talk
358:Keep
346:Keep
319:Keep
307:talk
293:talk
272:talk
266:. --
245:talk
229:talk
215:: ''
173:FENS
147:news
108:logs
82:talk
78:edit
53:keep
927:mfb
350:JFG
261:the
187:TWL
116:– (
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